The Party of Government presided over a slide of Ireland's economic competitivity from top to bottom in Europe in a few short years. It was apparent from 2002 that costs were being driven up and productivity trends declining - instead of dealing with this it was masked by flushing money into public sector salaries and into a development/construction boom.
By the time of the last election the construction boom had ended and there were serious danger signs economically - anyone pointing this out was according to the Taoiseach a "Loo Lah". A resignation over corruption and a loss of the Lisbon Treaty followed. The new Cabinet were plainly lost at sea and after finally recognising all was not well economically in July 2008, went on holiday for four months.

Since coming back they have screwed up an emergency budget, stumbled into the insane Banks Guarantee, made an unholy hames of the pork contamination incident and are clearly incapable of dealing with the problem created by them of public sector costs. They have paid flimsy lip service to dealing with the Lisbon issue both before and since the Referendum. They expect the most vulnerable to pay for the mistakes and greed of the most powerful.

They clearly have no idea of how to develop a strategy of identifying future opportunities and restructuring accordingly.

The incompetence, paralysis and dereliction of duty of this Government almost passes comprehension.

It seems to me that it is high time this Government called a General Election and allowed the public its say on whether it is fit to govern.

Sidewinder wrote:

1) Ireland is already experiencing monetary deflation on the Central Banks own figures

2) The total amount of credit outstanding in the system will on current trends begin declining somewhere between March and June leading inexorably to a banking collapse

3) The banks are sitting on €120 billion of loans to developers to buy land which is now worth 25% what they paid for it and to build 250,000 houses which will never be sold and to build shopping centres and hotels which will never be occupied

4) The banks have a further €280bn in loans to small businesses which are closing down, to punters who are losing their jobs and emigrating, and on residential mortgages which are sliding into negative equity in their tens of thousands

So not only will the banks be facing a systemic crisis anyway with 1) and 2) but their bad loan provisions are woefully inadequate to deal with the sh1tstorm of defaults from 3) and 4) heading their way. Their entire capital reserves will be wiped out many, many times over.

The entire Irish financial system is insolvent, the State is bankrupt, industry has collapsed, every single sector of the economy is in freefall, all our trading partners are in recession, and there is no prospect of any sector or group of sectors staging a strong recoivery to take up the slack any time soon.

Well done Bertie, you truly were an economic genius.

http://www.politics.ie/economy/38571-irish-banks-do-they-really-need-new-capital-2.html#post1314151

Hopefully they will resign before they splash out what wealth is left into the black hole outlined by Sidewinder above. It's a black hole and is sucking in our economy. The Government has decided to fix the problem by throwing more wealth into the black hole .. We're essentially selling useful assets to pay for a credit card bill.

If they resign then we need a big change to happen otherwise this cronyism will be allowed to happen again and again. At this stage I don't think I trust FG either and perhaps it's time they did go in to get pasted in two years again. What we will learn and have to learn is that Change, if it is to be valuable, comes slowly over a long period of time and requires a lot of pain and introspection on the way.

Of course FF should resign, but they won't. What political party would willingly fall on its own sword?

The Greens are the ones who should find a reason for ending FF's reign, but they need to be clever and duplicitous about it.

No they shouldn't resign. Or rather, I pray that they do not.

An election will not fix our problems, it will only mean that FG get elected to give us more of the same.

I hope FF continue on, as they are doing and that they keep going until they piss enough people off, so that they are bodily removed from their thrones of excess.

So, keep going lads (in government) ye're doing a great job and ye're accomplishing more than I could ever have dreamed of accomplishing.

Would you vote for them if they resigned Hermes ?

Your first time voting might be a valuable one

But by them being there do you think there's a risk they'll do a lot more damage? I'm kinda concerned they'll squander the reserve money on David Drumm's 3.3 million euro salary

I see the Sunday Independent is quoting Brian Lenihan as sayin that the Government only noticed an economic downturn was underway in July. What planet are these people living in? My Father is an Chartered Accountant with a specialism with insolvency and has been coming home telling us how bad this is going to get for a hell of alot longer than since July, that is for sure.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Would you vote for them if they resigned Hermes ?

