Great MN posts of 2009

I've just remembered to stick a thread together of what I or any of the rest of ye would consider Great Posts of MN in 2009. We can sort them towards the end of the year if we're all still alive and publish them as a ramble down memory lane of the year.

Ronald Binge's big post on the Weakness SWOT thread goes first. Reading through the thread there are some fine posts in there in general really. A flaking thread some people might say.

Ronald Binge wrote:

This is based purely on my own perception and experience.

https://machinenation.forumakers.com/economy-business-and-finance-f8/w-biggest-weaknesses-in-ireland-swot-at-edo-s-suggestion-t1796.htm#59293

Ireland is a country of what was described by Scott Peck of Road less Traveled fame as "Rugged individuals". We have an extremely weak perception of any responsibility to our fellow citizen and we don't do the shared citizenship thing at all, really. I've been involved in local politics for ten years and the most common thing that I hear at the door is "What will they do for me?". I didn't go into politics for porkbarrelism but that's the way an awful lot of people think. I have drawn my own conclusion about the ability of any of us to effect structural change here. Not possible.

Irish Nationality is strongly felt but it is defined as being on football terms. "We are Irish and we are great" could be one way of summing it up. Terence Trent D'Arby inadvertently caught it in one though when he was a tax exile and blew his career by making a great but incredibly self indulgent album by stating that "Ireland is the world's smallest country with the world's biggest ego". Most of us really believe that the world is on standby waiting to hear our every word.

In addition, groupthink is engendered here. Witness politics.ie currently working itself into a lather over Israel and Palestine. One poster has appointed themselves as the thought police for everyone else, and intends to go into shops next Saturday to "educate" the shoppers and owners if they have even the smidgen of Israeli produce there.

As for the recreation of the Irish language as the real first official language of this country, we are wasting our time. No amount of teenage gaelgoirs slapping "Gaeilge Anois!" stickers on road signs will change this. It is an annoyance and an utter waste of time. We would be better off consolidating as best we can those places that do use the language in reality, shore it up and rethink the whole project. Irish language and culture are worthwhile, but Irish is not and never will be the spoken language of this nation again.

Our relative size mitigates against us in trying to create a more egalitarian and fairer society. In a small country with a small population, we cannot stand by ourselves and create a welfare state and a just society, we need the backup of a larger entity like the European Union. However, our own little Irelanders have slapped Europe in the face and no one outside Ireland that I can think of with any intelligence or without an ultra left wing agenda understands the frenzy we whipped ourselves into over imagined conscription or military alliances, as if the military was the only industry of any size in say France, Germany or Britain and was the driver of the European Union.

Irish freedom was a great thing but inevitably our own Gombeen men took over. It is more than disingenous to think that only those on the Pro treaty side sold out the Revolution. There is a long and inglorious history of small business people who exploited the hell out of their workers in the long years between independence and prosperity. Most of those were eating the altar rails and provided most of those who lorded it over the ordinary people of Ireland in the civil service, the teaching profession, the medical profession and the police. In turn, as Kevin O'Higgins noted, we were the most conservative revolutionaries ever to succeed in overthrowing a government. Look at just how hard the oldest generation are. No loans, no softness or no comfort ever informed their lives and they would virtually cut each other's throats for the smallest of reasons. There is a long hard tradition behind the land hunger that still created the property bubble. We didn't lick it off the stones, our great grandparents and grandparents and parents created the road map that we followed religiously.

There is a remarkable intolerance for difference here. I am reminded of the comment made to me once that the English father of someone who was very important to me once upon a time. "Marjorie's people have been here for three hundred and fifty years and the locals still think of them as blow-ins". We do not tolerate the "stranger" in reality and our recent immigrants will have had plenty of chance to see the iron behind the bull of "Cead Mile Failte". Unless you keep your head down and don't cross those who see themselves as the pure ones you will have a hard life. No wonder there is a sean-fhocail of "Whatever you say, say nothing". Cuteness and smartness rules the roost and a great survival tactic here is never, ever wear your heart on your sleeve if you ever break any of the cosy consensus rules that keeps this small place on the edge of the Atlantic going.

Great stuff, I agree with a lot of it, some not, but some hard things to say, said well.

cactus flower wrote:

Great stuff, I agree with a lot of it, some not, but some hard things to say, said well.

Yes. Often if it's said well then it's enough. It was a breathless piece I thought. Watch out for Zhou Enlai and Squire if he comes back.

