Some of you may have noticed that pro Israeli posters appear on sites eg P.ie and go at it like dogs with a bone after the recent Israeli annihilation efforts in Palestine. If you thought that they were Mossad Israeli goverment hacks etc you may not have been wrong.

Quote :

Israel’s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by
supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide
of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee
diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and
European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can
place supportive messages. In the past week nearly 5,000
members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded
special “megaphone” software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms
or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student
team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to
flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an
opinion survey or the course of a debate

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article693911.ece

Ah, you worry too much about P.ie. You know what they're like there. There's no Israeli apologists here; I often felt the need to do a devil's advocate for them... But no Mossad agent am I.

You must not confuse a social movement with a (counter?)-terrorist unit. Many innocently still belive in an Israel. If you can show to me that the level of support for Israel has gone up on P.ie and other sites then I will pay this more notice.

As wars go, the Palestinains have had a better old propaganda war, at least from my perspective. Is it not only fair for the Israelis to fight fire with fire?

They all sound too much alike. They all have the same answers to the hard questions but strangely fall silent when a similar conundrum is put to them draped in a different manner of speaking.

Ah, you make the accusation of sock puppetry. I'm inclined to trust them myself, and fair play to them for defending such actions, can't be easy. Unless Mossad sends a booklet around.

905 wrote:

Ah, you make the accusation of sock puppetry. I'm inclined to trust them myself, and fair play to them for defending such actions, can't be easy. Unless Mossad sends a booklet around.

If they can claim to text the potential victims of the their soon-to-come air raids.............

No its just an interesting point. see Jidf.org for a one man war cyber war Did anyone notice the nice sounding Israeli officer with the smooth Brit accent on SKY news and all the Israeli war girls with nice lipstick and eye liner being used as spokespeople. I nearly puked yesterday when one was laughing and acting like she was on MTV awards.

On a serious note they are so amazing slick at pr they are worth watching for that alone.

A friend of mine years ago did his Israeli military service doing photo reconnaissance flights over Syrian border. Two minute limit or the SAMs would be flying. He was a good guy the whole experience scared the shit out of him. But in the end of the day the civilians of Israel are all combatants left, right or middle they are forced to do their military service and can be called back. Of course their are conscientious objectors but far too few these days.

Oh, here we, go. 'We the (fill in the blank) are the true underdogs of the situation, ignored by the rest of the world, we struggle on... alone'. The Palestinains claim to be the trod-upon and ignored and so too do the Israelis. If I'm a judge (and I'm not) the Palestinians win the media war. Lip-sticked Israelis are few and far between on the irish Times pages I'm afriad.

Isd Natalie Piortman Israeli? Almost enough to convert oneself.

I seen that SKy news dude you're talking about.....I thought it was George Best's young cub for a sec......what's next?....carpet bombing to the dulcet tones of a John-Peel clone?

Frightened Albanian wrote:

Some of you may have noticed that pro Israeli posters appear on sites eg P.ie and go at it like dogs with a bone after the recent Israeli annihilation efforts in Palestine. If you thought that they were Mossad Israeli goverment hacks etc you may not have been wrong.

Quote :

Israel’s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by
supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide
of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee
diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and
European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can
place supportive messages. In the past week nearly 5,000
members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded
special “megaphone” software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms
or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student
team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to
flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an
opinion survey or the course of a debate

[url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article693911.ece

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article693911.ece[/quote[/url]]

You're not wrong about this - there is at least one self-professed former Mossad agent posting on p.ie - the modus operandi is clear: to descend on threads and drown out all discussion with lengthy posts most of which resolutely fail to deal with the points and questions raised by other posters. It's a bit like an encouter with The Borg.

If Palestine has won the media war, then I must have completely missed it. Media coverage of this issue is so outrageously pro Israel it's almost an accessory to the murder. The truth is more that, imo, most people are not fooled by it and retain a sense of fairness and normal human outrage at what is going on. Palestine is another one of those issues which clearly shows how the media is really little more than the establishment's mouthpiece and completely out of touch with its own readership/viewers. Wealthy people in Ireland are benefitting far more from the industrial military complex at the heart of the Palestinian situation than is ever publicly discussed and where wealthy people are concerned, the media is always on their side.

