Live webcast Monday - "Ireland and Europe in 2009 - An unclear horizon?"

I am there.

The audio has very high SNR, I can hear mains hum in the noise, and the distortion levels seem quite high too.

Jaysus I couldn't listen to Joe Costelloe there - ... it's back now.. Bit better..

Working well now...

Defiinitely the way to go. Not how I had planned to spend my morning - but glad I did. Well done ibis.

Kate P wrote:

Defiinitely the way to go. Not how I had planned to spend my morning - but glad I did. Well done ibis.

Well done indeed ibis - I can see vast potential in this. I'm convinced there is a mine to be mined out of just expanding democracy itself.

Another one on soon ?

Copy of the first part of the Chat box chat: it reads from bottom to top.


#cactus flower(11:53):Very good show
#cactus flower(11:53):Less of a party political perspective?
#Kate P(11:52):How so, cactus?
#Audi(11:52):It's a good show overall
#cactus flower(11:51):That was more useful than I expected
#johnfás(11:51):is ronan mullen not there ?
#Audi(11:50):reload johnfás
#johnfás(11:49):my stream has gone wild
#Audi(11:49):Ah, the privatisation of public services .. that's the NeoLiberal business ..
#cactus flower(11:49):Oh - no I wasn't calling her a ho.
#cactus flower(11:48):Outraged Innocence !!!
#cactus flower(11:48):What did I do ????
#Audi(11:47):x2
#johnfás(11:47):now no cactus give the lady a chance, you said joe higgins was on track before he even started talking
#ANON(11:47):fluff?
#Kate P(11:47):Fluff.
#cactus flower(11:47):A "do-over" ho ho
#Kate P(11:46):If there's a time limit, he's gone way over it.
#ANON(11:45):he's right on aer lingus
#Kate P(11:45):Working people have no interest in running Europe, - that's a small hitch
#johnfás(11:45):He made the same speech everytime I heard him when I was at college
#Audi(11:44):maybe it's starting from scratch down in Greece - cradle of Democracy
#cactus flower(11:44):It is a speech not a contribution to a discussion, but I'd say that he is addressing a broader audienced. Will this go up as a youtube?
#johnfás(11:44):union together*
#johnfás(11:44):how do you propose starting from scratch cactus... the EU was able to establish itself in the first place because of a prevailing condition at a particular moment in history... if you start from scratch I'd put money on states not being able to get a uni
#ANON(11:43):he's right on the commissioner though....
#Audi(11:43):Yeah tis good indeed kate - loads of potential
#cactus flower(11:43):I wonder does he see the Democratic Socialist Europe run for and by working people as achievable by reform of the EU or starting from scratch?
#Kate P(11:42):I could get used to this, running commentary while the speaker keeps talking.
#cactus flower(11:41):The one concrete thing he has mentioned was the vote base for the No vote - but that is an important point
#johnfás(11:41):anti establishment, neo liberal, socialist left, right wing reactionary economic policies, political establishment...
#Kate P(11:40):He makes good copy, cactus
#Kate P(11:40):It bugs me that there are interesting points in there - such as the role of the media, but the bombast damages the message
#cactus flower(11:40):Sindo gave him half a page yesterday (g)
#johnfás(11:39):already in agreement with him*
#johnfás(11:39):He hasn't progressed to the specifics of this treaty yet... he is just giving his bog standard speech and could be as easily on the future of socialism or any other topic as it is about the Lisbon treaty... however i am sure it will satisfy the people al