Your first time voting might be a valuable one

But by them being there do you think there's a risk they'll do a lot more damage? I'm kinda concerned they'll squander the reserve money on David Drumm's 3.3 million euro salary

I'm not worried about them squandering money at all. That's all they're capable of to begin with. Imo, inflation over the next few years (particularly the next year) will mean that the money wasted on Drumm will be quite worthless. It'll come to a point (I hope), at some point, where we tell the different creditors, hoping to cash in on our alleged national debt, to go fu@k themselves. The same goes for the EU and the €uro. Tis only paper and it does grow on trees.

Though we often hear that the money a society has, is based on GDP, this is imo a fallacy. We have a system based on slavery that is imposed by imaginary debt. The sleeping are stirring. They might yet awake. True, it won't be pretty to begin with. Then again, cleaning this mess up could never be imagined as being pretty work. I see opportunity in our future and I've never seen that before. I dunno if we'll ignore, waste or indeed, capitalise on this opportunity - I'm just glad to see it.

If they don't resign the electorate will use every available opportunity to encourage them to do so. Specifically, the Local Elections (can they be postponed??), but more importantly, Lisbon II. It cannot pass with the current Government in situ. I wonder are FF good enough Europeans to put Lisbon before their own self interest?

coc wrote:

If they don't resign the electorate will use every available opportunity to encourage them to do so. Specifically, the Local Elections (can they be postponed??), but more importantly, Lisbon II. It cannot pass with the current Government in situ. I wonder are FF good enough Europeans to put Lisbon before their own self interest?

A wipe out in the locals imo would be far more damaging. Lisbon is a decision for the voters.

The Locals will be in 2009 but when? There is speculation about June. There is a by-election needed to replace a deceased TD - it is already 3 months since he died. Then there is Lisbon and the European Elections? October is rumoured for Lisbon. When I googled a couple of Postponement/Amendment Acts came up. Can the Government postpone?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/government-in-ireland/elections-and-referenda/local-elections/nomination_of_candidates_in_local_authority_elections

Does anyone have a clear picture of when these elections might be held?

Hey Hermes, you will be happy with the future.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/12/AR2008121204105.html

This leftist is doing exactly the right thing for his people. John Perkins' successers will be after him.

It is not FF's duty to be good Europeans and that is why they demise is soon. A vote for these clowns will be a wasted vote

cactus flower wrote:

coc wrote:

If they don't resign the electorate will use every available opportunity to encourage them to do so. Specifically, the Local Elections (can they be postponed??), but more importantly, Lisbon II. It cannot pass with the current Government in situ. I wonder are FF good enough Europeans to put Lisbon before their own self interest?

A wipe out in the locals imo would be far more damaging. Lisbon is a decision for the voters.

The Locals will be in 2009 but when? There is speculation about June. There is a by-election needed to replace a deceased TD - it is already 3 months since he died. Then there is Lisbon and the European Elections? October is rumoured for Lisbon. When I googled a couple of Postponement/Amendment Acts came up. Can the Government postpone?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/government-in-ireland/elections-and-referenda/local-elections/nomination_of_candidates_in_local_authority_elections

Does anyone have a clear picture of when these elections might be held?

I don't think it is constitutionally possible anymore to delay locals.

Papal Knight wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

coc wrote:

If they don't resign the electorate will use every available opportunity to encourage them to do so. Specifically, the Local Elections (can they be postponed??), but more importantly, Lisbon II. It cannot pass with the current Government in situ. I wonder are FF good enough Europeans to put Lisbon before their own self interest?

A wipe out in the locals imo would be far more damaging. Lisbon is a decision for the voters.

The Locals will be in 2009 but when? There is speculation about June. There is a by-election needed to replace a deceased TD - it is already 3 months since he died. Then there is Lisbon and the European Elections? October is rumoured for Lisbon. When I googled a couple of Postponement/Amendment Acts came up. Can the Government postpone?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/government-in-ireland/elections-and-referenda/local-elections/nomination_of_candidates_in_local_authority_elections

Does anyone have a clear picture of when these elections might be held?

I don't think it is constitutionally possible anymore to delay locals.

That rings bells. So will they go for the locals, European elections and the By-Election all in June? Surely that is too long to keep a constituency without a T.D.?