I wonder what the families of Palestinian children murdered in this latest cowardly act of Israeli agression would feel on hearing that there are people elsewhere whimisically entertaining themselves by adopting a pro Israeli position merely for the sake of playing devil's advocate. Once again I am mystified and disgusted by this eulogising of evil people fronting up an indefensible position - as if there was something clever or admirable involved. Why do so many men in particular seem to think it is an accomplishment to be good at lying? People are being maimed and killed in an illegal war started by the Israelis several decades ago. There is no justification for this sort of twisted praise.

I'm almost offended that we have not been trolled here, although the site has certainly been viewed from Israel over the last week on several occasions.

905, you must be doing such a good job as devils advocate that they don't feel the need.

I agree with Aragon that the propoganda war has been fought by the pro-government Israelis as systematically and as effectively as possible when you are slaughtering civilians and civilian facilities on a mass scale. They have achieved an appearance of equivalence in much of the media for the Hamas Rockets with the full scale air attack on Gaza.

The Israeli attack was clearly prepared before the end of the cease fire. It is unclear which came first at the end of the cease fire, Israeili strikes against individual Hamas leaders or the rockets. Hamas is a community-based social movement and militia and doesn't even have a unified military leadership. Their leadership has been assassinated time and again by the Israelis. They are in no position to respond to the propoganda war any more than they are to the air bombardment.

P.ie must be a bit of a shock to the Israeli students' systems system, all the same.

Aragon wrote:

If Palestine has won the media war, then I must have completely missed it. Media coverage of this issue is so outrageously pro Israel it's almost an accessory to the murder. The truth is more that, imo, most people are not fooled by it and retain a sense of fairness and normal human outrage at what is going on. Palestine is another one of those issues which clearly shows how the media is really little more than the establishment's mouthpiece and completely out of touch with its own readership/viewers. Wealthy people in Ireland are benefitting far more from the industrial military complex at the heart of the Palestinian situation than is ever publicly discussed and where wealthy people are concerned, the media is always on their side.

I wonder what the families of Palestinian children murdered in this latest cowardly act of Israeli agression would feel on hearing that there are people elsewhere whimisically entertaining themselves by adopting a pro Israeli position merely for the sake of playing devil's advocate. Once again I am mystified and disgusted by this eulogising of evil people fronting up an indefensible position - as if there was something clever or admirable involved. Why do so many men in particular seem to think it is an accomplishment to be good at lying? People are being maimed and killed in an illegal war started by the Israelis several decades ago. There is no justification for this sort of twisted praise.

In fairness there’s not much to be said for lobbing rockets into Israeli civilian areas either. I'd be no friend of the Israeli action, but a bit of balance on this subject, from the likes of yourself, wouldn’t go astray.

tonys wrote:

Aragon wrote:

If Palestine has won the media war, then I must have completely missed it. Media coverage of this issue is so outrageously pro Israel it's almost an accessory to the murder. The truth is more that, imo, most people are not fooled by it and retain a sense of fairness and normal human outrage at what is going on. Palestine is another one of those issues which clearly shows how the media is really little more than the establishment's mouthpiece and completely out of touch with its own readership/viewers. Wealthy people in Ireland are benefitting far more from the industrial military complex at the heart of the Palestinian situation than is ever publicly discussed and where wealthy people are concerned, the media is always on their side.

I wonder what the families of Palestinian children murdered in this latest cowardly act of Israeli agression would feel on hearing that there are people elsewhere whimisically entertaining themselves by adopting a pro Israeli position merely for the sake of playing devil's advocate. Once again I am mystified and disgusted by this eulogising of evil people fronting up an indefensible position - as if there was something clever or admirable involved. Why do so many men in particular seem to think it is an accomplishment to be good at lying? People are being maimed and killed in an illegal war started by the Israelis several decades ago. There is no justification for this sort of twisted praise.