#cactus flower(11:38):The G word
#Kate P(11:38):He's not really, Audi. He's looking for a hook on which to hang his anti-capitalist, social-rhetorical and idealism that calls every one not on his side a propagandist
#Audi(11:36):The Treaty pushing the NeoLib line though ... ?
#cactus flower(11:36):He needs to give some specifics - just a few anyway
#Kate P(11:35):On form so far...
#Kate P(11:35):Joe may give that impression but he will probably say the same things he usuallydoes -
#Audi(11:35):He's putting it in some context though
#cactus flower(11:34):I had a question for him
#johnfás(11:34):Although often joe just spouts and doesn't address the specific issues, we'll see how he gets on
#cactus flower(11:34):At last someone who has thought about what he is going to say.
#cactus flower(11:33):Joe Higgins and Ronan are there too - government blaming is a waste of time on this I agree.
#cactus flower(11:33):Joe Higgins and Ronan are there too - government blaming is a waste of time on this I agree.
#johnfás(11:32):That looks like noel dempsey walking past there
#Kate P(11:32):sound great now, thanks
#Kate P(11:32):What's this about dialogue with the groups who were all on the same side anyway - except a way of placing total blame on the government parties for the failure of Lisbon 1.
#cactus flower(11:32):assurances are, like most of any Treaty, also subject of interpretation and the amount of energy with which they are followed through.
#Audi(11:31):thanks
#ANON(11:31):much better
#ANON(11:31):nice!
#streamer(11:30):back up now
#johnfás(11:29):don't worry
#streamer(11:29):will be a slight break
#streamer(11:29):going to make a quick change to try and improve the audio
#johnfás(11:28):Most of the assurances aren't necessary anyway, they're only explaining what is already there
#ANON(11:28):assurances aren't worth the paper they are printed on
#johnfás(11:28):It was a silly comparison on an awful lot of levels
#Kate P(11:27):It's very different treaty and a very different context - I' not liking that comparison
#Audi(11:27):TheBear and Zakalwe are back - had they eloped
#johnfás(11:25):They're all wearing radio mikes so it wouldnt make a difference
#cactus flower(11:25):the theme "An unclear horizon is a presume intended to keep it very open, which is good, but inevitably a bit unfocused - perhaps it will come together over time.
#Audi(11:25):He should swap seats with Lucinda for the sound
#Kate P(11:24):he he
#johnfás(11:24):I agree... sounded like a presentation to a college tutorial
#Kate P(11:24):Appalling presentation by LC
#cactus flower(11:23):It is certainly worth talking about more checks and balances - there is an enormous gravy train and frequent allegations of nepotism. We have just had a horrible lesson on how important independent oversight and regulation is.
#ANON(11:23):in other words YES
#cactus flower(11:22):One mans uniquely Irish value is another man's off the wall obsession
#Kate P(11:21):FG don't do numbers, but if they did...
#johnfás(11:21):Difficult to put a number on it unless you have studied it precisely and worked out what departments could be merged and how...
#cactus flower(11:21):A slimmed down Commission - does she want to put a number on it I wonder.
#Audi(11:20):Does it scrutinise the Dáil at all ? It also give senators a vote no ?
#johnfás(11:20):All of those address that issue
#johnfás(11:20):It gives greater powers of scrutiny to the Dáil
#ANON(11:20):we were part of europe all through the 80s and we didn't get any help at all!