EVM your enormous post on the Moon before Christmas should nearly be included for this year. Size doesn't always count though. I thought youngdan's explanations of the Bond market were good today. He's already explained it about four times but no one was listening.

Zhou had a great one on Ganley there too recently.

Oh god no. That was a horrendous post Audi. I was twisted drunk ...

Wow - that was good typing for a pissed guy at the very leasht

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Oh god no. That was a horrendous post Audi. I was twisted drunk ...

In vino veritas as they say...

cookiemonster wrote:

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Oh god no. That was a horrendous post Audi. I was twisted drunk ...

In vino veritas as they say...

Oh bolloks. Youngdan will have a field day with that now....

I stand by the post though. Capricorn out.

If I was a self-loathing f**k with very little idea of where I am and where I came from I'd thoroughly agree with Ronald......what utter shit.

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

If I was a self-loathing f**k with very little idea of where I am and where I came from I'd thoroughly agree with Ronald......what utter shit.

It's great to see a bit of passion here!

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

If I was a self-loathing f**k with very little idea of where I am and where I came from I'd thoroughly agree with Ronald......what utter shit.

Whether it would make a difference to RBs overall view or not, I don't know, but that post is from a set of four SWOT threads on our strengths, weaknesses opportunities and threats. It is inevitably all negative as its from the Weaknesses thread.

That may not affect how you feel about it all the same.

C'mon now Cactus I'm not blind to our failures and could quote all sort of Irishmen who trotted out the same selfexaminatory rubbish from Sean O'Faolain on the gombeen replacement to Sarah Carey's amble forth on the Irish language but it dont change jack...

and O'Faolain was right

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

If I was a self-loathing f**k with very little idea of where I am and where I came from I'd thoroughly agree with Ronald......what utter shit.

Coming from someone who wants to keep the H-Blocks, that's a bit harsh.

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

C'mon now Cactus I'm not blind to our failures and could quote all sort of Irishmen who trotted out the same selfexaminatory rubbish from Sean O'Faolain on the gombeen replacement to Sarah Carey's amble forth on the Irish language but it dont change jack...

and O'Faolain was right

You've been away too long SeathrúnC. Will you go at those threads yourself?

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

If I was a self-loathing f**k with very little idea of where I am and where I came from I'd thoroughly agree with Ronald......what utter shit.

Coming from someone who wants to keep the H-Blocks, that's a bit harsh.

Just like Kilmainham...as i said ..I know where we came from..should they throw the block on which Emmett lost his head into the Liffey?

Auditor #9 wrote:

I've just remembered to stick a thread together of what I or any of the rest of ye would consider Great Posts of MN in 2009. We can sort them towards the end of the year if we're all still alive and publish them as a ramble down memory lane of the year.

Ronald Binge's big post on the Weakness SWOT thread goes first. Reading through the thread there are some fine posts in there in general really. A flaking thread some people might say.

Ronald Binge wrote:

This is based purely on my own perception and experience.

https://machinenation.forumakers.com/economy-business-and-finance-f8/w-biggest-weaknesses-in-ireland-swot-at-edo-s-suggestion-t1796.htm#59293

Ireland is a country of what was described by Scott Peck of Road less Traveled fame as "Rugged individuals". We have an extremely weak perception of any responsibility to our fellow citizen and we don't do the shared citizenship thing at all, really. I've been involved in local politics for ten years and the most common thing that I hear at the door is "What will they do for me?". I didn't go into politics for porkbarrelism but that's the way an awful lot of people think. I have drawn my own conclusion about the ability of any of us to effect structural change here. Not possible.

Irish Nationality is strongly felt but it is defined as being on football terms. "We are Irish and we are great" could be one way of summing it up. Terence Trent D'Arby inadvertently caught it in one though when he was a tax exile and blew his career by making a great but incredibly self indulgent album by stating that "Ireland is the world's smallest country with the world's biggest ego". Most of us really believe that the world is on standby waiting to hear our every word.

In addition, groupthink is engendered here. Witness politics.ie currently working itself into a lather over Israel and Palestine. One poster has appointed themselves as the thought police for everyone else, and intends to go into shops next Saturday to "educate" the shoppers and owners if they have even the smidgen of Israeli produce there.