In fairness there’s not much to be said for lobbing rockets into Israeli civilian areas either. I'd be no friend of the Israeli action, but a bit of balance on this subject, from the likes of yourself, wouldn’t go astray.

I agree with what you say Tonys in one sense. There is some very intelligent analysis of Hamas' military and political tactics at this blog - and of the situation in Gaza generally - you will need to scroll down at the link to get to it - I think you will find it interesting at any rate even if you dont necessarily agree with the conclusions drawn. I thoroughly recommend it - the writer is Richard Seymour - one of the best internet commentators around:

http://leninology.blogspot.com/

As to balance, in this context, it's a term that is abused beyond recognition - a mere device deployed by mainstream discourse to finesse the fact that Israel is simply in the wrong, and always has been. A thug is a thug is a thug. It's quite straightforward. The Palestinians have not always responded well or wisely, but they did not start this and certainly did not deserve it. They're a victim people desperately trying to defend and protect themselves from an ugly aggressor. Another commentator has compared them to rape victims whose attempts to fight off their rapists are used in evidence against them - there is no way they can win when the reality is twisted like this. If they do not fight to protect themselves they will suffer the same fate - the only difference is that they might, if they resist, delay the outcome or - though almost wholly unlikely - even defeat their attackers.

Hamas comment on the lack of balance about Gaza/Palestine:

Quote :

Amid mushrooming protests around the globe, world diplomats have been scrambling to find a way to halt one of Israel’s deadliest-ever offensives on Gaza that has so far killed at least 390 Palestinians.

Hamas, for its part, blasted international truce proposals as unbalanced, with spokesman Fawzi Barhum saying they “put the executioner and the victim on equal footing”.

“All Arab and international intervention must focus on stopping the aggression, lifting the blockade and opening all border crossings,” he said.

Full Irish Examiner article: Link

Aragon wrote:

tonys wrote:

Aragon wrote:

If Palestine has won the media war, then I must have completely missed it. Media coverage of this issue is so outrageously pro Israel it's almost an accessory to the murder. The truth is more that, imo, most people are not fooled by it and retain a sense of fairness and normal human outrage at what is going on. Palestine is another one of those issues which clearly shows how the media is really little more than the establishment's mouthpiece and completely out of touch with its own readership/viewers. Wealthy people in Ireland are benefitting far more from the industrial military complex at the heart of the Palestinian situation than is ever publicly discussed and where wealthy people are concerned, the media is always on their side.

I wonder what the families of Palestinian children murdered in this latest cowardly act of Israeli agression would feel on hearing that there are people elsewhere whimisically entertaining themselves by adopting a pro Israeli position merely for the sake of playing devil's advocate. Once again I am mystified and disgusted by this eulogising of evil people fronting up an indefensible position - as if there was something clever or admirable involved. Why do so many men in particular seem to think it is an accomplishment to be good at lying? People are being maimed and killed in an illegal war started by the Israelis several decades ago. There is no justification for this sort of twisted praise.

In fairness there’s not much to be said for lobbing rockets into Israeli civilian areas either. I'd be no friend of the Israeli action, but a bit of balance on this subject, from the likes of yourself, wouldn’t go astray.

I agree with what you say Tonys in one sense. There is some very intelligent analysis of Hamas' military and political tactics at this blog - and of the situation in Gaza generally - you will need to scroll down at the link to get to it - I think you will find it interesting at any rate even if you dont necessarily agree with the conclusions drawn. I thoroughly recommend it - the writer is Richard Seymour - one of the best internet commentators around:

http://leninology.blogspot.com/

As to balance, in this context, it's a term that is abused beyond recognition - a mere device deployed by mainstream discourse to finesse the fact that Israel is simply in the wrong, and always has been. A thug is a thug is a thug. It's quite straightforward. The Palestinians have not always responded well or wisely, but they did not start this and certainly did not deserve it. They're a victim people desperately trying to defend and protect themselves from an ugly aggressor. Another commentator has compared them to rape victims whose attempts to fight off their rapists are used in evidence against them - there is no way they can win when the reality is twisted like this. If they do not fight to protect themselves they will suffer the same fate - the only difference is that they might, if they resist, delay the outcome or - though almost wholly unlikely - even defeat their attackers.

