Hermes wrote:

At what point was the word "sovereign," redefined? And who is responsible for it?

Self sufficiency is a necessary condition for sovereignty to be possible. We'll always be in a position where we'll need to trade. Becoming a race of beggars and slaves is to move in the opposite direction to sovereignty. Which of the two methodologies discussed on this thread moves towards self sufficiency and which moves away? Indeed, let us discuss the true nature of patriotism next and let us start by saying that patriotism has nothing whatsoever to do with shopping.

Well I don’t know about that now.
Let me start by defining my sovereignty in such a way as to include my right to deny your right to define my conversation for me or not to put too fine a point on it, I’ll shop patriotically if that’s the fuck what I want to do.

Can we agree on that at least?

tonys wrote:

Hermes wrote:

At what point was the word "sovereign," redefined? And who is responsible for it?

Self sufficiency is a necessary condition for sovereignty to be possible. We'll always be in a position where we'll need to trade. Becoming a race of beggars and slaves is to move in the opposite direction to sovereignty. Which of the two methodologies discussed on this thread moves towards self sufficiency and which moves away? Indeed, let us discuss the true nature of patriotism next and let us start by saying that patriotism has nothing whatsoever to do with shopping.

Well I don’t know about that now.
Let me start by defining my sovereignty in such a way as to include my right to deny your right to define my conversation for me or not to put too fine a point on it, I’ll shop patriotically if that’s the fuck what I want to do.

Can we agree on that at least?

Why would you seek agreement if you believe patriotism is something that's practiced without a need for agreement?

I think you're talking more about the right to choose your own destiny, than patriotism. Surely to Christ, everything I've said thus far embraces that?

As for respecting the belief that shopping will make this country great and that it's something to be proud of, you'll pardon my puking, I hope.

Hermes wrote:

These questions regarding imports and exports are important. No doubt about that. But I think, that if you're to take what I'm saying seriously, you must explore all the avenues that it opens, as opposed to the facade of my point and then add in the 'same as usual' picture as an afterthought to it. It doesn't and won't work that way, as is obvious.

The whole picture must be changed, as too must the way we compose it, take it and develop it.

With regard to oil and gas. First of all we must calculate how much we need for ourselves and remove the amount we need to act as slaves for multinationals. Let them buy their own and bring it in, if they're still allowed in. Next we must nationalise all our indigenous resources and if necessary bring in labour and expertise from abroad to exploit them, for our needs.

Steel etc. Most of the metals we utilise are used up in the manufacturing industry, to be exported. End that, introduce recycling and our needs can be met with a minimum of fuss with regard to imports and expenditure.

I'm giving a very rudimentary answer to complex questions and it should suffice to show a methodology as opposed to providing a comprehensive answer. Our whole methodology and ethos with regard to how we function as a nation must change to facilitate the picture I'm painting. It is a fundamental restructuring of our whole society, not a patch on a porus tyre. It's by no means an easy thing and indeed, it'd take smarter folks, by a long shot, than myself, to accomplish it. It may be pie in the sky. But I reach for it nonethteless. I see it as a superior goal than looking forward to going, cap in hand, to beg for a handout from those who produce nothing but despair and misery.

I mean, we must ask ourselves, surely at some point, if we are capable of independent existence. Not a xenophobic isolationist existence mind you, but a mature and decisive one all the same. If we're not, we're doomed to failure and moreso, imo, we deserve it.

I've no issue with tightening my belt. Indeed I'll tighten it till I drop and can move no more. But I'll be damned if I'll do it just to facilitate the same crap again, to await another generation. Our ancestors, generations of them, died and spilled their guts so that we would and could rule ourselves. Imo, we spat on them from the moment we formed our nation and immediately saddled ourselves with new rulers and landlords. They died for us to have an opportunity and we have yet to honour them. Indeed, it is now seen as being a lunatic or undemocratic to have such dreams and goals.

At what point was the word "sovereign," redefined? And who is responsible for it?

Self sufficiency is a necessary condition for sovereignty to be possible. We'll always be in a position where we'll need to trade. Becoming a race of beggars and slaves is to move in the opposite direction to sovereignty. Which of the two methodologies discussed on this thread moves towards self sufficiency and which moves away? Indeed, let us discuss the true nature of patriotism next and let us start by saying that patriotism has nothing whatsoever to do with shopping.