As for the recreation of the Irish language as the real first official language of this country, we are wasting our time. No amount of teenage gaelgoirs slapping "Gaeilge Anois!" stickers on road signs will change this. It is an annoyance and an utter waste of time. We would be better off consolidating as best we can those places that do use the language in reality, shore it up and rethink the whole project. Irish language and culture are worthwhile, but Irish is not and never will be the spoken language of this nation again.

Our relative size mitigates against us in trying to create a more egalitarian and fairer society. In a small country with a small population, we cannot stand by ourselves and create a welfare state and a just society, we need the backup of a larger entity like the European Union. However, our own little Irelanders have slapped Europe in the face and no one outside Ireland that I can think of with any intelligence or without an ultra left wing agenda understands the frenzy we whipped ourselves into over imagined conscription or military alliances, as if the military was the only industry of any size in say France, Germany or Britain and was the driver of the European Union.

Irish freedom was a great thing but inevitably our own Gombeen men took over. It is more than disingenous to think that only those on the Pro treaty side sold out the Revolution. There is a long and inglorious history of small business people who exploited the hell out of their workers in the long years between independence and prosperity. Most of those were eating the altar rails and provided most of those who lorded it over the ordinary people of Ireland in the civil service, the teaching profession, the medical profession and the police. In turn, as Kevin O'Higgins noted, we were the most conservative revolutionaries ever to succeed in overthrowing a government. Look at just how hard the oldest generation are. No loans, no softness or no comfort ever informed their lives and they would virtually cut each other's throats for the smallest of reasons. There is a long hard tradition behind the land hunger that still created the property bubble. We didn't lick it off the stones, our great grandparents and grandparents and parents created the road map that we followed religiously.

There is a remarkable intolerance for difference here. I am reminded of the comment made to me once that the English father of someone who was very important to me once upon a time. "Marjorie's people have been here for three hundred and fifty years and the locals still think of them as blow-ins". We do not tolerate the "stranger" in reality and our recent immigrants will have had plenty of chance to see the iron behind the bull of "Cead Mile Failte". Unless you keep your head down and don't cross those who see themselves as the pure ones you will have a hard life. No wonder there is a sean-fhocail of "Whatever you say, say nothing". Cuteness and smartness rules the roost and a great survival tactic here is never, ever wear your heart on your sleeve if you ever break any of the cosy consensus rules that keeps this small place on the edge of the Atlantic going.

My take on that post would be that it is almost an entirely negative view of Ireland and as perceived by the poster of “the Irish”. It is a view, I think, held by a not insubstantial minority in Ireland, perhaps as much as 30% of the population and I think probably the majority of those who post on political web sites.

I see it as the view of someone who considers themselves an “outsider” in their own country, of one who feels excluded by the “insiders” or gombeen majority as they, without the least hint of bitterness, so often and so eloquently express it.

Rather than being valid comment on any inherent weaknesses of Ireland or the Irish, this reasoning could equally be seen as the only means by which the constant minority can explain to themselves the lack of popular support for their views.

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

If I was a self-loathing f**k with very little idea of where I am and where I came from I'd thoroughly agree with Ronald......what utter shit.

and that's another way of putting it.

It was a good post by EVM but I had said the same thing a few posts prior. It was Ibis who had a different theory about the mechanics of leaving earth orbit and gaining lunar orbit, the disagreements were on other
aspects of the mission



However the definition of a good post is usually a waste of time because if you disagree then you are going to consider it rubbish. If you agree then any tripe sounds good

A good post therefore should be one on which you disagree maybe but which might get you to second guess yourself on your own opinions.

I think I recently saw a post where a poster reconsidered his position on a topic because of Ibis.(Hasn't happened to me yet) Ibis post was so good and he had respect for Ibis's other positions that he changed his viewpoint. That was a good post but it was yonder.

youngdan wrote:

It was a good post by EVM but I had said the same thing a few posts prior. It was Ibis who had a different theory about the mechanics of leaving earth orbit and gaining lunar orbit, the disagreements were on other
aspects of the mission



However the definition of a good post is usually a waste of time because if you disagree then you are going to consider it rubbish. If you agree then any tripe sounds good

A good post therefore should be one on which you disagree maybe but which might get you to second guess yourself on your own opinions.

I think I recently saw a post where a poster reconsidered his position on a topic because of Ibis.(Hasn't happened to me yet) Ibis post was so good and he had respect for Ibis's other positions that he changed his viewpoint. That was a good post but it was yonder.