Hamas comment on the lack of balance about Gaza/Palestine:

Quote :

Amid mushrooming protests around the globe, world diplomats have been scrambling to find a way to halt one of Israel’s deadliest-ever offensives on Gaza that has so far killed at least 390 Palestinians.

Hamas, for its part, blasted international truce proposals as unbalanced, with spokesman Fawzi Barhum saying they “put the executioner and the victim on equal footing”.

“All Arab and international intervention must focus on stopping the aggression, lifting the blockade and opening all border crossings,” he said.

Full Irish Examiner article: Link

Thanks for that link Aragon.

I notice that journalists have been told to stay indoors or they will be targeted by the Israelis. If any of them uses a mobile phone that would be no bother to Israeli air force.

tonys wrote:

Aragon wrote:

A thug is a thug is a thug. It's quite straightforward. The Palestinians have not always responded well or wisely, but they did not start this and certainly did not deserve it. They're a victim people desperately trying to defend and protect themselves from an ugly aggressor.

That’s like something an IRA supporter would say about the Warrington bombings and it just doesn’t cover it, you are making excuses for an organisation lobbing rockets at a civil population, it shouldn’t happen in any circumstances, there is no justification for that. Describing them as thugs would be the very least you could say about an organisation who would perpetrate such an action.

The Israelis have reacted in exactly the way Hamas would have known they would, but they are apparently prepared to sacrifice their own civilian population for the sake of the bigger picture, as they see it. You really do need to ask yourself some questions about your support for these creatures.

My own preferred solution would involve getting the hardliners of both sides into a secure area, arming them and letting them kill each other off, lets see how keen they are in spilling their own blood. After that, the sane of both sides can come together to work out an acceptable solution, as they will have to in the end, if there is to be an end.

Im not a supporter of Hamas but I am not blinded to the atrociously unbalanced treatment they receive in the media - there is no equivalence between them and Israel. The inhabitants of the Gaza strip cannot be compared to an IRA cell operating in Warrinton. They did not start this conflict, the Israelis did - an inconveneint truth which you steadfastly ignore and about which most commentators appear to be obstinate to the point of autism. Unless you think it would be preferable for people to simply roll over and die in the interests of clearing the territory for the establishment of the Zionist state? Here are some statistics to put the situation into perspect from Dr Gideon Polya:

Quote :

For the LATEST on what is going on in the Apartheid israeli Gaza Concentration Camp see the Gaza Reports by Sameh A. Habeeb, B.A., Photojournalist & Peace Activist Humanitarian, Child Relief Worker, Gaza Strip, Palestine; Web: www.gazatoday.blogspot.com and
Daily Photos: http://picasaweb.google.com/sameh.habeeb .

As of December 31 it appears that FOUR HUNDRED (400) Occupied Palestinians have been murdered by Israeli bombing and up to 2,000 wounded. in FIVE (5) DAYS of Apartheid Israeli blitzkrieg in neo-Nazi Apartheid Israel’s obscene simulation of the Warsaw Ghetto in Nazi-occupied Poland.

In contrast, according to official Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs data and the latest media reports, a total of TWENTY EIGHT (28) Israelis have been killed by Gaza rockets and mortars in the period September 2000 to December 2008 inclusive (see latest media reports and “list of Qassam rocket attacks”: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Qassam_rocket_attacks “), this corresponding to an “annual death rate” over 8.25 YEARS and with an average Israeli population of 6.6 million of 28 deaths /(8.25 x 6.6 million) = 0.5 deaths per million per year.

This “annual death rate” of 0.5 per million (Israelis from Gaza rockets and mortars since September 2000) is vastly lower than that of the follwing 21 st century “annuaql death rates” of 15 per million (Israelis murdered by Israelis), 164 per million (Palestinians killed violently by Israelis), 902 per million (Palestinian non-violent deaths through Israeli-imposed deprivation), 56 per million (Americans), 200 per million (African-Americans), 300 per million (Americans by Guns) and 473 per million (people of Detroit, Michigan, USA) (see “America's Most Murderous Cities”: http://www.forbes.com/2007/11/08/murder-city-danger-forbeslife-cx_de_1108murder.html ).

