I posted a video some time ago (in what thread I've no clue), that showed Joe Biden, during the presidential campaign, telling a town hall full of people that Bush and Co. might well be prosecuted for torture. I initially put it down to an empty campaign promise and filed it in me head as something to moan about when it fell through. But he's still talking about it and it looks like my opportunity to have a good moan is fading. The opportunity is far from gone mind you, but I am surprised.

Prosecuting Bush and Co. for torture would open up a pandora's box. This prosecution would obviously take place in the US, leaders around the world will be left with egg on their faces and questions about why they supported Bush and never the once accused him of torture and thus war crimes. And that'd only be the beginning...

Biden not 'ruling out' Bush prosecution

Only one chance of this happening and it is not slim

youngdan wrote:

Only one chance of this happening and it is not slim

That's very true. But nonetheless, even talking about it, now that the election is over, has the potential to unleash a maelstrom on a global scale. The good old butterfly effect.

Well, we can keep our fingers crossed.

I just read it out of the corner of my eye but isn't Cheney getting menaced by some groups in Texas now about War Crimes ?

Auditor #9 wrote:

I just read it out of the corner of my eye but isn't Cheney getting menaced by some groups in Texas now about War Crimes ?

Yup, that's been happening for a while now. Someone even tried to perform a citizen's arrest on him a short while back. He'll never again be able to go out in public without someone calling him a traitor or a criminal.

That being said, he gave an interview over the weekend where he said that he was proud of his part in things and quite happy with the steps taken in dealing with captives, ie waterboarding etc.

The Real News Network have an interesting take on Cheney's weekend confession:

youngdan wrote:

Only one chance of this happening and it is not slim

Due to the lateness of the hour when I first saw this I interpreted it as meaning 'none'. Is that it ?

From the New York Times this week -

Quote :

Most Americans have long known that the horrors of Abu Ghraib were not the work of a few low-ranking sociopaths. All but President Bush’s most unquestioning supporters recognized the chain of unprincipled decisions that led to the abuse, torture and death in prisons run by the American military and intelligence services.

Now, a bipartisan report by the Senate Armed Services Committee has made what amounts to a strong case for bringing criminal charges against former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld; his legal counsel, William J. Haynes; and potentially other top officials, including the former White House counsel Alberto Gonzales and David Addington, Vice President Dick Cheney’s former chief of staff.

The report shows how actions by these men “led directly” to what happened at Abu Ghraib, in Afghanistan, in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, and in secret C.I.A. prisons.

New York Times, Wed 17th Dec, 2008

Aren't most of the world leaders who supported Bush now gone from their positions in their respective countries - Bertie, Blair, Aznar, John Howard in Australia (?) ? The NYT is saying it would be 'fraught politically' for Obama to pursue this. Has he really got the final say if there is enough bipartisan support for prosecuting these war criminals ? Let respective states who aided in this travesty of a war prosecute their local respective villains.

Auditor #9 wrote:

youngdan wrote:

Only one chance of this happening and it is not slim

Due to the lateness of the hour when I first saw this I interpreted it as meaning 'none'. Is that it ?

From the New York Times this week -

Quote :

Most Americans have long known that the horrors of Abu Ghraib were not the work of a few low-ranking sociopaths. All but President Bush’s most unquestioning supporters recognized the chain of unprincipled decisions that led to the abuse, torture and death in prisons run by the American military and intelligence services.

Now, a bipartisan report by the Senate Armed Services Committee has made what amounts to a strong case for bringing criminal charges against former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld; his legal counsel, William J. Haynes; and potentially other top officials, including the former White House counsel Alberto Gonzales and David Addington, Vice President Dick Cheney’s former chief of staff.

The report shows how actions by these men “led directly” to what happened at Abu Ghraib, in Afghanistan, in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, and in secret C.I.A. prisons.

New York Times, Wed 17th Dec, 2008

Aren't most of the world leaders who supported Bush now gone from their positions in their respective countries - Bertie, Blair, Aznar, John Howard in Australia (?) ? The NYT is saying it would be 'fraught politically' for Obama to pursue this. Has he really got the final say if there is enough bipartisan support for prosecuting these war criminals ? Let respective states who aided in this travesty of a war prosecute their local respective villains.

This is just what I was saying in the other thread. The wrong people are in the jails.