Twas myself. I would usually dismiss defence of the EU on most things automatically based on source, but ibis is an honourable poster. He refuted a claim that the refusal to sign off the EU accounts was based on corrupt practices. I went, on strength of that, to research, and now I know it wasn't true, despite having held it as a kind of received trusim for some years. Actually, in fairness, tonys' posts on the Tribunal always contained facts, while usually interpreted in a, shall we say, unique way, that could be relied on. If he said something wasn't the case factually, it usually wasn't, interpretation differences aside. It's pretty rare though to be able to trust the word of a political opponent regardless of differences.

Yes it was you and your post stuck in my mind. It is a rare event for anyone on these sites to have an open mind and also nobody ever wants to admit that they might be wrong on anything.Maybe it is the cyber version of never backing down. In the real world that stance has consequences but here they don't

Something similar is happening on the EU thread here, youngdan, where Hermes says he is also learning about the EU.

At this juncture it might be worth pointing out that a good post is never necessarily something you like because to define something as good requires objective standards whereas something you like or agree meets only subjective standards.

Quote :

It is a rare event for anyone on these sites to have an open mind and also nobody ever wants to admit that they might be wrong on anything.Maybe it is the cyber version of never backing down. In the real world that stance has consequences but here they don't

I've often admitted to getting things wrong (mostly again because of ibis and what I've learned from him about the EU) and many other posters do the same on a regular basis. It's not about backing down - and that's borne out in the generally unconfrontational nature of chat here, it's about discussion and learning. The vision that the site is based upon is not about being right, but about learning how the various machines work, looking under the bonnets of social, political, environmental and even mechanical structures. That's why ad hominem attacks are rapped on the knuckles. They distract from what most people come here for, are tiresome and frustrating.

Thats the theory all right

Well, my view of Ronald Binge's post is that I don't agree with the content, and said so beyond, but it conveys his feelings very clearly and he took time out to put them down comprehensively. It was also entirely on topic in terms of the thread - Ireland's biggest weaknesses. Did he post into the Strengths as well I wonder? Is anyone who disagrees with it going to answer it in full? i hope so.

cactus flower wrote:

Well, my view of Ronald Binge's post is that I don't agree with the content, and said so beyond, but it conveys his feelings very clearly and he took time out to put them down comprehensively. It was also entirely on topic in terms of the thread - Ireland's biggest weaknesses. Did he post into the Strengths as well I wonder? Is anyone who disagrees with it going to answer it in full? i hope so.

As he says himself, his post is based entirely on his perception & his experience.
How can you or why would you argue against someone’s perceptions, he offers no factual evidence, nor in fairness does he make a more general claim for his notions, other than being his notions.
He feels what he feels, beginning, middle and end of his story.

tonys wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Well, my view of Ronald Binge's post is that I don't agree with the content, and said so beyond, but it conveys his feelings very clearly and he took time out to put them down comprehensively. It was also entirely on topic in terms of the thread - Ireland's biggest weaknesses. Did he post into the Strengths as well I wonder? Is anyone who disagrees with it going to answer it in full? i hope so.

As he says himself, his post is based entirely on his perception & his experience.
How can you or why would you argue against someone’s perceptions, he offers no factual evidence, nor in fairness does he make a more general claim for his notions, other than being his notions.
He feels what he feels, beginning, middle and end of his story.

He not only tells us how he feels, but also tells us how (he believes) we, the Irish, feel.

cactus flower wrote:

tonys wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Well, my view of Ronald Binge's post is that I don't agree with the content, and said so beyond, but it conveys his feelings very clearly and he took time out to put them down comprehensively. It was also entirely on topic in terms of the thread - Ireland's biggest weaknesses. Did he post into the Strengths as well I wonder? Is anyone who disagrees with it going to answer it in full? i hope so.

As he says himself, his post is based entirely on his perception & his experience.
How can you or why would you argue against someone’s perceptions, he offers no factual evidence, nor in fairness does he make a more general claim for his notions, other than being his notions.
He feels what he feels, beginning, middle and end of his story.

He not only tells us how he feels, but also tells us how (he believes) we, the Irish, feel.

And as I already said one possible explanation for his perception of the “Irish” is that the alternative of admitting to himself the possibility that in fact it’s actually “Johnny” who is out of step, is too appalling a vista to contemplate. If this is the case, he wouldn’t be on his own there.