In response, in the last week of December 2008 alone the Israelis have killed (as of 31 December 2008) a total of 400 Palestinians killed and 2,000 wounded, OSTENSIBLY because of Gaza rocket and mortar attacks on the State of Israel (see report from Gaza by Sameh Habeeb: http://www.gazatoday.blogspot.com/ ).

Do these obscene racist Zionist (RZ) reprisals (for 0.5 per million Israelis killed by Gaza missile each year) imply that the Apartheid Israeli air force should bomb Tel Aviv (15 per million Israelis murdered by Israelis each year) or the US air force should bomb Detroit, Michigan (473 per million citizens murdered each year)?

This carnage of this latest December 2008 Gaza Massacre by Apartheid Israel corresponds to a Them/US reprisal “death ratio” of 400/28 = 14, this being 40% higher than that of 10 ordered by Adolph Hitler in March 1944 in response to deaths of 33 German soldiers and subsequently effected in the Ardeatine Caves Massacre (335 Italian men and boys executed by the Nazis) (see “Ardeatine Massacre”: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardeatine_massacre ).

It gets WORSE. It can be estimated from UNICEF data that in addition to the violent deaths outlined above, IN THE LAST WEEK about 2,400/52 = 46 under-5 year old Occupied Palestinian infants died avoidably due to deprivation and, since under-5 infant deaths in impoverished Third World countries and territories are 0.7 of total avoidable deaths, a total of about 66 Occupied Palestinians died non-violently in the last week from deprivation and deprivation-exacerbated medical problems (see “UNICEF”: http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/index.html and “Layperson’s Guide to counting Iraq deaths”: http://mwcnews.net/content/view/5872/26/ ).

The deliberate targeting of civilians by aerial bombing of one of the most densely populated urban areas in the world is prohibited by the Geneva Convention and International humanitarian Conventions. Passive killing through the non-supply of life-sustaining food and medical requisites is also prohibited by the Geneva Convention, notably by Articles 55 and 56 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (see: http://www.un-documents.net/gc-4.htm ) that demand that the Occupier preserves the health and lives of its Conquered Subjects “to the fullest extent of the means available to it “.

Does blockading, starving and now bombing one of the most densely populated territories in the world constitute Occupier preservation of the health and lives of the Conquered Subjects “to the fullest extent of the means available to it “?

Notwithstanding my total rejection as an agnostic, scientist Humanist of all religion and particularly religious fundamentalism, I am morally obliged to express my extreme OBJECTION to position of the Australia Liberal- National Party Coalition Opposition and Labor Federal Government (aka the Lib-Labs) (a) for not recognizing the overwhelmingly democratically elected Hamas Government of the Occupied Territory and indeed dismissing it as a “terrorist organization” (for elections under Israeli Occupier guns in which the Islamist Hamas won, taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas ) ; (b) for making it a criminal offense potentially punishable by up to life imprisonment for anyone to donate money to Hamas-controlled but sorely and war criminally Israeli blockaded hospitals in Gaza (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Anti-Terrorism_Act_2005 ); and (c) in supporting violent, war criminal Apartheid Israeli actions against its 4 million defenceless Occupied Palestinian, and specifically so in the last week in the extremely densely populated Gaza Strip (e.g. see: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/29/2456004.htm ).

Politically correct racist (PC racist) White Australian Mainstream media and Lib-Lab politician support for Apartheid Israeli violence also surfaced in mid-2006 when Apartheid Israel was bombing the Lebanese, including (at the time) 25,000 AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS (for this Australian’s statistical and artistic response to that atrocity see my HUGE painting “Qana” in “Picasso, Guernica, Qana & the Da Vinci Code”: http://mwcnews.net/content/view/9547/26/ ) .

