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 Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme

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PostSubject: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme EmptySun Jan 04, 2009 9:21 pm

A number of people have separately pointed out that they feel the current situation in Gaza is comparable in some ways to the Warsaw Uprising.

There is a television programme on the Uprising tonight (Sunday) on RTE 2 at 8.00 p.m.
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PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme EmptySun Jan 04, 2009 9:27 pm

I wonder how apt these things are?

I remember in 2006 the BBC doing a brilliant four-part documentary on the Suez canal crisis, to mark its 50th anniversary. Of course all sorts of comparison were made between that little colonial disaster and the then dire situation in Iraq.
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PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme EmptySun Jan 04, 2009 9:34 pm

905 wrote:
I wonder how apt these things are?

I remember in 2006 the BBC doing a brilliant four-part documentary on the Suez canal crisis, to mark its 50th anniversary. Of course all sorts of comparison were made between that little colonial disaster and the then dire situation in Iraq.

Well, the programme might give some idea of how apt or not the comparison is. Warsaw was very different in all kinds of ways, but people still see some factors in common. The population was trapped and fought street to street against a heavily armed military force. I've read about the uprising, and seen a very good Polish film based on it, but maybe after I've seen the film on RTE I'll change my mind about any similarities.
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PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme EmptySun Jan 04, 2009 11:08 pm

Starting now.
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PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme EmptySun Jan 04, 2009 11:15 pm

They seem fond to villify the Ruskis.
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PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme EmptySun Jan 04, 2009 11:16 pm

Godforsaken.
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PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme EmptySun Jan 04, 2009 11:55 pm

evercloserunion wrote:
They seem fond to villify the Ruskis.

They're right to do so. Okay, the Rising was premature, but the Russians were happy to let them die, and refused British and American repeated requests to be allowed to use Russian territory to land and refuel after dropping supplies to the besieged rebels. Many British airmen lost their lives in the heroic attempt to get supplies to what they already knew was a hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned Polish Resistance, having flown all the way from Northern Italy, and not a few of them as a result of deliberate Russian obstinacy in refusal. The evil bastard Stalin (for that is what he was) was happy to see them be wiped out, all the better to control the place afterwards. Just as he had Free Polish Ministers murdered at the end of the war, just as he ordered the Katyn massacre before Barbarossa, just as he wiped out the Polish 'intelligentsia' when in control. The Russians were bastards.
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PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme EmptyMon Jan 05, 2009 12:27 am

toxic avenger wrote:
evercloserunion wrote:
They seem fond to villify the Ruskis.

They're right to do so. Okay, the Rising was premature, but the Russians were happy to let them die, and refused British and American repeated requests to be allowed to use Russian territory to land and refuel after dropping supplies to the besieged rebels. Many British airmen lost their lives in the heroic attempt to get supplies to what they already knew was a hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned Polish Resistance, having flown all the way from Northern Italy, and not a few of them as a result of deliberate Russian obstinacy in refusal. The evil bastard Stalin (for that is what he was) was happy to see them be wiped out, all the better to control the place afterwards. Just as he had Free Polish Ministers murdered at the end of the war, just as he ordered the Katyn massacre before Barbarossa, just as he wiped out the Polish 'intelligentsia' when in control. The Russians were bastards.

Agree with all that, except Stalin did not represent all Russians, and plenty of Russians were murdered by him and his supporters. He nearly destroyed the Red Army by sending thousands of experienced officers to Siberia.
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PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme EmptyMon Jan 05, 2009 12:38 am

cactus flower wrote:
toxic avenger wrote:
evercloserunion wrote:
They seem fond to villify the Ruskis.

They're right to do so. Okay, the Rising was premature, but the Russians were happy to let them die, and refused British and American repeated requests to be allowed to use Russian territory to land and refuel after dropping supplies to the besieged rebels. Many British airmen lost their lives in the heroic attempt to get supplies to what they already knew was a hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned Polish Resistance, having flown all the way from Northern Italy, and not a few of them as a result of deliberate Russian obstinacy in refusal. The evil bastard Stalin (for that is what he was) was happy to see them be wiped out, all the better to control the place afterwards. Just as he had Free Polish Ministers murdered at the end of the war, just as he ordered the Katyn massacre before Barbarossa, just as he wiped out the Polish 'intelligentsia' when in control. The Russians were bastards.

Agree with all that, except Stalin did not represent all Russians, and plenty of Russians were murdered by him and his supporters. He nearly destroyed the Red Army by sending thousands of experienced officers to Siberia.

Granted. When I say they're right to vilify the Russians, I mean they're right to vilify the Russians' actions as ordered by Stalin, not that the Russian people weren't just as much, if not more so, victims of his.

