eoinmn wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

Could some ingredient which gets added to some other animal-food ingredient which is in turn imported and which our pigs eat and then themselves become ingredients for our stir fries, originate outside the EU ?

I don't see how "country of origin" labels change this.
If bread from France goes to a food company in Carlow. That company makes feed which goes to a pig farm in Cork.
The country of origin on the pork will be Ireland. No?

That makes sense eoin but scientifically it's not true is it ?

DDT PCB. Some of the animal originated outside the EU. Warning: May contain nuts.

No ?

Yeah, but are we to start listing the feed that a pig fed on and where it came from on all packs of rashers?

That might not be a bad thing but it sounds excessive.

I'm surprised we don't already ! Since the way DDT was found in odd places like the South Pole etc. don't you think we'd pay more care and attention with this food chain we're living in ?

We should have something like this but now with an extra traceability petal:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7604996.stm

from the indo article youngdan posted, Ivan Yeates is criticising the Govt. for pulling all the meat when only a fraction of it may be affected.

No traceability he's saying. "Either it's healthy or it's not". We ARE getting mixed messages from officials.

Quote :

THE Government was accused last night of over-reacting to the pig-meat scare by banning all pig products, even those with no connection to the contaminated feed.

Agriculture Minister Brendan Smith was also in the firing line for undermining the confidence in Irish pork through his failure to answer key questions.

The Dail will have a special debate today on the contamination scare.

Former Agriculture Minister Ivan Yates questioned the decision to recall all Irish pork as he said "you either have a traceability scheme or you don't".

"They didn't really think about all this when they made their announcement on Saturday. They went for a simplistic solution that wasn't necessary. This blanket ban is really quite unrealistic," he said.

After going through the BSE scare during his time as minister in the mid-1990s, the former Fine Gael TD said ministers must be "ruthless" when putting queries to their health officials.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-overreacted-when-it-pulled-pork-off-shelves-1567919.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1209/pork.html

Quote :

No beef recall despite positive test

The public has been told there no public health concern relating to Irish beef products despite a small number of positive dioxin tests.

Out of 11 herds for which results are available, three tested above legislative limits for PCBs in beef.

According to the Food Safety Authority and the Department of Agriculture, the three that did come back positive were 'technically' non-complaint.

However the Government has stressed that the dioxins were not found at a level level that poses any public health concern.

There will be no beef recall.

'technically' non-complaint. ??

Does that mean the same as plain old non-compliant ?

johnfás wrote:

Perhaps their bailout should include the placing of their employees on a more permanent footing.

I think one of the terms and conditions of the bailout should be that they agree to daily dioxin testing, done by a government agency, but paid for by the processing company.

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

'technically' non-complaint. ??

Does that mean the same as plain old non-compliant ?

How does this traceability work ? The beef version looks a lot handier than the other one for pigs anyhow. I wonder how it works. Does each leg or loin get a numbered stamp which indicates tons of info about the cut ?

We need to find an irish farmers forum online.

edit
http://www.irishfarming.ie/

Auditor #9 wrote:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1209/pork.html

Quote :

No beef recall despite positive test

The public has been told there no public health concern relating to Irish beef products despite a small number of positive dioxin tests.

Out of 11 herds for which results are available, three tested above legislative limits for PCBs in beef.

According to the Food Safety Authority and the Department of Agriculture, the three that did come back positive were 'technically' non-complaint.

However the Government has stressed that the dioxins were not found at a level level that poses any public health concern.

There will be no beef recall.

Do you think that's because of the surrounding circumstances? Coming up to Christmas, economy struggling, no pork etc. That they simply can't afford to take it off the shelves? It seems a bit absurd to set limits for levels of certain toxins but then say it's okay when things go above those limits.

Evercloserunion I think it does reflect the circumstances but also it might just reflect common sense -- from the Irish Times a minute ago.

Quote :

Farmers urge consumers to continue buying beef

Tests were carried out on 11 cattle farms following the recent pigmeat recall and three of the farms concerned showed the levels of dioxins were two to three times legal levels. This compares to levels found in pork of 80 to 200 times the limit.

Young farmer's association Macra na Feirme said the positive test results on three beef herds for dioxins was a blow to the beef industry. However, its president Catherine Buckley said there was no need for a disproportionate response as produce from the affected farms could easily be identified and removed from the food chain.