Peace is the only way. Sanctions and Boycotts against Apartheid Israel and its genocidal US, UK and White Australia co-participants in the Muslim Holocaust are the only intra-national and international actions that can stop the Apartheid Israeli Gaza Massacre (400 dead, 2000 wounded in 5 DAYS) and indeed the Palestinian Genocide, Iraqi Genocide and Afghan Genocide (post-invasion excess deaths 0.3 million, 2 million, 4-6 million, respectively; post-invasion under-5 infant deaths 0.2 million, 0.6 million and 2.1 million; refugees 7 million, 6 million and 4 million) (see “9-11 excuse for US global genocide. The real 9-11 atrocity: millions dead (9-11 million) in Bush Wars (1990-2008)”: http://mwcnews.net/content/view/25184/42/ ).

cactus flower wrote:

I'm almost offended that we have not been trolled here, although the site has certainly been viewed from Israel over the last week on several occasions.

905, you must be doing such a good job as devils advocate that they don't feel the need.

I agree with Aragon that the propoganda war has been fought by the pro-government Israelis as systematically and as effectively as possible when you are slaughtering civilians and civilian facilities on a mass scale. They have achieved an appearance of equivalence in much of the media for the Hamas Rockets with the full scale air attack on Gaza.

The Israeli attack was clearly prepared before the end of the cease fire. It is unclear which came first at the end of the cease fire, Israeili strikes against individual Hamas leaders or the rockets. Hamas is a community-based social movement and militia and doesn't even have a unified military leadership. Their leadership has been assassinated time and again by the Israelis. They are in no position to respond to the propoganda war any more than they are to the air bombardment.

P.ie must be a bit of a shock to the Israeli students' systems system, all the same.

Considering what Aragon just said about playing the devil's advocate, I'm not sure I like what you're saying. Did I say I was going to play the devil's advocate?

My two sources of information are RTÉ news and the Irish Times. I haven't the time or inclination to do a systematic study of exactly how much coverage they give these issues or how much balance they give. In my subjective opinion, Palestinians usually come out looking like victims. I think it last night I was watching the news. Israel rejected a truce, a couple of bombs were lobbed at Israel (one hitting a Kindergarten), many Palestinians were killed in various attacks, an Englisman with the UN came on to tell us about the terrible humanitarian conditions in Gaza. I can't see how Israel came out on top there.

The Irish Times has a fellow called Michael Jansen in the region, who pretty much sticks to the America/Israel bad, Hamas good formula. They have Vincent Browne, coming up with the silliest pro-Palestinian stuff. hey used to have Lara Marlowe in the region who had a similar approach to Jansen.

So in my small world there is a focus on the sufferings of the Palestinians, which is entirely fair and to be expected. But I am aware that pro-Israeli voices often cry out of media discrimination, of the sufferings of the Israelis being ignored. We had the Israeli ambassador write an article to the Irish Times bemoaning the neglected sufferings of the Israelis. In short they do exactly what Aragon does, they assume that they are the underdogs fighting against the odds to have their voices heard.

905 wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

I'm almost offended that we have not been trolled here, although the site has certainly been viewed from Israel over the last week on several occasions.

905, you must be doing such a good job as devils advocate that they don't feel the need.

I agree with Aragon that the propoganda war has been fought by the pro-government Israelis as systematically and as effectively as possible when you are slaughtering civilians and civilian facilities on a mass scale. They have achieved an appearance of equivalence in much of the media for the Hamas Rockets with the full scale air attack on Gaza.

The Israeli attack was clearly prepared before the end of the cease fire. It is unclear which came first at the end of the cease fire, Israeili strikes against individual Hamas leaders or the rockets. Hamas is a community-based social movement and militia and doesn't even have a unified military leadership. Their leadership has been assassinated time and again by the Israelis. They are in no position to respond to the propoganda war any more than they are to the air bombardment.

P.ie must be a bit of a shock to the Israeli students' systems system, all the same.

Considering what Aragon just said about playing the devil's advocate, I'm not sure I like what you're saying. Did I say I was going to play the devil's advocate?

My two sources of information are RTÉ news and the Irish Times. I haven't the time or inclination to do a systematic study of exactly how much coverage they give these issues or how much balance they give. In my subjective opinion, Palestinians usually come out looking like victims. I think it last night I was watching the news. Israel rejected a truce, a couple of bombs were lobbed at Israel (one hitting a Kindergarten), many Palestinians were killed in various attacks, an Englisman with the UN came on to tell us about the terrible humanitarian conditions in Gaza. I can't see how Israel came out on top there.