I must add here a high recommendation for a film by Andrzej Wajda from the late 50s called 'Kanal' about the Rising, following resistance fighters as they descended into the sewers to escape the Germans. I saw it only once, as a kid many years ago on Channel 4, and haven't seen it since, but I remember it well, it's a film that haunted me.
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PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme EmptyMon Jan 05, 2009 12:44 am

toxic avenger wrote:
evercloserunion wrote:
They seem fond to villify the Ruskis.

They're right to do so. Okay, the Rising was premature, but the Russians were happy to let them die, and refused British and American repeated requests to be allowed to use Russian territory to land and refuel after dropping supplies to the besieged rebels. Many British airmen lost their lives in the heroic attempt to get supplies to what they already knew was a hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned Polish Resistance, having flown all the way from Northern Italy, and not a few of them as a result of deliberate Russian obstinacy in refusal. The evil bastard Stalin (for that is what he was) was happy to see them be wiped out, all the better to control the place afterwards. Just as he had Free Polish Ministers murdered at the end of the war, just as he ordered the Katyn massacre before Barbarossa, just as he wiped out the Polish 'intelligentsia' when in control. The Russians were bastards.
I'm no fan of Stalin or the Soviets but a lot of this is speculation. For one we can't be sure why he waited outside Warsaw for so long. It is ironic that the Russians are criticized for not entering Warsaw themselves, when in fact the ideal situation for the uprising organizers would have been to take back Warsaw without Russian help. IIRC the Allies stopped just short of Paris in order to let the French Resistance and Free French Army take back the city for themselves, and this was considered a noble and admirable act. It is the height of hypocrisy, therefore, to criticize the Soviets for acting similarly in Warsaw.
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PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme EmptyMon Jan 05, 2009 12:46 am

Yes, that's the film that I mentioned. This is the only still I can find. One of my top 30 films, I think.



Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme Kanal%2010
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PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme EmptyMon Jan 05, 2009 12:49 am

evercloserunion wrote:
toxic avenger wrote:
evercloserunion wrote:
They seem fond to villify the Ruskis.

They're right to do so. Okay, the Rising was premature, but the Russians were happy to let them die, and refused British and American repeated requests to be allowed to use Russian territory to land and refuel after dropping supplies to the besieged rebels. Many British airmen lost their lives in the heroic attempt to get supplies to what they already knew was a hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned Polish Resistance, having flown all the way from Northern Italy, and not a few of them as a result of deliberate Russian obstinacy in refusal. The evil bastard Stalin (for that is what he was) was happy to see them be wiped out, all the better to control the place afterwards. Just as he had Free Polish Ministers murdered at the end of the war, just as he ordered the Katyn massacre before Barbarossa, just as he wiped out the Polish 'intelligentsia' when in control. The Russians were bastards.
I'm no fan of Stalin or the Soviets but a lot of this is speculation. For one we can't be sure why he waited outside Warsaw for so long. It is ironic that the Russians are criticized for not entering Warsaw themselves, when in fact the ideal situation for the uprising organizers would have been to take back Warsaw without Russian help. IIRC the Allies stopped just short of Paris in order to let the French Resistance and Free French Army take back the city for themselves, and this was considered a noble and admirable act. It is the height of hypocrisy, therefore, to criticize the Soviets for acting similarly in Warsaw.

To the best of my memory, the population of Warsaw begged for help from the Russians. Was that the case with Paris?
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PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme EmptyMon Jan 05, 2009 12:57 am

evercloserunion wrote:
toxic avenger wrote:
evercloserunion wrote:
They seem fond to villify the Ruskis.

They're right to do so. Okay, the Rising was premature, but the Russians were happy to let them die, and refused British and American repeated requests to be allowed to use Russian territory to land and refuel after dropping supplies to the besieged rebels. Many British airmen lost their lives in the heroic attempt to get supplies to what they already knew was a hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned Polish Resistance, having flown all the way from Northern Italy, and not a few of them as a result of deliberate Russian obstinacy in refusal. The evil bastard Stalin (for that is what he was) was happy to see them be wiped out, all the better to control the place afterwards. Just as he had Free Polish Ministers murdered at the end of the war, just as he ordered the Katyn massacre before Barbarossa, just as he wiped out the Polish 'intelligentsia' when in control. The Russians were bastards.
I'm no fan of Stalin or the Soviets but a lot of this is speculation. For one we can't be sure why he waited outside Warsaw for so long. It is ironic that the Russians are criticized for not entering Warsaw themselves, when in fact the ideal situation for the uprising organizers would have been to take back Warsaw without Russian help. IIRC the Allies stopped just short of Paris in order to let the French Resistance and Free French Army take back the city for themselves, and this was considered a noble and admirable act. It is the height of hypocrisy, therefore, to criticize the Soviets for acting similarly in Warsaw.

