Subject: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:02 pm
Tzipi Livni has made it clear that a wholesale attack on Gaza has begun. The first day killed more than 200, mainly police and civilians including children. There are demonstrations on the streets all over the middle east.
The attack has been focused on the Gaza police, not on active Hamas members, and there is speculation that this is to maximise disorder as a precondition for some kind of "regime change".
The extent to which Eygypt gave the green light to an attack against Hammas is also being asked.
Mustafa Barghouthi, former Palestinian information minister
"
Quote :
Israel is not targeting Hamas alone. Israel is targeting the whole Palestinian population, which has left 200 families with dead sons, husbands and fathers. "Gaza is left today with nothing, no bread, no oil, electricity and medication even to treat the injured people.
"This criminal attack is directed at the will of the Palestinian people. It's an effort to break the Palestinian demand for freedom, independence and justice.
"Israel is responsible for this escalation. There was a ceasefire that everybody respected, including Hamas, and it was Israel that violated that ceasefire ... to prepare the ground for this bloodshed which Israeli politicians are using as their form of competition in the Israeli elections.
"This is a criminal act, unprecedented, unacceptable and Israel would not have dared to go this far if it were not for the silence of the international community at these inhuman crimes.
"It's impossible to equate Hamas with Israel. All the rockets Hamas have shot have not killed a single Israeli till today.
"During the same year of the so-called Annapolis peace process, Israel killed 546 Palestinians, including 76 children, more than half of them in the West Bank.
"The aggression is from one side. Israel has probably the fourth-largest military in the world, it is the fourth-largest military-exporter in the world, it has nuclear heads.
"Today, it used 60 sophisticated jet fighters in Gaza who have nothing to defend themselves with.
"Israel wants this escalation to break the backbone of the Palestinian people, but they won't break us."
Israeli statements constantly reiterate claims of Iranian links with Hammas.
Hamas was elected as the Palestinian Legislative Council in 2005. A cease fire ended December 19th - Eygypt was involved in negotiations. Hamas had resumed rocket attacks ( I think ).
The US have issued a statement which effectively approves the attack.
The attacks were aimed at police stations (very explicit film, if in doubt, don't look)
Last edited by cactus flower on Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:58 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:27 pm
That lad lying on the ground with his finger pointed up in the air seems to be faking it.
What did they expect when they are firing rockets into Israel every day.
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:04 pm
There had been a ceasefire for six months, was it Israel that broke it ?
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:16 pm
Those Hamasterbaters have been firing rockets daily
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:25 pm
Auditor #9 wrote:
There had been a ceasefire for six months, was it Israel that broke it ?
Depends who you listen to. I think Hamas count blocking food supplies as breaking a cease fire.
The Palestinians (whatever did happen to their country ?) are an enormous irritant to the comfortable leaders of arab countries. I don't know enough about all this to say much. The Israeli's receive enormous US military aid and are a strategic strong point for the US in the middle east. Expect youngdan to support them. The Palestinians are scuppered, but just won't go away.
I'd say access to oil is a pretty big factor in the overall situation.
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:12 am
Lets say .....some dude comes round yer house and tells you to fuck off out to the backyard.....they're for staying in your gaff. You try to get back in by getting a few feeble neighbours to help you kick the door in. The fucker has a few tight mates that see your erstwhile buddies go a scamperin and you take refuge in the byre. How do ye get your gaff back?
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:37 am
SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:
Lets say .....some dude comes round yer house and tells you to fuck off out to the backyard.....they're for staying in your gaff. You try to get back in by getting a few feeble neighbours to help you kick the door in. The fucker has a few tight mates that see your erstwhile buddies go a scamperin and you take refuge in the byre. How do ye get your gaff back?
When they are all asleep, burn the place to the ground ?
Israelies always sleep with at least one eye open though.
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:42 am
Auditor #9 wrote:
SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:
Lets say .....some dude comes round yer house and tells you to fuck off out to the backyard.....they're for staying in your gaff. You try to get back in by getting a few feeble neighbours to help you kick the door in. The fucker has a few tight mates that see your erstwhile buddies go a scamperin and you take refuge in the byre. How do ye get your gaff back?
When they are all asleep, burn the place to the ground ?
For starters
Israelies always sleep with at least one eye open though.
And if they have only one eye..
Ex Fourth Master: Growth
Number of posts : 4226 Registration date : 2008-03-11
Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:45 am
Yeh but, they were getting bombed ?
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:47 am
They're never to blame .....always justified
Ex Fourth Master: Growth
Number of posts : 4226 Registration date : 2008-03-11
Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:53 am
Oh. Is this sectarianism all over again. Sorry. I didn't realise.