#johnfás(11:19):It demands transparency from the European Institutions, eg the council
#johnfás(11:19):It allows one million citizens to petition to commission to address legislative progression of the treaties
#wooee(11:19):she can marry me
#wooee(11:19):she can marry me
#Audi(11:19):How does the Treaty engage citizens of Europe ??
#ANON(11:19):so there is a difference between her (political class) and us (the ordinary people)??
#Kate P(11:18):It is true that Lucinda speaks an infinite deal of nothing. She'll come to life if there's row...
#ANON(11:17):she's just one big cliche! this hasn't been seen since the genius of Steve Staunton!!!
#Audi(11:16):Mulle was Student Union president in UCG - he's religious is and just had counterfeit Mass Cards dealt with properly
#cactus flower(11:16):He would represent a similar constituency perhaps - good to hear that side
#johnfás(11:16):I had a chat with him during lent last year - decent bloke but I wouldn't agree with him on alot of stuff
#Kate P(11:16):strong views on genetic engineering.Not Libertas though
#johnfás(11:15):He is a senator for the nui
#johnfás(11:15):Not quite libertas to be fair to him
#cactus flower(11:15):libertas - ish?
#Audi(11:15):Ronan Mullen is a senator from Galway. He's a catholic writer
#Kate P(11:14):reducing the sensitivity of the mic but oomphing the sound going out might work
#Audi(11:14):Ah, What about the speakers banging when he speaks loudly ?
#cactus flower(11:14):Its OK its audible. Who is Ronan Mullen?
#ANON(11:13):they use it recording studios to stops the S sound when a singer gets too close to the mikeor just turn the treble down
#ANON(11:13):they use it recording studios to stops the S sound when a singer gets too close to the mike
#Audi(11:12):What's a de-esser ?
#streamer(11:12):not sure if we can improve the audio during the event - we'll clean it up for the archive - sorry all
#ANON(11:11):a de-esser would do the trick
#Audi(11:10):picture perfect, audio ringing in the speakers a bit - improving though
#streamer(11:10):sorry - we'll see if we can improve it
#johnfás(11:09):stalls for me a bit but could be my connection
#Audi(11:09):audio not great - a bit buzzy
#ANON(11:09):detained?? we can only dream
#streamer(11:08):is audio ok ?
#cactus flower(11:08):Connection seems OK now
#johnfás(11:08):hes detained... detained!
#ANON(11:08):dicky running scared???
#cactus flower(11:08):Connection seems OK now
#cactus flower(11:08):Connection seems OK now
#cactus flower(11:08):Connection seems OK now
#ANON(11:07):very poor
#cactus flower(11:07):This is good
#Audi(11:07):Ok I didn't . That was just a reminder that there are people who do - remember them at Christmas
#EVM(11:07):Audio is poor.
#Audi(11:06):I was really drunk and lost.
#johnfás(11:06):You slept on that alley?
#Audi(11:06):They look nervous. Never been on thei internet before ?
#Audi(11:05):I'm sure I slept in an alley near there once
#johnfás(11:04):same side of the road as Waterstones but further up towards the green
#EVM(11:04):Is that Joe Costelloe on the left of the grounp ?
#johnfás(11:04):The door you can see opposite is Davy Stockbrokers... controversial
#Audi(11:04):Is that near Watershtones ?
#EVM(11:03):Get the number off the next bus that passes
#johnfás(11:03):It is in European Union House on Dawson St
#johnfás(11:02):hooray, i made it... does it keep stalling on people or is that my connection?
#Audi(11:02):Joe'll turn up. Where's it on again ?
#EVM(11:02):I see Joe is there.
#Audi(11:02):testing testing one-two
#johnfás(11:01):hmmm
#johnfas(11:01):hmmm
#ANON(00:35):test

