Interesting piece of propaganda in the Times today: Government to ensure gardaí can search planes at Shannon - The Irish Times - Sat, Nov 01, 2008

See my reply to it here: REPLY

The Greens must be seeing the writing on the wall. This was coming regardless as to the existence of the Greens. There was always going to be a reckoning over international torture and kidnap. The crime has already been committed and it's time to investigate it. The time for preventing these crimes has long since passed as the crimes have happened.

I'm expecting a statement from Shannon this evening and will post it when it's been drafted.

Hermes would you print a copy of your reply here - Im banned from p.ie for eternity (my proudest boast) so can't read it

This is significant news. Anything to do with the US elections do you think?
Dollar hegemony next to go?

Here you go:

Originally Posted by He3



Government to ensure gardaí can search planes at Shannon - The Irish Times - Sat, Nov 01, 2008




Both Obama and McCain have been clear in their condemnation of torture and GTMO. They are way ahead of the Irish government.





Their powers are adequate, and they only need to read this thread to find out why. If they really do not know already.

The ultimate in empty gestures.

All that is needed is a letter from the AG to the Garda Commissioner,
taking the handcuffs off the Shannon Gardai. No stamp required.

.





Right on He3.

This is mindless posturing of the highest order. It's a meaningless
gesture aimed at diminishing the culpability of our government for
their criminal actions.

The Gardaí and APO's are already empowered to board any plane they wish
and to search it. They don't even require a warrant or indeed, a
reasonable suspicion to do so. The only thing that can be concluded
here is as you say, that an order from on high had been passed to the
Gardaí and friends, not to touch suspicious aircraft. This question was
raised last year and no reasonable answer was forthcoming: Report of Oireachtas Committee Debate on Extraordinary Rendition - Indymedia Ireland

Here's section 18 of the Air Transport and Navigation Act. It couldn't be clearer:


Quote:

18. —(1) An authorised person shall, for the purpose of enabling the Minister to— ( a ) ascertain whether any security or safety standards specified by him in relation to an aerodrome or an aircraft are being, or have been, complied with, and ( b ) determine whether to give a direction under this Part to any person, and ( c ) ascertain whether any direction under this Part is being, or has been, complied with, have power to do all or any of the following things:— (i) enter any aerodrome and inspect the aerodrome and any apparatus, equipment or other thing therein; (ii) enter any aircraft at any aerodrome and inspect any apparatus, equipment or other thing therein or thereon; (iii) require the operator of the aerodrome or, as the case may be, of the aircraft concerned to furnish within such time as the authorised person may specify such information as he considers necessary for the purposes of the inspection referred to in paragraph (i) or (ii); (iv) restrict the operation of the aerodrome, or detain any aircraft, during such time as is required for the exercise of his powers under this section. (2) Any person who— ( a ) obstructs or impedes an authorised person in the exercise of his powers under this section, or ( b ) assaults an authorised person in the exercise of his powers under this section, or ( c ) refuses, or without reasonable excuse fails, to furnish to an authorised person information which he requires for the exercise of his powers, or ( d ) makes a statement to an authorised person which he knows to be false in a material particular, or ( e ) recklessly makes a statement to an authorised person which is false in a material particular, shall be guilty of an offence. (3) In this section "authorised person" means— ( a ) any person, or any person belonging to a class of persons, authorised in writing by the Minister to exercise the powers conferred on an authorised person under this section, or ( b ) a member of the Garda Síochána. (4) The powers conferred by this section on an authorised person to enter an aircraft shall not be exercisable by such authorised person in relation to any aircraft which is a State aircraft.

The aircraft that we know are involved in Extraordinary Rendition
(kidnap and torture), must be held by the Gardaí and friends. They are
evidence of a crime and must be held and preserved as evidence. So too
must those onboard these aircraft be arrested and held as suspects.

cactus flower wrote:

This is significant news. Anything to do with the US elections do you think?
Dollar hegemony next to go?

Has loads to do with the elections. Both candidates have voiced their disgust about torture. It's reasonable to believe that an investigation will begin soon. This announcement, in my opinion, is an attempt to shut up activists. We'll be told that we've got what we wanted and that we are no longer relevant. This is when we are most relevant and we won't be shutting up anytime soon. We want accountability and we want an investigation into the State's complicity in these crimes.

Might this be the end of Guantanamo and all the other torture centres set up around the world since 9/11?

Aragon wrote:

Might this be the end of Guantanamo and all the other torture centres set up around the world since 9/11?

Not by a long shot I'm afraid. Now begins the period of arse covering and misdirecting the blame.

Rendition has been a part of US life for decades and is not about to end anytime soon. The US supreme Court has sanctioned Rendition.

