Nationalisation Watch / Govt. rethinking 3.5 billion bailout for the banks?

cactus flower wrote:

Zhou said

Quote :

The main aspect to staying afloat is to preserve credibility

Well I think that the main aspect to staying afloat is having a boat that isn't holed.

The idea that what is essentially spin, like the Guarantee, can get us out of this I don't believe. Mr. Fitzpatrick thought that creating an appearance that every thing was O.K. was all that mattered.

Its being pointed out that the only people the Minister consulted on the Bill were the Directors of Anglo Irish Bank...

If your boat has a big hole and your bucket is too small then that is the end of it. However, if your bucket is big enough if used properly then you have to show you can use it properly.

The Minister said the Department have been working on the Bill for months in anticipation of this problem. The suggestion that he only consulted with the Directors of Anglo seem utterly spurious.

Michael Creed ...

What this Amendment proposes is that this house reserves the right to act ...

Is it some form of regulatory arm of the Dáil they're proposing ? Does anyone know ? Or care ?

Michael D. Higgins

"This action would generally be supportive but ... you'd think that this is beyond the public understanding but they know well what is happening ..."

Higgins is saying the Media were used to get a false message across on the health of this bank - he sets his sites on the Central Bank's Hurley,

Michael D. giving IBEC absolute waski. Fair play to him.

Draw the poison...

I love this guy, but I think he is so wrong that this is just a case of a rotten clique. