Daniel Barenboim's comments on his website regarding the IDF attack on Gaza are worth noting.

http://www.danielbarenboim.com/journal_gaza.htm

For the last number of years he has encouraged young Palestinian and Israeli musicans to work together in his West - Eastern Divan Orchestra and is noted for his encouragement for a lasting peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, condeming Jewish settlements in the West Bank and of successive Israeli governments since the assassination of Yitzak Rabin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Barenboim

Barenboim has done wonderful work in this area. He was on either the C4 news, I think it was, a few days ago. The West-Eastern Divan Orchestra have had to cancel some concerts due to the current situation. I wholeheartedly applaud what he and the late Edward Said have tried to do with this orchestra. Excellent musicians too in that orchestra - they have played all over Europe incl. the Proms last Summer.

I have been struck this weekend by the number of high- and not-so-high profile Israeli artists who have voiced serious concerns about the policies of recent Israeli govts. Eg novelist David Grossman, whose son died while on active service a couple of years ago.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051008.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Grossman

What is the general opinion of the Israeli public though? Iheard somewhere thast they are only concerned about Palestinian casualties because they look bad in the global media. I'm sure it's a generalisation, but has there been any great amount of opposition there?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/11/gaza-israel-political-attitudes

I have a lot of time for Chris McGreal as a journalist. He wrote a devastating article on the ANC and specifically Thabo Mbeki a few years ago, which repays rereading. Above is his article on the current situation and "why Israel's war is driven by fear".

He agrees with you that opposition in Israel is fast retreating.

Israel's 'right to defend itself' in action. Study each and every one of these photographs, if you have the stomach, and see how you feel about that:


http://portail.islamboutique.fr/gaza2008/

Atticus wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/11/gaza-israel-political-attitudes

I have a lot of time for Chris McGreal as a journalist. He wrote a devastating article on the ANC and specifically Thabo Mbeki a few years ago, which repays rereading. Above is his article on the current situation and "why Israel's war is driven by fear".

He agrees with you that opposition in Israel is fast retreating.

Very good description of what it must be like to be in Israel. Barenboim' statement is also very clear.

Quote :

The developments of the past few days are extremely worrisome to me for several reasons of both humane and political natures. While it is self-evident that Israel has the right to defend itself, that it cannot and should not tolerate continuing missile attacks on its citizens, the Israeli army’s relentless and brutal bombardment of Gaza has raised a few important questions in my mind.

The first question is whether the Israeli government has the right to make all Palestinians culpable for the actions of Hamas. Is the entire population of Gaza to be held responsible for the sins of a terrorist organization? We, the Jewish people, should know and feel even more acutely than other populations that the murder of innocent civilians is inhumane and unacceptable. The Israeli military has very weakly argued that the Gaza strip is so overpopulated that it is impossible to avoid civilian deaths during their operations.

The weakness of this argument leads me to my next set of questions: if civilian deaths are unavoidable, what is the purpose of the bombardment? What, if any, is the logic behind the violence, and what does Israel hope to achieve through it? If the aim of the operation is to destroy Hamas, then the most important question to ask is whether this is an attainable goal. If not, then the whole attack is not only cruel, barbaric, and reprehensible, it is also senseless.

If on the other hand it really is possible to destroy Hamas through military operations, how does Israel envision the reaction in Gaza once this has been accomplished? One and a half million Gaza residents will not suddenly go down on their knees in reverence of the power of the Israeli army. We must not forget that before Hamas was elected by the Palestinians, it was encouraged by Israel as a tactic to weaken Arafat. Israel’s recent history leads me to believe that if Hamas is bombarded out of existence, another group will most certainly take its place, a group that would be more radical, more violent, and more full of hatred toward Israel than Hamas.

Israel cannot afford a military defeat for fear of disappearing from the map, yet history has proven that every military victory has always left Israel in a weaker political position than before because of the emergence of radical groups. I do not underestimate the difficulty of the decisions the Israeli government must make every day, nor do I underestimate the importance of Israel’s security. Nevertheless, I stand behind my conviction that the only truly viable plan for long-term security in Israel is to gain the acceptance of all of our neighbors. I wish for a return in the year 2009 of the famous intelligence always ascribed to the Jews. I wish for a return of King Solomon’s wisdom to the decision-makers in Israel that they might use it to understand that Palestinians and Israelis have equal human rights.

Palestinian violence torments Israelis and does not serve the Palestinian cause; Israeli military retaliation is inhuman, immoral, and does not guarantee Israel’s security. As I have said before, the destinies of the two peoples are inextricably linked, obliging them to live side by side. They have to decide whether they want to make of this a blessing or a curse.

The bombing has got much worse tonight. (edit cf- removed reference to Obama) I'm convinced that this is the first salvo against Iran, as well as a politically convenient act of ethnic cleansing/genocide.

cactus flower wrote:

The bombing has got much worse tonight. Obama is pointing to Iran as the "axis of evil".

Source for this enormous about-turn?