Obama has already said that he'll not close Guantanamo. Though the Supreme Court may decide otherwise.

I don't want to appear to be too negative or cynical. We are entering a period of questioning and it'll be on a massive scale. If we play our cards right we can make a substantive difference. For us it will include holding our government accountable for their knowingly having been complicit in crimes against humanity. And also holding our justice system to account for their crimes (ongoing) where they muddied the waters by persecuting activists and igoring international and national law. When we get through this, and other countries do the same, we shall run for the light at the end of the tunnel. Lot's of "ifs" in there I know. It's more a matter of time than of "ifs."

Tis time to kick bubblegum and chew ass!

I'm still waiting on a joint statement from the plane watchers in Shannon. In the meantime here's what Ed Horgan has to say:

Ed Horgan wrote:

The Government's decision to stop facilitating torture, if it eventually amounts to a decision, or any real actions, is to be
welcomed, very cautiously. Stopping complicity in torture is like a father who decides to stop abusing his child, because he has been
exposed. Torture is comparable with incestuous child abuse. Complicity with torture, and I accuse the Irish Government of complicity with
torture at Shannon airport since 2002, is the equivalent of a mother who knows her partner is abusing their children, and not only refuses to intervene, but assists in the process.

The announcement by the Irish Government is likely to be a concession to the Green Party to encourage the Greens not to pull the plug on the Government over the ill-considered budget, that targetted the disadvantaged in order to protect the wealth of the privilidged. The
Green Party have been in Government almost 18 months with Fianna Fail during which time the US torture rendition programme has continued, and CIA and US military aircraft have continued to be refuelled at Shannon airport. Irish complicity with torture, and crimes against humanity, has continued over this 18-month period. The number of prisoners tortured during this 18-month period, by this US-driven torture programme, in Guantanamo and in other prisons worldwide, probably runs to several thousand. The number of prisoners tortured since October 2001 could be as high as 20,000. Hundreds of prisoners may have died, or been executed during this period, especially in Afghanistan.

Now we are told: “The GOVERNMENT will approach the incoming US administration on the issue of extraordinary rendition and will also act to ensure that Garda and airport authorities have powers of search and inspection of aircraft.” This amounts to a belated admission by the Irish Government that facilitating torture rendition at Shannon airport has occurred and is wrong. However, the Irish Government, including the Green Party, has also decided to continue its policy and practices of complicity with and facilitation of torture rendition at Shannon airport up until some unspecified time in 2009. This amounts to a positive decision by the Irish Government to continue facilitating the US torture rendition programme for several months into the future, and in particular for the months of November and December 2008, while George W Bush remains in office as US President.

There is no lawful justification for such a decision. The only likely reasons for the Irish Government continuing to breach international law, The United Nations Convention Against Torture, and Irish law, The Criminal Justice (The United Nations Convention Against Torture), Act,
2000, is that a formal or informal bilateral agreement was reached between the US President and the Irish Taoiseach, probably on or about 16th March 2002, to allow US military and CIA aircraft be refuelled at Shannon without any controls or conditions. The Green Party have now decided to take no action to prevent Shannon airport and Irish territory being used to facilitate torture of prisoners between 1st November 2007 and some as yet unspecified date in 2009.

I welcome the fact that at some unspecified time in the future, the Irish Government will no longer allow Shannon airport to be used to
facilitate torture.

In the meantime, I, Edward Horgan, have been summoned to appear before Judge Joseph Mangan, at Ennis District Court, on 13th November 2008, to answer the charge that I did obstruct /impede an Authorised Officer at Shannon airport on 18th June 2008.

I went to Shannon airport on that date, because I received information from contacts in the United States, that an aircraft, known to be
associated with the CIA torture rendition programme, and that has been to Guantanamo shortly before that, was due at Shannon. This aircraft, a Gulfstream executive jet registration number N54PA arrived as scheduled at about 8am. I gave the Gardai and the airport police the information that this aircraft was associated with the CIA torture programme, and asked them to have the aircraft searched. They refused to do so.

I was attempting to obstruct/impede the acts of complicity in the crimes of torture, and the crimes against humanity being committed by
US forces and the CIA in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

See you in Court

Very good statement.

Hermes, is the Nov 13th day a hearing date, or is the case just for mention to fix a hearing date for Ed Horgan?

Hermes wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

This is significant news. Anything to do with the US elections do you think?
Dollar hegemony next to go?

Has loads to do with the elections. Both candidates have voiced their disgust about torture. It's reasonable to believe that an investigation will begin soon. This announcement, in my opinion, is an attempt to shut up activists. We'll be told that we've got what we wanted and that we are no longer relevant. This is when we are most relevant and we won't be shutting up anytime soon. We want accountability and we want an investigation into the State's complicity in these crimes.