Hermes wrote:

I'm not worried about them squandering money at all. That's all they're capable of to begin with. Imo, inflation over the next few years (particularly the next year) will mean that the money wasted on Drumm will be quite worthless. It'll come to a point (I hope), at some point, where we tell the different creditors, hoping to cash in on our alleged national debt, to go fu@k themselves. The same goes for the EU and the €uro. Tis only paper and it does grow on trees.

I don't think you get Hermes, if we default on our foreign debt as you suggest, no one will lend us money. Then the government cant pay the wages of the Gardai, teachers etc. As far as I am aware the Government has enough money until July, they will then need to get a loan of 10 Billion Euro to run the country. Then the same next year. There is a danger that we will be told to go F**K ourselves as you say, but not the other way around.

I don't think the government should resign. They have a mandate from the last election and if we have an election now there would be a month-long campaign which would hold the whole business of government up and cause unrest. We need stability in as many respects as possible.

Art wrote:

Hermes wrote:

I'm not worried about them squandering money at all. That's all they're capable of to begin with. Imo, inflation over the next few years (particularly the next year) will mean that the money wasted on Drumm will be quite worthless. It'll come to a point (I hope), at some point, where we tell the different creditors, hoping to cash in on our alleged national debt, to go fu@k themselves. The same goes for the EU and the €uro. Tis only paper and it does grow on trees.

I don't think you get Hermes, if we default on our foreign debt as you suggest, no one will lend us money. Then the government cant pay the wages of the Gardai, teachers etc. As far as I am aware the Government has enough money until July, they will then need to get a loan of 10 Billion Euro to run the country. Then the same next year. There is a danger that we will be told to go F**K ourselves as you say, but not the other way around.

I get it alright. I just disagree, that's the difference.

Imo, nobody should be bankrolling our country but us. If that means dropping the Euro, printing our own money, and rearing and growing our own food. So much the better. This should have never happened to begin with, particularly the food. Being stuck at the painful end of the global beating that capitalism is taking is exactly what we've gotten for pissing away our sovereignty. Now we've an opportunity to regain it and indeed to recapture some of our dignity.

Now who says I can't see things in a positive light?

Hermes wrote:

Art wrote:

Hermes wrote:

I'm not worried about them squandering money at all. That's all they're capable of to begin with. Imo, inflation over the next few years (particularly the next year) will mean that the money wasted on Drumm will be quite worthless. It'll come to a point (I hope), at some point, where we tell the different creditors, hoping to cash in on our alleged national debt, to go fu@k themselves. The same goes for the EU and the €uro. Tis only paper and it does grow on trees.

I don't think you get Hermes, if we default on our foreign debt as you suggest, no one will lend us money. Then the government cant pay the wages of the Gardai, teachers etc. As far as I am aware the Government has enough money until July, they will then need to get a loan of 10 Billion Euro to run the country. Then the same next year. There is a danger that we will be told to go F**K ourselves as you say, but not the other way around.

I get it alright. I just disagree, that's the difference.

Imo, nobody should be bankrolling our country but us. If that means dropping the Euro, printing our own money, and rearing and growing our own food. So much the better. This should have never happened to begin with, particularly the food. Being stuck at the painful end of the global beating that capitalism is taking is exactly what we've gotten for pissing away our sovereignty. Now we've an opportunity to regain it and indeed to recapture some of our dignity.

Now who says I can't see things in a positive light?

How would we manage for the products we have to import, you know, oil and stuff.

Presumably we will also shut down Machine Nation... given that none of us will be able to get on the internet. Green industry is well and good but we don't have much of a steel industry to make those great big turbines people want out at sea and atop mountains... we've gotta import that too.

Denmark is the world's biggest exporter of wind turbines. Not exactly a major industrial power.

Doesn't mean they don't engage in international trade to buy all the steel to build them though, does it?

I am not saying that we shouldn't be a global leader in wind turbines, or anything else for that matter. However, it must be realised that Ireland, whilst perhaps having the skills to build and design such things, does not have the natural resources to have the materials at hand to do so and thus we must import and the only way to do that is through alot of engagement in the global economy. Simple as.

No problem, with all those unwanted ships there is plenty of steel. Let's not get too picky.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/3558527.stm

Right and when we, hypthetically, purposely default on our international debt, no doubt some of which is to India and then create our own currency which is not based on very much how do you propose we buy these wrecked ships from Indian shipyards?

johnfás wrote:

Right and when we, hypthetically, purposely default on our international debt, no doubt some of which is to India and then create our own currency which is not based on very much how do you propose we buy these wrecked ships from Indian shipyards?