Best post that I have read
on this site in a long time

tonys wrote:

Hermes wrote:

tonys wrote:

Hermes wrote:

At what point was the word "sovereign," redefined? And who is responsible for it?

Self sufficiency is a necessary condition for sovereignty to be possible. We'll always be in a position where we'll need to trade. Becoming a race of beggars and slaves is to move in the opposite direction to sovereignty. Which of the two methodologies discussed on this thread moves towards self sufficiency and which moves away? Indeed, let us discuss the true nature of patriotism next and let us start by saying that patriotism has nothing whatsoever to do with shopping.

Well I don’t know about that now.
Let me start by defining my sovereignty in such a way as to include my right to deny your right to define my conversation for me or not to put too fine a point on it, I’ll shop patriotically if that’s the fuck what I want to do.

Can we agree on that at least?

Why would you seek agreement if you believe patriotism is something that's practiced without a need for agreement? I was just being nice.

I think you're talking more about the right to choose your own destiny, than patriotism. Surely to Christ, everything I've said thus far embraces that? I was talking about my right to choose my own TK Max or whatever.

As for respecting the belief that shopping will make this country great and that it's something to be proud of, you'll pardon my puking, I hope. My shot a comedy seems to have missed it's mark, I don't know what to say really, puke away.

Ah Tonys, there's no need to be nice, just to spare my feelings. My nerve endings were cauterised long ago. I can take disagreement, I might even learn from it.

I've no issue with you making choices, TK Max or whatever. I may not respect or like some of these choices, but that's different and I'll mostly hold my tongue, excepting of course if and when your choices impact on me, relatively speaking. Quid pro quo on that though?

Your shot at comedy hit its mark. Maybe you should be laughing at my puking?

Former Taoiseach's link to 'unpatriotic shopping:' LINK

Quote :

Former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern is a director of the company which developed the Quays shopping centre in Newry, recently blamed for sucking millions of euro of business away from the economy in the Republic.

Ahern, who recently suggested it was time for patriotism among shoppers and "for standing up and defending our own" refused to comment last week on his link with the Quays, which houses several leading English chains, including Sainsbury's.

He also refused to respond to questions on how much, if anything, he earns in his capacity as a member of the international advisory board of the Parker Green company.

A series of questions submitted to the Fianna Fáil press office about the former Taoiseach's attitude to what finance minister Brian Lenihan called "unpatriotic shopping" also remained unanswered.

Bertie should encourage more of the kind of shopping below.

Quote :

A handbag and a sobbing secretary have done more damage to Bertie Ahern within Fianna Fail than allegedly trousering party funds. As members look back at last week's damning evidence in the Mahon Tribunal, two contrasting images haunt them: Celia Larkin's €7,000 handbag and the shameful distress of Grainne Carruth.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mahon-tribunal/those-tears--that-handbag--the-damage-to--ahern-is-lethal-1325955.html

Hermes wrote:

Former Taoiseach's link to 'unpatriotic shopping:' LINK

Quote :

Former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern is a director of the company which developed the Quays shopping centre in Newry, recently blamed for sucking millions of euro of business away from the economy in the Republic.

Ahern, who recently suggested it was time for patriotism among shoppers and "for standing up and defending our own" refused to comment last week on his link with the Quays, which houses several leading English chains, including Sainsbury's.

He also refused to respond to questions on how much, if anything, he earns in his capacity as a member of the international advisory board of the Parker Green company.

A series of questions submitted to the Fianna Fáil press office about the former Taoiseach's attitude to what finance minister Brian Lenihan called "unpatriotic shopping" also remained unanswered.

Well found Hermes. This is suppose is declared by Bertie in the Register of Interests. I must take a look.

I'd be wary of the idea of self sufficiency in a global world. Our population has grown on the basis of globalism and millions of strands of interconnection with the rest of the world.
I'd say we should be thinking more in terms of responsibility, i.e. providing for ourselves through balanced and fair exchange with others. Environmental sustainability is enough reason to produce our own energy so far was we can.