Ahern is the fourth FF leader to leave office 'under a cloud of one kind or another' (wtf is wrong with FF so?) - Reynolds, Haughey and Lemass (?) before him.. looks very dodgy for the history of FF alright - Are we goldfish that we forget what bad boyos went before or should we respect it that they resigned when they did with some dignity? (I must have woke up in some generous mood, my god)

I still think there is a lot of rot to the core about FF or maybe it should be categorised as mouldiness which is a form of life which thrives and spreads in a damp climate and is ultimately a tenacious and resilient survivor though never a very sophisticated or complex class of life.

But does it matter that FF may not be sophisticated or complex? Bertie was known as the people's man and (on Paxman last night?) he was described as working tenaciously and patiently with the difficult characters around the tables at the many Northern talks but was this the magic that caved Paisley's obstinacy ? because supporters around here will always be reminded of that the words 'Ahern' and 'Paisley' should be spoken of in the same sentance with the words 'Aer Lingus', 'slots' and 'Dempsey/ignored letter to civil servant'.

Maybe Bertie was a personable chap ? - a quality that raised him somehow above the likes of Gilmore Rabitte Quinn Kenny Gormley Sargent Harney McDowell and which deserves him a place in some part of the history...

cactus flower wrote:

Beer Victor? It isn't a Bass

Here's to picking cowen apart .....

cactus flower wrote:

In terms of
mismanagement of a boom, it is hard to see how government could have
done worse: 30 million euro on a couple greyhound stadium stands.
30,000 a year on makeup to hide the red nose. Driving us down in terms
of competitivity and leaving those on low incomes rot whilst shovelling
it to himself and his friends by the bucketload.
Well gone. I hope we can bury the "cute hoor" worship along with the BA era.

well said, but we'll need to lobotomise half the country to get rid of the cute hoor worship......

Victor Meldrew wrote:

We'll need to lobotomise half the country to get rid of the cute hoor worship......

Democracy's terrible, isn't it?

Anyone see the Primetime special last night? I detected a tear in Harris' eye, I almost felt pity for him. Almost. Fintan O'Toole was there too, a lot of talk about tragic heroes from the pair of them. Fintan was the one that brought up the tragic flaw though, no such heresy from Eoghan.

I looked into tragic heroes on wikipedia, unfortunately Bertie doesn't fill the bill:

Quote :

The hero must see and understand his doom, and that his fate was revealed by his own actions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragic_hero

I'm quite surprised by all the negativity here. I'm no huge fan of Bertie, but I think some of the reactions are a bit unfair. Dismissing or ignoring his achievements might be convenient but it just isn't right. Denouncing any positive contributions as fawning sycophantry is a bit simplistic too.

Here, for example are some comments from none other than Madam herself:

Quote :

He will have a well-deserved month-long lap of honour ... he was a very good Taoiseach for almost 11 of the most progressive years - socially, politically and economically - in the modern history of this State. Unlike others, he can genuinely claim that he did the State some service. He won the admiration of the people for historic achievements in office. What's more, there was an affection for his affability, his ordinariness, his common touch ... due respect and credit

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0403/1207169211520.html

Of course, there was plenty of negative stuff too. But at least there was a bit of balance and she was hardly his greatest supporter.

the guy been in power for ten years, this is nothing but a victory for him,
a resignation ten years too late

lostexpectation wrote:

the guy been in power for ten years, this is nothing but a victory for him,
a resignation ten years too late

Isn't that a little unfair, lostexpectation? Ten years is a long time but you can hardly expect any office holder to resign before they've warmed the seat of their trousers in the job. Even Enda Kenny had several good things to say about Bertie on The News at One...

nope he was invovled in haughy corruption ten years ago, and the general poltical corruption (including planning) he should never have got the job

That Kenny must deserve the name of Enda the Eejit that I use for him. What donkey does not have the cop on to say that Ahern is leaving just as the results of his rule are coming to light. He should then ask what Magic Arse is going to do rectify the disastor. FG went from a Limerick dullard to a Mayo doopy dullard

lostexpectation wrote:

nope he was invovled in haughy corruption ten years ago, and the general poltical corruption (including planning) he should never have got the job

He came into power in 1997 which was the same year that the McCracken Tribunal was founded, as I recall - the one which first looked into Haughey's affairs. Hindsight is a wonderful gift, lostexpectation, but the fact is that he was Taoiseach for over ten years and presided over the successful signing of the Good Friday agreement and its implementation.