I deliberately didn't say any of that. Nothing in my post is speculation, either. If you read my post again you'll note that I carefully avoided all mention of that one allegation, being fully aware of the arguments both ways on the issue. I confined my point to the deliberate decision by Stalin not to allow the RAF to use Russian territory to land in, thus limiting supplies and resulting in the deaths of many RAF airmen. I did not mention the halt of the Red Army. It is, however, an incontrovertible fact that Stalin was happy to see the Polish Home Army and Government wiped out, knowing as he did the threat that they posed to the post-War Russian supremacy, as evidenced by the examples I gave of his actions elsewhere. It is also uncontroversial to note that the Russians gave no aid or supplies by air to Warsaw, despite being a stone's throw away, while the British went to the extreme of flying on virtual suicide missions from Italy.


Last edited by toxic avenger on Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme EmptyMon Jan 05, 2009 12:58 am

cactus flower wrote:
evercloserunion wrote:
toxic avenger wrote:
evercloserunion wrote:
They seem fond to villify the Ruskis.

They're right to do so. Okay, the Rising was premature, but the Russians were happy to let them die, and refused British and American repeated requests to be allowed to use Russian territory to land and refuel after dropping supplies to the besieged rebels. Many British airmen lost their lives in the heroic attempt to get supplies to what they already knew was a hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned Polish Resistance, having flown all the way from Northern Italy, and not a few of them as a result of deliberate Russian obstinacy in refusal. The evil bastard Stalin (for that is what he was) was happy to see them be wiped out, all the better to control the place afterwards. Just as he had Free Polish Ministers murdered at the end of the war, just as he ordered the Katyn massacre before Barbarossa, just as he wiped out the Polish 'intelligentsia' when in control. The Russians were bastards.
I'm no fan of Stalin or the Soviets but a lot of this is speculation. For one we can't be sure why he waited outside Warsaw for so long. It is ironic that the Russians are criticized for not entering Warsaw themselves, when in fact the ideal situation for the uprising organizers would have been to take back Warsaw without Russian help. IIRC the Allies stopped just short of Paris in order to let the French Resistance and Free French Army take back the city for themselves, and this was considered a noble and admirable act. It is the height of hypocrisy, therefore, to criticize the Soviets for acting similarly in Warsaw.

To the best of my memory, the population of Warsaw begged for help from the Russians. Was that the case with Paris?
I can't be sure cactus, I wasn't there. I would be interested to know how they begged the Russians for help though, considering they were being chased underground and the Russians weren't even in the city. Besides, the troops had just finished a very long march. Taking a city is difficult enough, even moreso when you have strong German entrenchments backed up by massive artillery fire. To enter Warsaw while exhausted and in these conditions would have been suicidal.

All considered, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the Allies would not have done the same had they been in the Soviets' position.
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PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme EmptyMon Jan 05, 2009 1:05 am

Quote :

I deliberately didn't say any of that. If you read my post again
you'll note that I carefully avoided all mention of that one
allegation, being fully aware of the arguments both ways on the issue.
I confined my point to the deliberate decision by Stalin not to allow
the RAF to use Russian territory to land in, thus limiting supplies and
resulting in the deaths of many RAF airmen. I did not mention the halt
of the Red Army. It is, however, an incontrovertible fact that Stalin
was happy to see the Polish Home Army and Government wiped out, knowing
as he did the threat that they posed to the post-War Russian supremacy,
as evidenced by the examples I gave of his actions elsewhere. It is
also uncontroversial to note that the Russians gave no aid or supplies
by air to Warsaw, despite being a stone's throw away, while the British
went to the extreme of flying on virtual suicide missions from Italy.
Regarding the aid and supplies, the Russians took a hit in WWII that no Brit or Yank would ever understand. They were devastated by the initial German onslaught both economically and in terms of human casualties. I would think twice before suggesting that they had food and supplies to drop into enemy hands.

Regarding letting the RAF refuel, it was probably more a political decision than anything. Stalin was well aware that outside the narrow context of the war he and the West were enemies, and I would be nervous about letting a powerful enemy fly through my territory, maybe Stalin was of the same mind. In any case it's not as if he actively prevented Allied air forces from flying over the city.

Most of your claims are based on a negative image of the Russians painted by the massacres and other atrocities committed by Stalin which leads to the presumption that where the Russians acted they acted on sinister hidden motives. That's fair enough, but don't forget Dresden or Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
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PostSubject: Re: Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme   Warsaw Uprising - RTE Programme EmptyMon Jan 05, 2009 1:09 am

So who got to form the Polish Government, after the uprising was defeated?