The Irish Times has a fellow called Michael Jansen in the region, who pretty much sticks to the America/Israel bad, Hamas good formula. They have Vincent Browne, coming up with the silliest pro-Palestinian stuff. hey used to have Lara Marlowe in the region who had a similar approach to Jansen.

So in my small world there is a focus on the sufferings of the Palestinians, which is entirely fair and to be expected. But I am aware that pro-Israeli voices often cry out of media discrimination, of the sufferings of the Israelis being ignored. We had the Israeli ambassador write an article to the Irish Times bemoaning the neglected sufferings of the Israelis. In short they do exactly what Aragon does, they assume that they are the underdogs fighting against the odds to have their voices heard.

What is the 'silliest pro-Palestinian' stuff to which you refer? You speak as if your position were self-evident or located firmly in some notion of a rational centre ground when in fact it isnt at all. I can accpet that many people see my view as being ultra left-wing or extreme in some sense but if opposing murder and oppression makes me an extremist then I'm happy to be called one.

Aragon wrote:

I can accpet that many people see my view as being ultra left-wing or extreme in some sense but if opposing murder and oppression makes me an extremist then I'm happy to be called one.

It’s opposing only Israeli murders and not Palestinian murders that makes you an extremist.

Aragon wrote:

Im not a supporter of Hamas but I am not blinded to the atrociously unbalanced treatment they receive in the media - there is no equivalence between them and Israel. The inhabitants of the Gaza strip cannot be compared to an IRA cell operating in Warrinton. They did not start this conflict, the Israelis did - an inconveneint truth which you steadfastly ignore and about which most commentators appear to be obstinate to the point of autism.

It doesn’t matter now who “started” this conflict, Israel nor the Israelis are going anywhere, they are there to stay, until Hamas accept that and negotiate a settlement from there, the conflict will go on & on.

There is a huge amount of goodwill for the Palestinian cause in the media of the western world, particularly in Europe, it remains only for the representatives of the Palestinian people to show enough sense to make best use of this pressure group, but firing rockets at civilian populations isn’t a good start.

Unlike yourself, I don’t live in a black & white world, populated only by the “good” & “bad”, I live in the real world, where, in this instance, people have to learn to live together or continue to die together, there is no third choice.

tonys wrote:

Aragon wrote:

Im not a supporter of Hamas but I am not blinded to the atrociously unbalanced treatment they receive in the media - there is no equivalence between them and Israel. The inhabitants of the Gaza strip cannot be compared to an IRA cell operating in Warrinton. They did not start this conflict, the Israelis did - an inconveneint truth which you steadfastly ignore and about which most commentators appear to be obstinate to the point of autism.

It doesn’t matter now who “started” this conflict, Israel nor the Israelis are going anywhere, they are there to stay, until Hamas accept that and negotiate a settlement from there, the conflict will go on & on.

There is a huge amount of goodwill for the Palestinian cause in the media of the western world, particularly in Europe, it remains only for the representatives of the Palestinian people to show enough sense to make best use of this pressure group, but firing rockets at civilian populations isn’t a good start.

Unlike yourself, I don’t live in a black & white world, populated only by the “good” & “bad”, I live in the real world, where, in this instance, people have to learn to live together or continue to die together, there is no third choice.