So do we have to go back 20000 years to sort this out too ?
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:58 am
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Oh. Is this sectarianism all over again. Sorry. I didn't realise.
So do we have to go back 20000 years to sort this out too ?
Number of posts : 4226 Registration date : 2008-03-11
Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:08 am
Huh. Familiar
Without the bombs of course.
Or with the bombs of course.
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:18 am
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Huh. Familiar
Without the bombs of course.
Or with the bombs of course.
and what is the topic of this thread again?
Ex Fourth Master: Growth
Number of posts : 4226 Registration date : 2008-03-11
Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:26 am
SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Huh. Familiar
Without the bombs of course.
Or with the bombs of course.
and what is the topic of this thread again?
I take your point. You'll never take mine..
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:29 am
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
Huh. Familiar
Without the bombs of course.
Or with the bombs of course.
and what is the topic of this thread again?
I take your point. You'll never take mine..
So that I don't misunderstand you......what was your point?
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:53 pm
Why?
Why now?
Why such a disproportinate response by the Isrealis?
Are the Israelis trying to box a new US administration into a corner?
Is Isreal not content with the manner it has splintered the Palestinian populations and power structures between Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon?
Does Isreal see any organised Palestinian statelet as a threat? the Isrealis, afterall, dismantled Arafat's organisation to the point of wanting to destroy his compound. Yestderday's attack seemed to be aimed at the symbols of Gaza authority structures.
At this point the Arabs, Egyptians, Persians, indeed, almost anyone you care to mention must be fed up to their back teeth with the Isrealis actions at this point in history. At every turn, to someone on the outside looking in, the Isrealis actions are unmerited and smack of nothing less than bully-boy tactics.
The argument about history and its ramifications are moot at this point. History was made yesterday; it was made the day a Palestinian farmer lost his/her land; it was made during the second world war - ad naseum. Trying to tie this conflict, and it many players, into a neat little narrative just won't work; although the authoritarians from all nations would like to wrap the narrative into a nice little tale about how the "legimate" armies always win due to the moral supriority of their aruguments as they choose historical tidbits to back-up their arguments while ignoring vast swathes of history which don't fit into wee instructive historical narratives.
I have to imagine that as Isreal takes ever bigger steps to erradicate Palestinian desires that a comensurate response to radicalism is taking place within the Palestinian community and beyond. One has to wonder just what lessons the Isreali establishment has choosen to learn from world war II.
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:53 pm
Basically they put it down to a simple desire to cripple Hamas' capacity to fire rockets, upcoming elections in Israel and using the time left before a supposedly pro-Palestinian Obama comes into power.
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:12 pm
rockyracoon wrote:
Why?
Why now?
Why such a disproportinate response by the Isrealis?
Are the Israelis trying to box a new US administration into a corner?
Is Isreal not content with the manner it has splintered the Palestinian populations and power structures between Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon?
Does Isreal see any organised Palestinian statelet as a threat? the Isrealis, afterall, dismantled Arafat's organisation to the point of wanting to destroy his compound. Yestderday's attack seemed to be aimed at the symbols of Gaza authority structures.
At this point the Arabs, Egyptians, Persians, indeed, almost anyone you care to mention must be fed up to their back teeth with the Isrealis actions at this point in history. At every turn, to someone on the outside looking in, the Isrealis actions are unmerited and smack of nothing less than bully-boy tactics.
The argument about history and its ramifications are moot at this point. History was made yesterday; it was made the day a Palestinian farmer lost his/her land; it was made during the second world war - ad naseum. Trying to tie this conflict, and it many players, into a neat little narrative just won't work; although the authoritarians from all nations would like to wrap the narrative into a nice little tale about how the "legimate" armies always win due to the moral supriority of their aruguments as they choose historical tidbits to back-up their arguments while ignoring vast swathes of history which don't fit into wee instructive historical narratives.
I have to imagine that as Isreal takes ever bigger steps to erradicate Palestinian desires that a comensurate response to radicalism is taking place within the Palestinian community and beyond. One has to wonder just what lessons the Isreali establishment has choosen to learn from world war II.
It has happened now because a cease-fire just ended because Hamas did not renew it and started launching rockets at Israel. During that cease-fire Israel prepared very good intelligence so that if the cease-fire broke down as it was always likely to do, Israel would be ready and prepared to cause massive damage to Hamas and to their military infrastructure and that is what is now going on, Israel are doing immense damage to Hamas's ability to attack Israel.
This is a war and Hamas believe they are at war with Israel, so they are in a very weak position when Israel responses with its military power when they are attacked. Israel’s military ability is far far superior to Hamas’s and it is inevitable that they will use that ability when attacked as all states would do.