She added that beef has a mandatory labelling system which this allows for comprehensive traceability from farm to consumer as well as a Cattle Movement and Monitoring System which allows for traceability of cattle through the food chain.

Elsewhere, the Irish Cattle and Sheep Farmer's Association, which represents 10,000 members, reminded consumers that 99 per cent of Irish beef is not affected by the scare.Its president Malcolm Thompson said that today's test results only pertain to three of the 45 restricted herds, out of a total of 112,000 livestock farms nationwide.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1209/breaking67.htm

I'm going to continue eating pork, I like to live dangerously.

Article from Iowa University in 2002 a good while after the BSE scares. Are we lurching from crisis to crisis ?

Quote :

Several livestock and meat-related crises have given rise to increased worldwide consumer concern over meat safety and an increased desire for information about the meat products they purchase. During the past several years, a series of food safety and animal disease crises has occurred in the European Union (EU), including dioxin contamination of livestock feed, the announcement of the possible link between Bovine Spongiform Encephalophathy (BSE) and new-variant Cruetzfeldt-Jakob disease, and outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease and classical swine fever. Many EU consumers have lost confidence in the safety of meat products (especially beef) and in the ability of regulatory agencies to protect the food supply. Not surprisingly, the European Union now leads most other countries in the development and mandatory implementation of traceability protocols for livestock and meat products.
The EU livestock identification and registration system is comprised of ear tags that contain a unique registration number for individual animal identification (double tagging is used); computerized databases of births, deaths, and animal movements; animal passports; and registers for each farm. Effective January 1, 2002, all EU beef products must be labeled with the following information:

* Country of animal's birth
* Country/countries of fattening
* Reference number linking the meat to an animal or group of animals
* Country of slaughter and establishment number of slaughterhouse
* Country/countries of cutting and approval number of cutting plant(s)
* If the beef is from animals born, raised, and slaughtered within a single EU member state, the label may read "Origin: (name of member state)"
* If the beef is from a third country (non-EU member), the label may say "Origin: (name of third country)"

Ground beef labels must list the following:

* A traceability code
* Member state of slaughter
* Member state of preparation
* Member state or states of origin, if different from state of preparation

The new EU standards will have a limited direct impact on U.S. meat producers because U.S. exports to the European Union are quite small. However, if countries that are important markets for U.S. meat products adopt the EU traceability standards, the impact could be substantial.

http://www.card.iastate.edu/iowa_ag_review/winter_02/traceability.aspx

Auditor #9 wrote:

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

'technically' non-complaint. ??

Does that mean the same as plain old non-compliant ?

How does this traceability work ? The beef version looks a lot handier than the other one for pigs anyhow. I wonder how it works. Does each leg or loin get a numbered stamp which indicates tons of info about the cut ?

We need to find an irish farmers forum online.

edit
[url=http://www.irishfarming.ie/

http://www.irishfarming.ie/[/quote[/url]]

My understanding on this is that because of the numbers - 2,000 a day were being processed in Edenderry, for example - pigs are traced in batches, whereas with sheep and cattle, the individual animal can be traced, farm to fork. I'm not sure how many are in a batch, I imagine it depends.

Auditor #9 wrote:

eoinmn wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

Could some ingredient which gets added to some other animal-food ingredient which is in turn imported and which our pigs eat and then themselves become ingredients for our stir fries, originate outside the EU ?

I don't see how "country of origin" labels change this.
If bread from France goes to a food company in Carlow. That company makes feed which goes to a pig farm in Cork.
The country of origin on the pork will be Ireland. No?

That makes sense eoin but scientifically it's not true is it ?

DDT PCB. Some of the animal originated outside the EU. Warning: May contain nuts.

No ?

'country of origin' labelling has been a bugbear of farmers' for a long time, because it allows a lot of foreign meat - particularly pork, to be imported mashed up with some ingredients and turned into Irish sausages, for example. If it's processed and packed here, afaik, it gets the Irish title.

Will check with Mr P and edit as necessary.

Kate P wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

eoinmn wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

Could some ingredient which gets added to some other animal-food ingredient which is in turn imported and which our pigs eat and then themselves become ingredients for our stir fries, originate outside the EU ?

