ANGER!!!!!

I'm probably going to be slammed by someone as a sexist but it seems to be men who are losing it, not women. This is dangerous and needs to be nipped in the bud. I am hearing a lot of talk of rough justice (particularly in the cases of domestic violence I mentioned). The talk has been more than just talk. Vans, gags and ditches have come up more than once. These are very ordinary decent people talking like this and they are at the end of their tether due to lack of police interest.

I think society has entirely failed men and I have commented on this on other threads. It is a funny situation given that the vast majority of our legislature, executive and judiciary are males. However, if you are a male you are far more likely to be unemployed, in jail or kill yourself than women are. Something is amiss in society when you consider that.

I think I've just heard about a suicide in my town just now. Male, mid thirties. Attempted anyway at least - guy's in a coma according to one rumour - took an overdose. Hopefully it's an exaggeration as the man has a couple of children from a busted relationship.

I agree with you. However it doesn't make me feel any safer knowing that society is to blame. Here's one for the pot - what if the majority of our legislature, executive and judiciary were females? Would things be any different?

No, I don't believe our society would be any better. However, correctly or incorrectly, I do believe that if these problems were so severe in the female community and if the legislature was full of females they would be dealt with alot better. I'm not a sociologist but it does appear to me that there is far less of a "male community" in comparison to a "female community". There are of course many historical reasons for this but nonetheless it appears to be the contemporary situation.

You're probably right there.

Auditor #9 wrote:

I think I've just heard about a suicide in my town just now. Male, mid thirties. Attempted anyway at least - guy's in a coma according to one rumour - took an overdose. Hopefully it's an exaggeration as the man has a couple of children from a busted relationship.

Do you remember this thread ?

https://machinenation.forumakers.com/language-culture-f9/women-work-harder-men-die-younger-t846.htm?highlight=women

There was one called "What men have to put up with" - in the Refuge I think.

I hope he is all right, the guy in your town. They say that its an angry thing in men, but sometimes they have a lot to be angry about.

Quote :

They say that its an angry thing in men, but sometimes they have a lot to be angry about.

Very well said, cactus. I despair for young men in these times.

johnfás wrote:

I think society has entirely failed men and I have commented on this on other threads. It is a funny situation given that the vast majority of our legislature, executive and judiciary are males. However, if you are a male you are far more likely to be unemployed, in jail or kill yourself than women are. Something is amiss in society when you consider that.

It's a bit of a catch-all to put those issues down to society surely? Anyway it is an interesting point. What is the root of that percieved failure do you think?

cactus flower wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

I think I've just heard about a suicide in my town just now. Male, mid thirties. Attempted anyway at least - guy's in a coma according to one rumour - took an overdose. Hopefully it's an exaggeration as the man has a couple of children from a busted relationship.

Do you remember this thread ?

https://machinenation.forumakers.com/language-culture-f9/women-work-harder-men-die-younger-t846.htm?highlight=women

There was one called "What men have to put up with" - in the Refuge I think.

I hope he is all right, the guy in your town. They say that its an angry thing in men, but sometimes they have a lot to be angry about.

A guy in my year in school killed himself just before Christmas as did another friend of a friend, absolutely tragic - both only 22. The latter was in her final year in college and just couldn't cope with the exam stress... well obviously there were other issues as well... but really really tragic, a 600 point type student as well - some people put themselves under an awful lot of pressure. Two friends parents died over Christmas too... bit of a tragic period really.

unaligned wrote:

johnfás wrote:

I think society has entirely failed men and I have commented on this on other threads. It is a funny situation given that the vast majority of our legislature, executive and judiciary are males. However, if you are a male you are far more likely to be unemployed, in jail or kill yourself than women are. Something is amiss in society when you consider that.

It's a bit of a catch-all to put those issues down to society surely? Anyway it is an interesting point. What is the root of that percieved failure do you think?