What is the long term plan? Right now I don’t really think there is one from either side. Israel’s sole concern right now seems to be about Weakening Hamas’s ability to attack them. There is a lame duck PM in Israel and the US doesn’t really have a President so the opportunity for proper peace talks doesn’t exist now anyway. There is also of course the problem of divided Palestinian authority between Hamas and Fatah.
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:46 pm
The Eygyptians are reported to be firing on people trying to cross the border from Gaza to Eygypt. The Israelis have been bombing the border tunnels. Israel is talking about ground invasion.
I agree that it appears that the intermission between Bush and Obama is being used, for what imo is a disproportionate and illegal attack. It is clear from their statements that the attack has the backing of the US.
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:26 pm
These Hamas people are going to get a good ass-kicking even before the Israeli soldier gets sworn in as White House chief of staff.
Come on Obama whip some sense into those Ah-Rabs. Those Iranians are due for a whipping as well. Obama has full control on Congress and these lads are going to get it now.
For those who like Hamas, do you not think their enemy is delighted. He, who has no support seemingly is laughing and reports are that he urged Israel on.
For the truely lame brained we see Egypt is happy and they set up Hamas.
Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:39 pm
youngdan wrote:
These Hamas people are going to get a good ass-kicking even before the Israeli soldier gets sworn in as White House chief of staff.
Come on Obama whip some sense into those Ah-Rabs. Those Iranians are due for a whipping as well. Obama has full control on Congress and these lads are going to get it now.
For those who like Hamas, do you not think their enemy is delighted. He, who has no support seemingly is laughing and reports are that he urged Israel on.
For the truely lame brained we see Egypt is happy and they set up Hamas.
That's an interesting report youngdans. Hamas were saying yesterday that they believed Eygypt had deliberately made a hames of negotiations with the Israelis.
The position of the Palestinians threatens the internal stability of every arab state, and beheading them of their leadership in the past is what brought about the rise of Hamas.
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:54 pm
This Abbas is laughing and he wants control of Gaza back. Hamas appear to me to be genuine representatives of their people. The last thing the Egyptians want is to see a Hamas toppling them. Same with Jordan. Israel, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt are close allies.
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:55 pm
youngdan wrote:
This Abbas is laughing and he wants control of Gaza back. Hamas appear to me to be genuine representatives of their people. The last thing the Egyptians want is to see a Hamas toppling them. Same with Jordan. Israel, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt are close allies.
The Israeli site you linked is saying that artillery is being moved in in preparation for a ground assault on Gaza. They concede that there are legal and ethical issues about artillery bombardment of civilian areas, but that hasn't stopped them so far. This whole thing has a horrible genocidal whiff about it. There seems to be a silent consensus of international powers to let the Israelis go in and hammer the Palestinians.
Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:05 pm
Livni has been a killer throughout her career, it seems:
Quote :
Livni admits to working for Mossad Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:45:47 GMT
Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni has publicly acknowledged that she had served as an agent in Mossad for four years in Europe.
"I served for four years within Mossad," Livni told the Army Radio on Tuesday, several weeks after the publication of an article by The Sunday Times, implying her work in the Mossad when she was young.
Earlier in June, The Sunday Times reported that Livni served as a Paris agent for the Mossad in the 1980s during a series of missions it ran to kill Palestinians across Europe.
According to the report, during Livni's work in the Mossad, she traveled from her Paris base throughout Europe, seeking out Palestinians.
The report cited Livni's former colleagues as saying she was on active duty in 1983, when senior Palestine Liberation Organization official Mamoun Meraish was shot dead by two Mossad agents in Athens.
"I also followed training courses and worked overseas", the ex-Mossad agent said adding that she left Mossad after her marriage.
Livni is a candidate in a leadership election that Olmert's Kadima party is scheduled to hold by September 23.
It is hard to imagine that there won't be major upheavals across the Middle East - this is one interesting report on the changing mood:
What happened in Yemen's soccer stadium on Sunday seemed to be a microcosm of what is going on in the Arab and wider Muslim world. Mirrored in pro-Palestinian demonstrations from Casablanca to Jakarta.
The disconnect between a humiliated and suffering people and their elite, pro-Western rulers was easy for all to see. Ordinary people are tired of the Muslim world's disunity and feebleness in the face of American and Israeli dominance. They know that the Muslim world has become a laughing stock to many in the West -- a byword for poverty, backwardness and weakness. A region whose plentiful resources the West can exploit precisely because of that disunity and lack of strong leadership.
Ordinary people have had enough of the humiliation, enough of the impunity that the West and Israel seem to enjoy. They want all that to stop, they want their pride and self-respect back. And they know that their pro-western leaders are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
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Subject: Re: The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way
The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way