I don't see how "country of origin" labels change this.
If bread from France goes to a food company in Carlow. That company makes feed which goes to a pig farm in Cork.
The country of origin on the pork will be Ireland. No?

That makes sense eoin but scientifically it's not true is it ?

DDT PCB. Some of the animal originated outside the EU. Warning: May contain nuts.

No ?

'country of origin' labelling has been a bugbear of farmers' for a long time, because it allows a lot of foreign meat - particularly pork, to be imported mashed up with some ingredients and turned into Irish sausages, for example. If it's processed and packed here, afaik, it gets the Irish title.

Will check with Mr P and edit as necessary.

That's what I interpreted from Padraig Walshe and Avril Doyle on the One O'Clock news today. Essentially part of the animal may be from a different country - the fat-soluble man-made organic compounds for example. There must be a bit of a campaign on to have this changed.

What about the tracing ? Does each cow get a barcode do you know ?

johnfás wrote:

I'm going to continue eating pork, I like to live dangerously.

I suggest that you read up on pcbs yourself first johnfas before you decide to chance it.

I have just watched most of the Brendan Smith / Mairead McGuinness slot of Prime Time on a slightly dodgy web connection... "cripes", as Mayor Boris would say, poor you lot!!

Atticus wrote:

I have just watched most of the Brendan Smith / Mairead McGuinness slot of Prime Time on a slightly dodgy web connection... "cripes", as Mayor Boris would say, poor you lot!!

Mark Little was pushing the main point - system 'failure'. 10 farms affected, 450 closed down ... for 'precaution' i.e. they couldn't isolate anything, not the cuts, nor the pork ingredient in other products. They're probably still at sixes and sevens.

Well it looks like I was right about this Pig Panic.

Now the beef has tested positive but no problem no recall no panic.

As they say on Animal Farm: Toxic cow good, toxic sow bad.

But the show goes on and next Sunday we will see a march from pig farmers looking for a handout.I would not give them a penny.

Then you have Cowen, the less said the better and I am afraid to check out Smith because I would bet my bottom dollar that he too is a genius. Audi, if you have a clip of him link it and I will risk it.

I saw a lad called Read on TV and I think it said he was either a shadow minister or a pig farmer. Is that possible.

I will try to follow the saga of the pigs.

...ie I mean the quality of political leadership - or lack of ...

Methinks Smith's majority will be somewhat dented next time round ... there are economic consequences already in his constituency ....

this is of course a general "systems" website and will be back to you when I dig out that wonderful EU quotation from back in the BSE crisis .....

This is the prime time site but it isn't up there yet. You can check back there later. If anyone else knows a link with it I'm sure they'd tell you it ...

http://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/

Atticus wrote:

this is of course a general "systems" website and will be back to you when I dig out that wonderful EU quotation from back in the BSE crisis .....

Yep, doesn't the current level of traceability date back to that crisis ? Looks like we'll have to overhaul the pig system now too but will we. Please dig out that quote by all means.

Atticus wrote:

I have just watched most of the Brendan Smith / Mairead McGuinness slot of Prime Time on a slightly dodgy web connection... "cripes", as Mayor Boris would say, poor you lot!!

Smith insists that product could have been released from Sunday night. Strange that the rest of the population, including Sargent, still didn't know it up to last night.

A drama is being turned into a crisis.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Atticus wrote:

I have just watched most of the Brendan Smith / Mairead McGuinness slot of Prime Time on a slightly dodgy web connection... "cripes", as Mayor Boris would say, poor you lot!!

Mark Little was pushing the main point - system 'failure'. 10 farms affected, 450 closed down ... for 'precaution' i.e. they couldn't isolate anything, not the cuts, nor the pork ingredient in other products. They're probably still at sixes and sevens.

Precisely Auditor * 9.

The BSE crisis really repays re-reading, I promise you. We never learn.

But I was disgusted at the display tonight and I fully understand the anger of (non-family!!) people I have spoken to in Ireland tonight.

The cause seems to be used engine oil going into animal feed. It was exactly the same thing in Belgium.

The Millstream Plant was licensed as a Waste Disposal facility and supplied animal feed. Trevor Sargent described that as a "low risk" operation that didn't warrant inspection more than once a year. Perhaps because they used the magic word "recycling"???

Sargent looked baffled last night on Questions & Answers - sorry that's a baseless thing to say, maybe he wasn't / isn't.