Don't have a clue to be honest. I've seen people say that men are struggling to find a role in a society where women are increasingly joining or taking over roles which were traditionally performed by men. I don't know enough about it to really judge whether or not that is the case. However, one thing I would highlight as an issue is the level of constructive groups which men can involve themselves in - they are limited. I know an awful lot of people whose mums are in so many groups from flower arranging and knitting to keep fit classes and everything in between. There seems alot less on offer for men. The support of friends is hugely important in terms of keeping morale higher. I am lucky in that I attend a Church and churches do offer a huge support network and a range of activities but then again an awful lot of people don't want to be involved in churches... society needs to create a parallel world to all those sort of engaging activities which are provided by communities such as churches. Historical political philosophers had lots to say about that.

floatingingalway wrote:

On the subject of anger, has anyone else noticed a lot of it around lately? I've come across it everywhere. People I know who are normally quite calm individuals are losing it. I've come across two very disturbing stories of domestic violence which have left me reeling. These are people I know. I got accosted myself on St. Stephen's night by someone who I vaguely know. The list goes on....

Well no harm learning how to fight if your future is in Australia mate!

johnfás wrote:

No, I don't believe our society would be any better. However, correctly or incorrectly, I do believe that if these problems were so severe in the female community and if the legislature was full of females they would be dealt with alot better. I'm not a sociologist but it does appear to me that there is far less of a "male community" in comparison to a "female community". There are of course many historical reasons for this but nonetheless it appears to be the contemporary situation.

Well I imagine that's for many of the same reasons that there is a "black community" but not a "white community", a "homosexual community" but no "heterosexual community" etc...

I think that people accept violence all too readily. This is not helping the situation. If people expect something to happen, it probably will.
For example, people expect violence on the streets at the weekend and it happens. This is accepted as normal. When people hear about domestic violence, they, more often than not, do nothing about it. The blame is shifted from the perpetrators to alcohol, society, lack of focus or whatever you're having yourself.

I am getting weary of hearing the reasons why. Something needs to be done urgently. I mean this sincerely. When friends of mine are talking about taking the law into their own hands to sort out the unacceptable behaviour of some of the males in our society, it makes me very worried.

johnfás wrote:

Don't have a clue to be honest. I've seen people say that men are struggling to find a role in a society where women are increasingly joining or taking over roles which were traditionally performed by men. I don't know enough about it to really judge whether or not that is the case. However, one thing I would highlight as an issue is the level of constructive groups which men can involve themselves in - they are limited. I know an awful lot of people whose mums are in so many groups from flower arranging and knitting to keep fit classes and everything in between. There seems alot less on offer for men. The support of friends is hugely important in terms of keeping morale higher. I am lucky in that I attend a Church and churches do offer a huge support network and a range of activities but then again an awful lot of people don't want to be involved in churches... society needs to create a parallel world to all those sort of engaging activities which are provided by communities such as churches. Historical political philosophers had lots to say about that.

Good points. My parents had my brothers and I when they were quite young. When we finally flew the nest they found themselves in the unusual position of being relatively young but also stripped of a role that they had performed for over twenty years. My mother's response to this crisis was to go back to college while my father was (very unexpectedly) distraught and, for whatever reason, did not see that as an option. It took a lot of time and prodding before he considered the possibility of doing something for himself instead of doing it for one of us.

I think Irish men are incredibly bad at the concept of 're-invention'. It's one of the few things that American society does rather well in my opinion. As circumstances change, so the individual should try new paths to cope with that new reality. Women appear to be more suited to this mindset whereas a lot of Irish men seem to associate change with negativity and loss.

floatingingalway wrote:

I think that people accept violence all too readily. This is not helping the situation. If people expect something to happen, it probably will.
For example, people expect violence on the streets at the weekend and it happens. This is accepted as normal. When people hear about domestic violence, they, more often than not, do nothing about it. The blame is shifted from the perpetrators to alcohol, society, lack of focus or whatever you're having yourself.