O ye of little faith. A group in Sligo builds wind turbines out of very little steel - the blades are wooden in fact the rest could be wooden too. The only steel bit is the copper which isn't steel. It's fairly inexpensive at present so when that National Bond takes off I'll be voting we buy more copper.

Admittedly those windmills wouldn't run much more than a small hippy commune up in the Burren or in West Mayo but sure what more could you want? As long as you had a mobile phone that worked by the sun plus your Netbook the same, you could run all sorts of things off your bit of electricity then. You wouldn't need much if you supplemented it all with candles, gas and a turf fire. There is plenty of gas in this country still.

And if you had a mind to go down and forage for some seaweed to ate you'd find that some of that seaweed has enough lipids once crushed out to run your car. Olive oil from the sea. Or you could go for the algae. If you are wondering whether you'd need a mechanic then just buy Toyota at the start and you'll be fine.

The sheep could make your jumpers and could be eaten and chased down hills in times of boredom. You could do art and knit and sell it to the fascinated Chinese who are down for the day from their extensive Dublin colony of Irish Chinatown just South of the Liffey where The George is the only Irish enclave within in an enclave left there - rather like a forlorn Jerusalem.

The smaller Japanese colony would want to buy your seaweed to make Yaki-Nora or something so you could trade stuff with them for that. You might get your rice supply from these people with which you could make

Sake
Milk
Cakes
Rice Crispies
Pudding
Paper
Stuff to throw at weddings

You could even use it for plain food if you got tired of the spuds.

You'd be fine.

Dev's dream of people blogging at the Crossroads will finally come true.

Jesus Christ almighty it'll be great.

These questions regarding imports and exports are important. No doubt about that. But I think, that if you're to take what I'm saying seriously, you must explore all the avenues that it opens, as opposed to the facade of my point and then add in the 'same as usual' picture as an afterthought to it. It doesn't and won't work that way, as is obvious.

The whole picture must be changed, as too must the way we compose it, take it and develop it.

With regard to oil and gas. First of all we must calculate how much we need for ourselves and remove the amount we need to act as slaves for multinationals. Let them buy their own and bring it in, if they're still allowed in. Next we must nationalise all our indigenous resources and if necessary bring in labour and expertise from abroad to exploit them, for our needs.

Steel etc. Most of the metals we utilise are used up in the manufacturing industry, to be exported. End that, introduce recycling and our needs can be met with a minimum of fuss with regard to imports and expenditure.

I'm giving a very rudimentary answer to complex questions and it should suffice to show a methodology as opposed to providing a comprehensive answer. Our whole methodology and ethos with regard to how we function as a nation must change to facilitate the picture I'm painting. It is a fundamental restructuring of our whole society, not a patch on a porus tyre. It's by no means an easy thing and indeed, it'd take smarter folks, by a long shot, than myself, to accomplish it. It may be pie in the sky. But I reach for it nonethteless. I see it as a superior goal than looking forward to going, cap in hand, to beg for a handout from those who produce nothing but despair and misery.

I mean, we must ask ourselves, surely at some point, if we are capable of independent existence. Not a xenophobic isolationist existence mind you, but a mature and decisive one all the same. If we're not, we're doomed to failure and moreso, imo, we deserve it.

I've no issue with tightening my belt. Indeed I'll tighten it till I drop and can move no more. But I'll be damned if I'll do it just to facilitate the same crap again, to await another generation. Our ancestors, generations of them, died and spilled their guts so that we would and could rule ourselves. Imo, we spat on them from the moment we formed our nation and immediately saddled ourselves with new rulers and landlords. They died for us to have an opportunity and we have yet to honour them. Indeed, it is now seen as being a lunatic or undemocratic to have such dreams and goals.

At what point was the word "sovereign," redefined? And who is responsible for it?

Self sufficiency is a necessary condition for sovereignty to be possible. We'll always be in a position where we'll need to trade. Becoming a race of beggars and slaves is to move in the opposite direction to sovereignty. Which of the two methodologies discussed on this thread moves towards self sufficiency and which moves away? Indeed, let us discuss the true nature of patriotism next and let us start by saying that patriotism has nothing whatsoever to do with shopping.