I don't live in a black and white world either Tonys but neither do I support the fallacy that in each and every conflict there is an automatic equivalence between the parties to it, or the idea that for each and every murderous thing Israel does, some sort of rationale must be found, to spare Israel's blushes, that somehow the Palestinians invited it all on themselves when they emphatically did not. Like I said above, I don't think the Palestinian response has always been good but that does not alter the fact that they are not responsible for the situation. They have been violently, economically and morally provoked beyond what any human being is capable of enduring with calm objectivity. It's arrogant to require of them what no human being is capable of and to judge their response to Israeli aggression as if it were not what it is and to deem it imperfect from the safety of your sofa. If you and your family had been turfed out of homes you had owned for centuries, you'd be lot less judgmental, I'd wager. How much less sanguine would you be about it if your daughter (and her baby) had died giving birth at a checkpoint in searing heat - watched over by Israeli soldiers? You make no mention of the massive number of deaths caused by Israeli aggression - many more than those caused by the Palestinian resistance, itself an entirely understandable reaction to the vicious policies and tactics of Israel. You ignore the figures and statistics - the facts - presented above in order, it appears, to serve this myth that the Palestinians are as guilty as the Israelis. That's outrageous - the more so when you have the murderous evidence in front of your eyes. It's as outrageous as suggesting that any resistance offered by the Jews to the Nazi threat made them responsible for their own fate.

How many times has the (untrue) statement that Jewish people didn't fight back against the Nazis been used as a cynical form of criticism of them?

Aragon wrote:

What is the 'silliest pro-Palestinian' stuff to which you refer? You speak as if your position were self-evident or located firmly in some notion of a rational centre ground when in fact it isnt at all. I can accpet that many people see my view as being ultra left-wing or extreme in some sense but if opposing murder and oppression makes me an extremist then I'm happy to be called one.

I never mentioned you. I said that Vincent Browne, for whom I have very little time, writes terrible crap on the subject. This is my opinion and I'm aware that he has many admirers. I hoped it was clear that I was talking subjectively, if it wasn't then I apologise.

Maybe we should tidy this debate up. I think one thread for media coverage/propaganda is enough and one for discussion of the events on the ground.

All threads on Israel should begin with the cyber war stuff it probably keeps the teen spooks at bay

Unless anyone objects, I'll move some of the posts above to the other Gaza thread.

On the subject of the media, and the hierarchy of deaths, treated in different ways by the media, this is a very interesting and unusual talk given by Roy Greenslade, a British journalist, on the reporting of matters to do with Northern Ireland. I hope you have time to read it tonys.

http://www.victimsandsurvivorstrust.com/DWG/rg_mem_lecture.htm

A short extract from it:

Quote :

Now I concede that it's facile to view this hierarchy of death as a media conspiracy. It has much more to do with the way in which the conflict has long been seen -- by both the British media and the British political establishment -- firstly, as a war between the British government and republicans and, secondly, and perhaps more pertinently still, as a conflict between two warring tribes in which poor, benighted Britain is the reluctant piggy in the middle.

The first scenario has meant that all nationalists, and by extension all Catholics, have therefore been viewed by the media as "the enemy" or the potential enemy. At worst, as supporters of the IRA. At best, as "disloyal" subjects of Her Majesty, eager to break the link with Britain. Even constitutional nationalists who have always rejected violence, have suffered, if not from media hostility, from media apathy.

Interesting though this may be, it's the second scenario which has become, recently, much more important. It is the ideological stranglehold which has far-reaching implications, contaminating media coverage and, I would argue, stifling political development. The coverage of events in Northern Ireland, especially acts of murder, are adduced as proof that Britain's in a hopeless position. It's the innocent between two guilty parties, the sensible mother trying to deal with two squabbling brats, the honest broker trying to deal with intransigent clients.

This view has become so accepted that when I listen to radio phone-ins in Britain about Ireland, the most common comment is: "They're both as bad as each other." British politicians say it all the time. Newspaper leading articles state it. On TV and radio, presenters happily spout it.

905 wrote:

Aragon wrote:

What is the 'silliest pro-Palestinian' stuff to which you refer? You speak as if your position were self-evident or located firmly in some notion of a rational centre ground when in fact it isnt at all. I can accpet that many people see my view as being ultra left-wing or extreme in some sense but if opposing murder and oppression makes me an extremist then I'm happy to be called one.

I never mentioned you. I said that Vincent Browne, for whom I have very little time, writes terrible crap on the subject. This is my opinion and I'm aware that he has many admirers. I hoped it was clear that I was talking subjectively, if it wasn't then I apologise.

I dont take you at all personally nine-oh-fiver but I'm interested to know why you think VB writes 'terrible crap' on the subject? Any examples?