Despite what is rhetoric, for the most part, from the politicians, like Obama and Biden, they've absolutely no power to launch a prosecution. Separation of powers. On the other hand, they do have the power to demand or order an investigation. Though in fairness, such an act would only be dotting the i's and crossing the t's as all the evidence of guilt is already in the public domain.

The rhetoric does have the power to blow up in the faces of those who use it though. The big knobs moaning about the criminality of Bush and Co. will obviously influence the little knobs, particularly those who've remained silent, awaiting guidance from those they see as their superiors. And indeed, it may whip more conservative Americans into a rebellious state of frenzy. Very dangerous stuff. The pen and the word are far mightier than the sword. Indeed, the word, written or spoken, can exist independently of the sword, whereas the sword is dependent upon the word.

All this public talk about prosecution etc. will possibly have the effect of poisoning any prosecution that might eventually arise. That is to say that it might make it impossible to arrange a fair trial. And that's probably the intent of the bluster to begin with. But again, that may well have an knock on effect too. As I said earlier, the butterfly effect.

None it is Audi.

Was Clinton prosecuted by Bush, no they went golfing. Will Clinton now prosecute Bush? Don't hold your breath, just breath as normal and as long as Ibis is not arround you can exhale as much carbon
dioxide as you like and methane in the other direction if you see him coming.

On Monday last, Manfred Nowak, Special Rapporteur on Torture for the UN, appeared on CNN calling for the US to investigate allegations of torture, saying that there is plenty of evidence available to warrant it, he added that under international law, the US has an obligation to do so. He singled Donald Rumsfeld out for special mention.

There is no chance of this happening Hermes. To think otherwise requires you to believe that Obama is the boss and the repubs are "the other side"

youngdan wrote:

There is no chance of this happening Hermes. To think otherwise requires you to believe that Obama is the boss and the repubs are "the other side"

Yer speaking to the converted Youngdan. But the more this is talked about, the more likely it becomes that other countries will aim to arrest the offending parties if they ever step off American soil.

Twas mentioned in the broadcast that the US isn't signed up to the ICC. We must remember that Nuremberg didn't require that the nazi's be supportive of their trials either. They are signed up to the Geneva Conventions though, and can be prosecuted in any participating country for violations.

There seems to be a massive undercurrent brewing at the moment and the word is that there will be some truly horrifying revelations, concerning US deeds, coming out in the next month or so. It might be that Barrack might have no choice but to order an investigation, or else find himself and his country isolated in a fashion that would have been inconceivable twelve months ago.

The only pressure that would count is financial and no one with money cares a toss. Why should they when their interests often coincide with those actions we all find repugnant?

Only the losers in a war are made to account. It is all part of the modern equivalent of humiliation, of dragging your defeated captor behind your chariot through the streets of Rome. It has little to do with any concern related to Human Rights and has all to do with asserting your moral and military superiority.

Squire wrote:

The only pressure that would count is financial and no one with money cares a toss. Why should they when their interests often coincide with those actions we all find repugnant?

Only the losers in a war are made to account. It is all part of the modern equivalent of humiliation, of dragging your defeated captor behind your chariot through the streets of Rome. It has little to do with any concern related to Human Rights and has all to do with asserting your moral and military superiority.

I think that's about to change.

When you convert whole populations into herds of consumers you allow for your own destruction should the individual ever recognise his potential. I think the recent Gaza nightmare and the following boycotts have educated the public to its true potential. If a lot of individuals decide to boycott a product, a company or a country, a bending of knees will follow.

Hermes

You are a hopeless optimist. I wish there were many more like you!

I hope you are right Hermes. There are plenty of signs to be optimistic. The election of Obama is a blessing. When half his voters admit to themselves that he is total phoney it will be a good start.

Even here there is hope. Conyers, or whatever the spelling is, is demanding that Rove testifies and Fitzpatrick is calling some Obama people to testify about Blago. It is open to question what Fitzpatrick is up to.

I am beginning to think that Obama thinks he is the boss. If this is the case just watch the press turn against him. He will be tossed from office fairly fast.

Squire wrote:

Hermes

You are a hopeless optimist. I wish there were many more like you!

I'm more of a believer in entropy.

Cheney is a criminal, pure and simple. He must always be remembered as such.

Slim Buddha wrote:

Cheney is a criminal, pure and simple. He must always be remembered as such.

yes, and those who supported him. Including Bliar and Co. Ltd. Although it would be may be hard to prove how much they knew about the torture.

Cheney and Bush both admitted it, didn't they, in the last month? People wondered what they were playing at.