Is it too much to hope that such an investigation will take place in the US ? Who, if anyone, has the powers to call governments outside the US to account on this ? Is it down to the citizens of the individual countries?

cactus flower wrote:

Hermes wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

This is significant news. Anything to do with the US elections do you think?
Dollar hegemony next to go?

Has loads to do with the elections. Both candidates have voiced their disgust about torture. It's reasonable to believe that an investigation will begin soon. This announcement, in my opinion, is an attempt to shut up activists. We'll be told that we've got what we wanted and that we are no longer relevant. This is when we are most relevant and we won't be shutting up anytime soon. We want accountability and we want an investigation into the State's complicity in these crimes.

Is it too much to hope that such an investigation will take place in the US ? Who, if anyone, has the powers to call governments outside the US to account on this ? Is it down to the citizens of the individual countries?

I think its the District Attorneys who would be responsible for filing any case - one former DA is trying to mount a case against Bush - he's got an Itlian name which I can't remember at the moment.

Hmm, the glass is always half empty with you people. I prefer 'too-little-too-late' to 'not-at-all'.

905 wrote:

Hmm, the glass is always half empty with you people. I prefer 'too-little-too-late' to 'not-at-all'.

I'm not sure if it applies to you, 905, but I would be interested to hear from some of the people who said this couldn't and shouldn't be done.

Is anyone going to oppose it? I think "better late than never" would be my feeling, but also that people who have committed any offence should be made accountable.

cactus flower wrote:

905 wrote:

Hmm, the glass is always half empty with you people. I prefer 'too-little-too-late' to 'not-at-all'.

I'm not sure if it applies to you, 905, but I would be interested to hear from some of the people who said this couldn't and shouldn't be done.

The cheek. I think you'll find few people, either side of the Atlantic, who opposes this.

Incidentally, I'd like to apologise for my hypocrisy earlier. I took the title literally and assumed that guards wouldn't be allowed bring handcuffs on board when doing the neccessary searches, or some such madness. I thought the fact that they hopefully would soon be conducting such searches was far more important than some trivial handcuff clause, but that good 'ole Hermes was seeing the worst of the situation. Instead it was me was who saw the glass as half empty.

A brief comment on 'better late than never'

The programme for government was signed in mid-2007. One and a half years later we get, not implementation, but a committee. And meanwhile it has become clear that what is stopping law enforcement in Shannon, under existing laws against torture, is a diktat from Dublin. That could be fixed at the stroke of a pen tonight.

But it won't be.

Ed Horgan and his like are the ones facing Court. Same as it ever was.

I don't see any 'better late than never' here.

Helium Three wrote:

A brief comment on 'better late than never'

The programme for government was signed in mid-2007. One and a half years later we get, not implementation, but a committee. And meanwhile it has become clear that what is stopping law enforcement in Shannon, under existing laws against torture, is a diktat from Dublin. That could be fixed at the stroke of a pen tonight.

But it won't be.

Ed Horgan and his like are the ones facing Court. Same as it ever was.

I don't see any 'better late than never' here.

You're right: I had missed this.

"Mr Cuffe said that while the programme for government contained a clear commitment on extraordinary rendition, practical impediments had remained up to now. The Green Party had consistently argued that ordinary citizens could not in practice be expected to have enough prima facie evidence to prompt gardaí to board US planes.

"This view has been echoed by various human rights bodies including the Irish Human Rights Commission. The Green Party had difficulty with the assertion that private property rights were blocked by random aeroplane checks. The commitment to examine the law in this area will be of great benefit," said Mr Cuffe.

He added that when challenged on Ireland's involvement in renditions the Government had insisted that strong personal assurances from US leaders were acceptable and it was also argued that no European country was searching transiting aircraft to and from friendly states.

A new Cabinet committee which will examine the sufficiency of the law and interact with the Garda on this issue was a big step forward in ensuring that Ireland did not facilitate extraordinary rendition, he said.

The programme for government contains this commitment on extraordinary rendition: "The Government will prioritise effective enforcement of a) Criminal Justice (United Nations Convention Against Torture) Act, 2000 b) The Geneva Conventions Acts 1962-1998. To that end the Government will encourage and support An Garda Síochána in the investigation and enforcement of these statutes . . . by making resources available for specialised training . . . to ensure effective protection for the dignity of all persons within or passing through the State.

"We will ensure that all relevant legal instruments are used so that the practice of extraordinary rendition does not occur in this State."

I should have known that anything to do with the Green's in government would have been without substance.