905 wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

The bombing has got much worse tonight. Obama is pointing to Iran as the "axis of evil".

Source for this enormous about-turn?

A bad translation. I've amended my post accordingly.

905 wrote:

What is the general opinion of the Israeli public though? Iheard somewhere thast they are only concerned about Palestinian casualties because they look bad in the global media. I'm sure it's a generalisation, but has there been any great amount of opposition there?

i was stunned the first time I met some in china travelling in about 1994 and they were ...
hey great you were in Jordan when peace happens we'd love to go.... I was stunned but the peace process now defunct did happen.

Like N.I. the is 80 percent of the populations who want a just solution and to get on with it ...
they have more in common with palestinians than anyone else.. often, they have friends who are arabs etc...

Their world like the Palestinians is restricted ( I am not comparing these as equal restrictions... )
there are no parties, no concerts...since any large gathering attracts suicide bombers....
my friends local cafe was bombed three times... once when he got delayed by a phone call and
just missed a deadly coffee.....

On both sides they have entrenched and plainly mad (though once we called Ian Paisley that and yet for
the good of N.I. he did eventually come to the table) minorities....such as Islamic fundementalists
and Zionist settlers.... which is the main problem....

they know what the problems are...and as my mate says ... I spend all my time abroad defending Israel
and all my time at home defending Palestine....

the army culture while unfortunately necessary is one of the worst problems in Israel because there is
a certain amount of unconcious brain washing that happens in any army to restrict the mental damage
killing people does to a human brain......

They are two very much traumatised races and like all wars.. the veil of secrecy that hides the actual
sentiments of the aggressor means that unlike us, who's future doesn't depend on it.. they stand in
bewliderment and wonder is it really necessary.... are they disarming Hamas or just killing people....

desperation for peace is probably the sentiment i would most associate.... but they know Palestinians
hate them and the can understand that....

I guess the real way to put oursleves in their situation is to say.. if N.I. Unionists aided by the British
started to constantly bomb Dublin... What would we do?

Very interesting scribe, thanks for that.

The only thing in the last line was that the cease fire was holding until November when the Israelis went into Gaza and killed 6 or 7 Hamas people.
Perhaps people in Israel are not really aware of that - the media if Jerusalem Post is anything to go by totally gung ho.

Was watching last night arabs who are Israeli citizens - apparently there are quite a lot - and they were very conflicted as they have Israeli friends but are feeling as you would expect about the bombings in Gaza.

You can see the signs of strain in some Israeli spokespersons faces in the last few days and I think they are being affected by the horror of what is happening and the shocked reaction of the world. There are others who are laughing and happy about it.

The "world leaders" make me sick, with their laughing photo opportunities, slick suits and shiny boardroom tables, they don't give a sh1t.

cactus flower wrote:

Very interesting scribe, thanks for that.

The only thing in the last line was that the cease fire was holding until November when the Israelis went into Gaza and killed 6 or 7 Hamas people.
Perhaps people in Israel are not really aware of that - the media if Jerusalem Post is anything to go by totally gung ho.

Was watching last night arabs who are Israeli citizens - apparently there are quite a lot - and they were very conflicted as they have Israeli friends but are feeling as you would expect about the bombings in Gaza.

You can see the signs of strain in some Israeli spokespersons faces in the last few days and I think they are being affected by the horror of what is happening and the shocked reaction of the world. There are others who are laughing and happy about it.

The "world leaders" make me sick, with their laughing photo opportunities, slick suits and shiny boardroom tables, they don't give a sh1t.

Perhaps people in Israel are aware of why the Israeli military say they went in to Gaza that time.

The world leaders remark is a bit judgemental, what have they done recently to make you think they don't give a shit? Why would they be any less sensitive than you?

905 wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Very interesting scribe, thanks for that.

The only thing in the last line was that the cease fire was holding until November when the Israelis went into Gaza and killed 6 or 7 Hamas people.
Perhaps people in Israel are not really aware of that - the media if Jerusalem Post is anything to go by totally gung ho.

Was watching last night arabs who are Israeli citizens - apparently there are quite a lot - and they were very conflicted as they have Israeli friends but are feeling as you would expect about the bombings in Gaza.

You can see the signs of strain in some Israeli spokespersons faces in the last few days and I think they are being affected by the horror of what is happening and the shocked reaction of the world. There are others who are laughing and happy about it.

The "world leaders" make me sick, with their laughing photo opportunities, slick suits and shiny boardroom tables, they don't give a sh1t.

Perhaps people in Israel are aware of why the Israeli military say they went in to Gaza that time.

The world leaders remark is a bit judgemental, what have they done recently to make you think they don't give a shit? Why would they be any less sensitive than you?

Yes, it is judgemental. Perhaps I've watched too much television. Perhaps it is an appropriate occasion to be judgemental. I'd say they have plenty of brass neck, or are scared of repercussions, but there is a terrible failture to act. The jocular body language and tone of these meetings is an insult to the people on the ground. Should politicians who vote for military action not be obliged to go and work in field hospitals?