Second Part of Chat - also reads from bottom to top;


#Audi(12:54):detention of three year olds, rampant abortion - why not nukes ? Cuppa tae on MN anyone ?
#WooPee(12:53):nuclear missiles in ireland?
#cactus flower(12:53):Thanks very much
#streamer(12:53):yes we'll have the archive up as soon as possible
#streamer(12:53):yes we'll have the archive up as soon as possible
#WooPee(12:53):thank you for preparing this steam and conversation
#Audi(12:53):Damn they didn't ask my question about putting nuclear missiles in Ireland
#cactus flower(12:53):will this be archived?
#Kate P(12:53):Thanks for that. .
#streamer(12:52):that's all folks - thanks for watching
#cactus flower(12:52):Thanks to everyone who put this together
#cactus flower(12:52):Was the point about it being subordinate to the market correct?
#johnfás(12:51):Because the European Union is going to endorse the ECHR so that it can be argued before the community courts
#cactus flower(12:51):And why is it constantly being offered up as a reason to vote for the Treaty?
#ANON(12:50):so if it is already in force why vote on it again?
#johnfás(12:50):The ECHR is already implemented in Irish Law
#johnfás(12:50):The legal explanation is from the ECHR not the Charter
#johnfás(12:50):Anon, you are there quoting the ECHR which is already Irish Law following the ECHR Act 2003
#ANON(12:49):NP
#cactus flowerz(12:49):thanks Anon
#ANON(12:49):read the lagal explanation in detail
#cactus flowerz(12:49):Good point being made in relation to the history of workers rights and the EU
#ANON(12:48):http://www.eucharter.org/home.php?page_id=13
#johnfás(12:47):Article 6 which you refer to: Right to liberty and security Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person.
#Kate P(12:47):Maybe it's time for an MN discussion on the charter.
#johnfás(12:46):there is no mention of drug addicts
#johnfás(12:46):http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf here is the charter of fundamental rights
#ANON(12:46):look at subsection 1 (e)
#Kate P(12:46):Hello TheBear
#johnfás(12:46):it is not merely saying that drug addicts need to be locked up
#cactus flowerz(12:46):Charter of Fundamental Rights and the ECJ says are rights are determined by the market JH
#johnfás(12:45):but beyond that, all implementation of EU law must be done within the bounds of reasonableness
#johnfás(12:45):Well for a start article 6 of teh charter of fundamental rights actually refers to personal security
#cactus flowerz(12:45):If we have it at national level why do we need it at EU level?
#TheBear(12:45):Damn my lack of computer speakers!
#Kate P(12:44):Yep. But I imagine he's referring to questions. I missed the context of the alcoholics What point was made?
#ANON(12:44):but in relation to locking them up should the article in the charter not include something about treatment for said alcoholics and drug addicts????
#johnfás(12:43):I think he made that up
#johnfás(12:43):did he just say on the blog we have discussed workers rights?
#johnfás(12:42):Because perhaps there is not the same robust legislation in other member states
#ANON(12:42):so why then do we need the EU version if thats the case?
#johnfás(12:41):Mental Health Acts... Ward of Courts Acts... etc
#johnfás(12:41):anon, we already have such laws in Irish legislation
#ANON(12:40):I'm tempted to try and alternative starting with Pr but there's no edit option here
#ANON(12:40):the lawful detention of persons for the prevention of the spreading of infectious diseases, of persons of unsound mind, alcoholics or drug addicts or vagrants;”
#Kate P(12:40):Thanks, back to normal. I think that guy is with Roger Cole's organisation.
#ANON(12:39):Oh look - you can't say **** here
#johnfás(12:39):I saw noel dempsey walk past the window on the street... he must have looked in and ran :-P
#ANON(12:39):sorry took me a while to find it on the alcoholics .... it's in Art 6. Right to liberty and security of the charter
#ANON(12:39):Did FF not send a stand in for **** Roche/
#johnfás(12:38):It is just a rant about the Irish neutrality policy... which has been suspect for over half a century
#streamer(12:38):@kate - hit the refresh icon (bottom left) it should bring video and audio into sync
#johnfás(12:37):Lisbon does not affect any of these things he is talking about
#Kate P(12:37):I still have Sarah Carey - the pictures are way behind for me. Old people are starting to bug me. Positive discrimination on age grounds is still discrimination. Grrr
#cactus flower(12:37):Who is the Irish Anti War movement?
#johnfás(12:35):seems to be what he is arguing
#cactus flower(12:35):Maybe we should dissolve the Dail and let the Senior Citizens and Youth Parliaments take over
#johnfás(12:34):in fairness though, this could take 15 minutes, look how many sheets of paper he has
#johnfás(12:34):got slapped down
#cactus flower(12:33):Chairperson getting shirty
#cactus flower(12:33):had to leave for a minute - where is the thing about alcoholics?
#cactus flower(12:33):had to leave for a minute - where is the thing about alcoholics?
#johnfás(12:30):everyone has to cover wide briefs in their jobs... doesn't mean u can make it up
#johnfás(12:29):"sooooo, here's the thing"