We are none of us as black and white as one facet of our lives might make us appear.

but i thought everyone knew about what they were up to?

are suggestion no other tasoiseach could have stood there and watched the inevitable unionist desire for devolution, 911 etc

lostexpectation wrote:

but i thought everyone knew about what they were up to?

are suggestion no other tasoiseach could have stood there and watched the inevitable unionist desire for devolution

Is it the 'dogs in the street' comment you're referring to there? I think that was made with reference to Terry Keane's almost 30 year long affair with CJ. Certainly there was an awareness (hard to hide a Charvais shirt and a big house) that CJ was living beyond his means but the general populace had no idea what was going on really and we can hardly expect those in FF in the know to do any differently than they did? They stood by their man in the same way as they have done in recent months with Bertie.


I'm not saying that no other Taoiseach could have done it, but the undeniable fact is that the Chuckle brothers are chuckling away together and that it wasn't a hypothetical taoiseach who presided over and negotiated the deal (with others, I know - I'm not excluding them) but a real one and that one was Bertie.

I'm not a Bertie apologist, by the way. I'm just surprised that there seems to be so little middle ground when it comes to discussing the man. It has yet to emerge why or how Bertie got the payments he did, or what favours if any he did in return for that money. As far as I am aware, most of it remains unspent. Certainly he shouldn't have accepted money in his position but I'm going to withhold final judgement on the man until the rest of the story is clear. Haughey I'm far less ambivalent about.
Surely the current tribunal

I was happy to find this historian's view of Bertie of all places in the Sindo.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-ahern-years/credit-where-it-is-due--and-not-due-1339620.html

John A Murphy treads the ground between demonising and sanctifying Bertie and provides and far more objective summary of his career than any other I have seen or heard.

If I was going to award a mark to Bertie on the basis of Murphy's assessment it would be a C+.

Kate P wrote:

lostexpectation wrote:

but i thought everyone knew about what they were up to?

are suggestion no other tasoiseach could have stood there and watched the inevitable unionist desire for devolution

Quote :

Is it the 'dogs in the street' comment you're referring to there?

I think that was made with reference to Terry Keane's almost 30 year long affair with CJ.

no!

Quote :

Certainly there was an awareness (hard to hide a Charvais shirt and a big house) that CJ was living beyond his means but the general populace had no idea what was going on really and we can hardly expect those in FF in the know to do any differently than they did?

well you seem to the type that looks to low standards rather then high ones.
he didn't need money he had power, as i said he should heever become taoiseach. i don't look across at fg and say well atleast its him not them, they weren't much better, it a much broader question that that.

Quote :

well you seem to the type that looks to low standards rather then high ones

You should spend a bit more time here, lostexpectation and you'll realise that I am not that type.

Quote :

he didn't need money he had power,

All taoisigh have power. Some also have charisma and some are bullies. I'm not sure what point you're making here.

Quote :

he should heever become taoiseach

Fine. But I don't think it's productive to divorce the man from his political party or his political context. Nor do I think it's realistic to ignore what good work he may have done just because he should never have had the opportunity to do it.

Quote :

i don't look across at fg and say well atleast its him not them, they weren't much better

To do so would mean being far less broadminded than you claim to be.

Quote :

it a much broader question that that.

It is a much broader question. Please clarify which aspect of 'broader' you mean.

too often, far too bloody often, if you ask me.

tonys wrote:

too often, far too bloody often, if you ask me.

Nice to hear from you tonys: are you sorted with drink, music, sofa etc.?

tonys wrote:

too often, far too bloody often, if you ask me.

?

digoutday speaks (too often)

Auditor #9 wrote:

digoutday speaks (too often)

I see. I'm quite distracted by this music and trying to remember where I've left my legwarmers and leotard. I feel a FAME! moment coming on.

cactus flower wrote:

tonys wrote:

too often, far too bloody often, if you ask me.

Nice to hear from you tonys: are you sorted with drink, music, sofa etc.?

Glass of red in hand, just finished an after dinner read of the Sunday Indo, talk about music!! and sofa, so good.

Kate P wrote:

tonys wrote:

too often, far too bloody often, if you ask me.

?

Sorry Kate, Auditor 9 got there before me.