I am getting weary of hearing the reasons why. Something needs to be done urgently. I mean this sincerely. When friends of mine are talking about taking the law into their own hands to sort out the unacceptable behaviour of some of the males in our society, it makes me very worried.

Its mainly due to lack of policing, isn't it?

I detest the blaming of alcohol for people's actions.

As do I jf. I find the closer you are the society's problems the harder it is to have sympathy. As I've probably mentioned before I'm living beside some very rough council flats in the North Dublin inner city this year. A few weeks ago one of the other students (it's student accommodation) parked his car outside and all the windows were smashed in. We can't walk home without having things thrown at us. Last night the alarm went off because the kids were trying to kick the front door in. You hear all the excuses but after a while you don't care about the poor little kids and their problems; they're not doing this because they're poor or because their parents drink, they're doing it because they're fucking scumbags.

It's a failure of logic on my part because to deny the role played by social circumstances in these matters is simply foolish. But I think you will find that victims and witnesses of social problems have little time for such excuses. As the problems increase, sympathy will surely decrease. What happens then?

Excuse me if I'm rambling, I'm very tired and am thinking with my fingers at this point. Or something.

floatingingalway wrote:

I'm probably going to be slammed by someone as a sexist but it seems to be men who are losing it, not women. .

I don't think you are being sexist. There's nothing sexist about observing a phenomenon as it seems to you. You're not going to make some supremacist argument consequent on it, are you? The whole issue of violence and suicide needs to be analysed better from a gender perspective if remeies are to be effective. Men and women know equally the emotions of rage and frustration or whatever precedes 'losing it', but their behaviours differ - stastically, not absolutely.

Anger and depression seem to me to be two sides of the same coin. Anger turned inwards makes people sad they say, and depression kills more people here every year than die in road accidents. If asked most of us would 'gender' suicide as male and 'age' it as young whereas we think of depression as female and middle-aged. Perhaps both are failures to handle frustration, conflict and anger, no doubt for many exacerbated by a change in brain chemistry at some point which can be helped by prescribed drugs to some degree or hammered by self-medication on other drugs.

As to 'blaming society'? Well, in a society where a couple of forms of intelligence are valued ( numerical, verbal) and others like intrapersonal or interpersonal are not -certainly not in terms of a place in the curriculum, or points at Leaving Cert- there is plenty to blame. They say a liberal is someone who hasn't been mugged yet, so I pass no judgement on those who are sick an tired of the violence and disorder.

As for the crisis in masculinities? Maybe another thread......

Don't get me wrong I'm still a liberal. It's just on a personal level, I'm sick of it.

cactus flower wrote:

floatingingalway wrote:

I think that people accept violence all too readily. This is not helping the situation. If people expect something to happen, it probably will.
For example, people expect violence on the streets at the weekend and it happens. This is accepted as normal. When people hear about domestic violence, they, more often than not, do nothing about it. The blame is shifted from the perpetrators to alcohol, society, lack of focus or whatever you're having yourself.

I am getting weary of hearing the reasons why. Something needs to be done urgently. I mean this sincerely. When friends of mine are talking about taking the law into their own hands to sort out the unacceptable behaviour of some of the males in our society, it makes me very worried.

Its mainly due to lack of policing, isn't it?

I think you're right there. If the police are found to be lacking, the people will take the law into their own hands purely for self-protection.

evercloserunion wrote:

Don't get me wrong I'm still a liberal. It's just on a personal level, I'm sick of it.

Never doubted it ECU, pretty sick of it myself and wonder what would happen if someone set fire to my dog (worst thing I am prepared to contemplate)? I lived in a violent and racially divided country in the 90's though and hung on to a sense of proportion through some scary events. But I don't want it tested again.

A sense of proportion is a rare thing and one of the most important qualities that anyone can possess.

It is indeed. It's fragile as well though.

johnfás wrote:

A sense of proportion is a rare thing and one of the most important qualities that anyone can possess.

And it goes with a sense of humour. In all but the most tragic events it keeps one sane.