#ANON(12:28):i've read it and it advocates the locking up of alcoholics......
#johnfás(12:27):I agree with Lucinda on that point.
#johnfás(12:26):Yes, it is not going to happen.
#Audi(12:26):Is the referendum across europe idea pure academia ?
#ANON(12:26):the "concept"
#ANON(12:23):it is accurate in some ways , the majority of yes votes in lisbon 1 came from south county dublin.....hardly working class ....
#Audi(12:23):Ireland might be ignored ... ? exactly - what provisions are there in the Treaty for the event of it being rejected ??
#WooPee(12:22):whos this guy?
#johnfás(12:22):i love how it was the french working class who rejected it... nobody else in france voted no... obviously...
#WooPee(12:21):ireland might be ignored in the futureif voted no again
#WooPee(12:21):ireland might be ignored in the future
#Audi(12:21):Jaysus that's some excuse D1ck put out !
#Kate P(12:21):Eek. I obviously withdraw my earlier comment that he had chickened out.
#Audi(12:21):Jaysus that's some excuse **** put out !
#ANON(12:20):thats mental
#ANON(12:20):whats the question?
#johnfás(12:19):http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsnaugbaugb/
#johnfás(12:18):**** Roche's unavoidable detainment is seemingly that he was held up at an armed robbery
#cactus flower(12:18):Didn't understand the point of that question
#johnfás(12:17):something wickham
#cactus flower(12:17):Blast - missed the questioner again
#cactus flower(12:17):Blast - missed the questioner again
#johnfás(12:15):yes, completely off topic
#Kate P(12:15):Off topic, though, imho.
#Kate P(12:14):Ah the fishermen. They came to prominence towards the end of Lisbon 1
#Kate P(12:14):If everyone was accurate, I wonder would we be having Lisbon 2 at all.
#cactus flower(12:13):A real person.
#johnfás(12:13):she tried to get me to do a masters in eu politics - whit whoo
#ANON(12:13):commitment to be accurate - so important
#johnfás(12:12):who they then pit against each other*
#cactus flower(12:12):Thanks
#johnfás(12:12):bridget laffan, ucd politics lecturer
#johnfás(12:12):he is right about the lobbiests and the commission... then again the only way to combat that is to give the EU more money... the commission does not have a sufficient budget to carry out its own research so it depends on the research of lobbyests who they
#cactus flower(12:12):Who is this questioner?
#johnfás(12:11):ah briget, we go back a long way
#cactus flower(12:11):The point about the armaments industry is a very valid one imo - the French got it in and are determined to drive it as they are big arms manufacturers.
#cactus flower(12:10):Vehement then, if not annoyed
#cactus flower(12:10):Vehement then, if not annoyed
#cactus flower(12:10):sorry johnfas gave the right MN addess
#Kate P(12:10):Not a bit annoyed. You should checkout the FOrum podcasts.
#johnfás(12:08):now shes annoyed
#Kate P(12:07):That's a headline post.
#cactus flower(12:06):machinenation@forumakers.com
#ANON(12:06):cheers
#cactus flower(12:06):machinenation@forumakers.com
#johnfás(12:06):machinenation.forumakers.com
#ANON(12:06):whats MN?????
#Kate P(12:06):Yep - glad to see rocky back
#Kate P(12:05):Disingenuous Joe.
#cactus flower(12:05):great post from rockyracoon on MN
#johnfás(12:05):ah come on joe
#johnfás(12:04):indeed
#Kate P(12:04):Nope. Ignoring the previous vote is not new - that was flagged well last time around.
#ANON(12:04):but they keep being asked
#ANON(12:04):exactly
#johnfás(12:03):switzerland aren't members
#cactus flower(12:03):Not good response although honest
#Audi(12:03):Plenty of scary stuff getting voiced there about a Treaty which is meant to smooth the running of an already well-knit bloc.
#ANON(12:03):how many times have switzerland rejected euro treaties?????
#cactus flower(12:02): So far Kate P, have you heard anything new, apart from the matter of the re-run and ignoring the previous vote?
#Kate P(12:00):It's the Forum on Europe all over again - speeches, not questions. Ah there's Brendan, me auld flower
#ANON(12:00):well said, gilmore will never oppose lisbon 2
#johnfás(11:59):the IRSP guy, hes asked about 4 questions now
#johnfás(11:59):the IRSP guy
#cactus flower(11:59):Kevin Rafter - or IRSP guy?
#johnfás(11:59):how many questions is this guy going to ask
#Audi(11:58):Small stroll down memory lane, Kate
#Kate P(11:58):So boys and girls, what did we learn from this today? Are we any further on?
#Audi(11:58):Maybe Aragon IS Joe Higgins ?
#cactus flower(11:57):aragon would have enjoyed this - where is she?
#johnfás(11:56):reactionary right... it is like letter land or something
#johnfás(11:56):oh joe, would you ever give up on the clichés
#Audi(11:56):So when will the whole re-education programme start on Lisbon II ?
#Kate P(11:55):Carey and Lucinda too. Back to English class to learn how to write a decent paragraph
#johnfás(11:54):now they're on tv - gotcha
#johnfás(11:54):those girls should be in school
#cactus flower(11:54):Not true about the Dail - no nuspeak by and large
#johnfás(11:53):I didn't think it I was great to be honest... hopefully the discussion now will improve it
#Kate P(11:53):tis indeed a good show.
#cactus flower(11:53):Very good show
#cactus flower(11:53):Less of a party political perspective?

