Economics is Dead.

[quote="Zhou_Enlai"]There were numerous checks and balances:
1. Democratically elected governements. Most of these in the Anglo-Saxon model were economically neo-liberal
2. Parliamentary economic and finance committees in every western democracy. See above
3. An EU Commissioner for Markets. What's his job, then?
4. EU think tanks. ? A check? A balance?
5. University educated economists Many of whom are Friedmanists
6. Free press The Sindo? "Ah, sure we're great. Richest country in the world. Viva Bertie!!?
7. Civil servants in Departments of Finance in every democracy. Who advise ministers
8. Central banks in many democracies. Interest rates determined elsewhere
9. Finanacial Regulators in many democracies Asleep on the job. Should be fired.
10. International Auditing and Financial standards approved by professional bodies, industry and Governments Beancounters
11. Laws specifying the fiduciary obligations of Directors. Ireland has poor law enforcement
12. Laws specifying the legal capacity of corporations. See above
13. An independent Judiciary. Yep, independent indeed.
14. Accountant and lawyers with personal liability advising the financial industry. Little accountability
15. Armies of actuaries employed by banks and insurance companies providing performance bonds and debt insurance. To tell their employers what they want to hear.

No real accountability anywhere!!!!

great news!!!!

Paul Krugman (my mentor when studying economics) has been awarded the 2008 Nobel Prize in Economics.

both on p.ie and here i think i've mentioned that he was overdue the award.

Congrats Paul K!

zakalwe wrote:

great news!!!!

Paul Krugman (my mentor when studying economics) has been awarded the 2008 Nobel Prize in Economics.

both on p.ie and here i think i've mentioned that he was overdue the award.

Congrats Paul K!

I know him from his writing in the New York Times. Here is what he was awarded the Nobel Prize for:
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/laureates/2008/press.html.

zakalwe wrote:

great news!!!!

Paul Krugman (my mentor when studying economics) has been awarded the 2008 Nobel Prize in Economics.

both on p.ie and here i think i've mentioned that he was overdue the award.

Congrats Paul K!

Where did you study economics Z?

undergrad ucd,

part of my postgrad in MIT. did international trade under PK.

forgotten most of it as left academics about 10 years ago.

I'm very jealous - I'd love to have been mentored by a Nobel Prize winner. Good for you.

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

I'm very jealous - I'd love to have been mentored by a Nobel Prize winner. Good for you.

alas, i was either asleep or doodling for his classes as it was my weakest subject!

i was in frequent correspondence about my thesis re international development.

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

I didn't intend to come across as aggressive rocky. I know I look a bit smug in my picture but that isn't the way I am .

I'm not up on who has cleaned up in these bad times and I think the analysis has yet to be completed. I woul dhave thought the wealthy Chinese would have been laughing their cash-filled-safes off but seemingly not. What must be noted is that these systemic failures developed and got out of control in western democracies with all the in built checks and balances that one could wish for. Why is that? Because of the rich and the powerful or because of the nature of human activity in the age of technology. I suggest it is the latter. I suggest that if it were simply the former then the educated middle classes would have stopped it!

Nae probs Zhou - everybody has their viewpoints and ideas. All ideas, even from commie pinkos , are probably worth exloring these days. Sometimes ideas and viewpoints that are antithetical to one's own position might provide a valuable and different way of approaching our modern day problems.

I worked in the belly of the beast; albeit in a minor capacity. No rougue trader, me. However, I also started my career on Wall Street just after hyper-inflation and the beginning of the Reagan era. Many concerns that bankers had way back then have come to fruition. The very nature of the environment tends to breed a certain competition and excess in the way business is done. The entire derivatives market along with the CDS market has been the pinacle of financial engineering and excess, but the underlying excess was and is apparent in banking. I find this especially true in the modern era where next quarter's profits are more important than long term viability of the entire economy when it comes to bankers. gl

zakalwe wrote:

great news!!!!

Paul Krugman (my mentor when studying economics) has been awarded the 2008 Nobel Prize in Economics.

both on p.ie and here i think i've mentioned that he was overdue the award.

Congrats Paul K!