Dick Roche's excuse was the best I've heard yet.

Was a good exercise. Pity the webchat reads the opposite way to how you would expect.

Is the armed robbery story true johnfas?

cactus flower wrote:

Is the armed robbery story true johnfas?

It's on the BBC website for whatever that's worth!

Yes, it was down in Druid's Glen. Roche had a gun put to his back and then was locked in a room with several others.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7783620.stm

It is also the top story on the Sky News Website http://news.sky.com/skynews/

johnfás wrote:

Was a good exercise. Pity the webchat reads the opposite way to how you would expect.

Unfortunately, the other way round makes it hard to keep it scrolled to the right line...I'll reverse it for cactus' version.

BTW, thanks guys - you were a great audience!

Atticus wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Is the armed robbery story true johnfas?

It's on the BBC website for whatever that's worth!

sorry for being a bit abrupt with that, running around @ work.

saw most of the webcast - well done Ibis. Lots of ideas for the future.
also saw why politicians need to up their game enormously on this subject.
sorry gotta go ...

So are there more of these planned for the future, ibis?

Kate P wrote:

So are there more of these planned for the future, ibis?

Absolutely. Need to build audience, obviously, but the fact that it's there is a start. We hope to make the service available on a request basis to cover any debate of European interest. I also hope to push for doing some Commissioner/bigwig interviews through the service specifically for the online audience, with the questions coming purely from the website - sort of a face to face format, ideally for any Commissioner that visits Ireland.

ibis wrote:

Kate P wrote:

So are there more of these planned for the future, ibis?

Absolutely. Need to build audience, obviously, but the fact that it's there is a start. We hope to make the service available on a request basis to cover any debate of European interest. I also hope to push for doing some Commissioner/bigwig interviews through the service specifically for the online audience, with the questions coming purely from the website - sort of a face to face format, ideally for any Commissioner that visits Ireland.

I enjoyed that Ibis - well done. Stimulating rather than informative, but a good thing overall. How much notice do they give you of these things? If we had time we could pm members for questions a few days ahead.

cactus flower wrote:

ibis wrote:

Kate P wrote:

So are there more of these planned for the future, ibis?

Absolutely. Need to build audience, obviously, but the fact that it's there is a start. We hope to make the service available on a request basis to cover any debate of European interest. I also hope to push for doing some Commissioner/bigwig interviews through the service specifically for the online audience, with the questions coming purely from the website - sort of a face to face format, ideally for any Commissioner that visits Ireland.

I enjoyed that Ibis - well done. Stimulating rather than informative, but a good thing overall. How much notice do they give you of these things? If we had time we could pm members for questions a few days ahead.

It was confirmed to me last thing on Thursday. I'm angling for a bit more notice...maybe a whole week, something like that.

A week would give us a bit more time to think of our questions. Dick Roche's inexcusable absence due to armed abduction was a bit of a glitch. Did he ring from his mobile to explain his predicament?

It was insult to injury that his name came up as **** Roche in the chatbox.

All in all, I found it quite an exciting thing, for the potential it has for interaction and discussion with politicians.

It's liberating to be able to whisper to ones companions without irritating the speakers.

It's not your fault, ibis but the quality of the speakers was grim. It bodes very, very not well for Lisbon#2.

Kate P wrote:

It's liberating to be able to whisper to ones companions without irritating the speakers.

It's not your fault, ibis but the quality of the speakers was grim. It bodes very, very not well for Lisbon#2.

It's an issue, alright. What's actually needed is to mobilise the really quite passionate supporters the Treaty has. Unfortunately, they come from what one might call the politically disaggregated classes.

Alot of very strong supporters of Lisbon who I know are also entirely disaffected by most parties in the Dáil and thus whilst heavily political in terms of their thought processes (and indeed their university education) are not functioning in the political system beyond chat among friends.

I admit I was "Anon" who hurrahed B Laffan's point about accuracy today, I think you responded, Kate, along the lines of "well if we had accuracy, maybe we wouldn't be having Lisbon2". And you are right of course.

I have downloaded a bit of Laffan's web-published work over the last four or so years and referenced her in essays. I thought she was good today. I was dismayed at the input of the full-time politicians however. I missed a tiny bit so I WILL watch the whole thing again. Because I live abroad, I didn't immerse myself last time but think I will this time round.

Atticus wrote:

I admit I was "Anon" who hurrahed B Laffan's point about accuracy today, I think you responded, Kate, along the lines of "well if we had accuracy, maybe we wouldn't be having Lisbon2". And you are right of course.

I have downloaded a bit of Laffan's web-published work over the last four or so years and referenced her in essays. I thought she was good today. I was dismayed at the input of the full-time politicians however. I missed a tiny bit so I WILL watch the whole thing again. Because I live abroad, I didn't immerse myself last time but think I will this time round.

Which reminds me to put up the archived streams.