I never came across him before posting a link to a discussion by Princeton economists on the current crisis. He strikes me as genuinely concerned about the crisis and the impact it will have on ordinary citizens. Obama would sky rocket in my estimation if he appointed Krugman to the Fed or Treasury.

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

zakalwe wrote:

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

zakalwe wrote:

first off: in a recession (never mind depression) all bets should be off re kyoto.

....its easy to be an environmentalist on a full belly but if, and when, irish people have to tighten their belts, turn off the heating in the winter etc out of economic necessity, they'll be mightly peeved if the irish govt were throwing taxpayers money (in deficit times) down the drain achieving nothing effective.

George Soros mentions this in the PBS piece that rockyraccoon linked on the "Economics is Dead" thread. Soros reckons that the USA is dead as the economic engine of the world. He believes that fighting global warmng can be the new economic engine of the world if Governments act together. He reckons it will be painful to implement but "at least we won't cook". George and I are in agreement.

how can reducing economic output be a "new economic engine of the world"?

It's pretty much like having a war without all the killing and destruction. Mass mobilisation directed towards the creation of a new technologies and huge projects in a fight for one's life. It requires huge amounts of engineering, production, administration, innovation, regulation, infrastructure creation and world salvation. Get thee to the Economic Church of Global Refrigeration!

Does anyone else salivate at ideas like this ? I whipped this from the Environmental Targets thread because it's obviously relevant for economics. As rockyracoon said too, the world can feed, clothe and house everyone but somehow we choose not to do it ... Yet we're well in the business of making organised efforts to reduce CO2 ... this flies in the face of free marketeering so shouldn't we rethink how the free market fits in, how it's useful and where and why and start looking at alternative solutions to current problems - free market, command economy, globalism or whatever? Maybe it would be hodge-podge but maybe that's what's required?

One of the things could be a global currency but not a gold standard - frig that. On the other thread I mentioned a CO2 ceiling which could be used to restrict the money supply per country. I put a youtube video there called the Globo by your man themodernmystic - it's more of a thought than a substantial argument but he refers to the 'Globo' as a potential world currency. I think the CO2 ceiling sees the beginnings of this phenomenon. Inflation could also be another ceiling.

Yes, what I'm saying is that money gets printed but the quantity of it is restricted by inflation levels, CO2 levels and perhaps some other measures - water usage? Otherwise money can simply be printed. A local currency like the Euro will equate to X Globos but as the Eurozone pumps out more CO2 or there is internal inflation then the Euro is valued at X-Y Globos hence a reduction in buying power by the citizens who might now feel compelled to lobby their politicians to adjust policy in favour of more Globos. Something like that. How would we measure these things like CO2 though?

Reading some very interesting articles in a magazine called New View - (link). There are various articles about the nature of money and finance, including one by the CEO of Triodos, an ethical bank that appears not to be affected by the credit crisis, mainly because they only loan to ethical projects from 65% of funds on deposit - rest is kept in reserve to maintain liquidity.

The main article is about the function of money - which is a contradictory thing because money is actually non-material - it only represents different human function depending on what it is being used for at any one time (loaned, borrowed, purchasing etc).

Unfortunately these articles are not online, but when I've read
and understood them, I'll try to post a summary here.

I'm also very interested in the economic ideas of a guy Called Christopher Houghton Budd, (link).


BTW - All these ideas are based around insights given by Rudolf Steiner in the early part of the 20th century. After the devestation of WW1, he saw a new way of ordering society which he called threefolding. A lot to go into, but if anyone's intersted I can try to expand more.

yehbut_nobut wrote:

BTW - All these ideas are based around insights given by Rudolf Steiner in the early part of the 20th century. After the devestation of WW1, he saw a new way of ordering society which he called threefolding. A lot to go into, but if anyone's intersted I can try to expand more.

I don't know about anyone else but I've a good appetite for this kind of thing lately so if you feel like expanding expand away (Questions and Answers is on in a half hour though). Another fella, Major Clifford Hugh Douglas also had some interesting ideas after WWI - 'Social Credit' was his topic in his work 'Economic Democracy'.

Auditor #9 wrote:

yehbut_nobut wrote:

BTW - All these ideas are based around insights given by Rudolf Steiner in the early part of the 20th century. After the devestation of WW1, he saw a new way of ordering society which he called threefolding. A lot to go into, but if anyone's intersted I can try to expand more.

I don't know about anyone else but I've a good appetite for this kind of thing lately so if you feel like expanding expand away (Questions and Answers is on in a half hour though). Another fella, Major Clifford Hugh Douglas also had some interesting ideas after WWI - 'Social Credit' was his topic in his work 'Economic Democracy'.

Won't do it justice this evening, but will certainly make a stab at it over the next few days... wiki has a basic but reasonably succinct entry on Social Threefolding - just an intro though, it's not a complete overview. (and I am certainly not an expert, just an interested observer btw).

Will try to the precis/ summarise the articles I mentioned, when I've absorbed them.

Enjoy Q&A!

yehbut_nobut wrote:

Reading some very interesting articles in a magazine called New View - (link). There are various articles about the nature of money and finance, including one by the CEO of Triodos, an ethical bank that appears not to be affected by the credit crisis, mainly because they only loan to ethical projects from 65% of funds on deposit - rest is kept in reserve to maintain liquidity.

The main article is about the function of money - which is a contradictory thing because money is actually non-material - it only represents different human function depending on what it is being used for at any one time (loaned, borrowed, purchasing etc).

Unfortunately these articles are not online, but when I've read
and understood them, I'll try to post a summary here.

I'm also very interested in the economic ideas of a guy Called Christopher Houghton Budd, (link).


BTW - All these ideas are based around insights given by Rudolf Steiner in the early part of the 20th century. After the devestation of WW1, he saw a new way of ordering society which he called threefolding. A lot to go into, but if anyone's intersted I can try to expand more.

Triodos Bank releases its 2008 half-year results

• Credit crisis bypasses Triodos Bank
  
• 8% growth during first six months of 2008
  
• Triodos Bank takes interest in Danish sustainable bank
  

During the first six months of 2008:

• Triodos Bank’s balance sheet grew from EURO 1.9 billion on 31 December 2007 to EURO 2 billion on 30 June 2008 - a growth of 8%.
  
• Assets under management by Triodos Group, consisting of Triodos Bank and Triodos investment funds, grew by 4% to EURO 3.4 billion.
  
• The loan portfolio rose by 12%. All branches of Triodos Bank contributed to this growth.
  
• The net profit of Triodos Bank during this period was EURO 3.7 million compared to EURO 3.6 million during the first six months of 2007.
  
• Triodos Bank took a 5% interest in the Danish sustainable bank Merkur Andelskasse and increased its interest in the American sustainability pioneers New Resource Bank.
  

Developments during the first six months of 2008
The international credit crisis once again highlighted how important the banking sector is to our economy. Triodos Bank is weathering the current credit crisis well. Because Triodos Bank is more concerned with personal relationships than with impersonal and financial transactions, we don’t invest in mortgage portfolios “packed" as investment products. As such, write-offs from these kinds of portfolios couldn’t affect Triodos.
Chairman of the board Peter Blom: “Triodos Bank wants to act as a bridge between savers and investors on the one hand, and sustainable companies and projects that need financing, on the other. Savers and investors know what happens with their money. In this respect, the banking sector has failed badly in recent years. Both customers and the banks themselves have lost sight of what is going on with complex products.”
Offering real financial transparency was one of the reasons why Triodos Bank was formed in 1980 and it is still highly topical today, as recent developments show. Indirectly however, Triodos Bank has been affected by the credit crisis. Competition in the savings market has increased considerably, and the lack of confidence in shares and securities has stifled growth in the volume of Triodos investment funds. Whereas over the first six months of 2007 growth was 3%, this has now fallen by 2%. The total capital of funds under management as at 30 June 2008 was EURO 1.4 billion.
Two investment funds have done exceptionally well during the first six months.

Very interesting. Is this what they call "ethical banking"? It is more than just being choosy about what the clients do. It would be good to read an independent assessment as well. We have a thread on the Credit Unions: they seem to be good operations but in Ireland don't function as full banks. Then there are the Islamic banks - they are meant I think to take a share in the enterprise instead of charging interest. Adam Smith said that the rates of interest were highest in Islamic countries, because interest was not permitted If these "alternative" banks operate alongside mainstream banking though they can't avoid being sucked into the mixer.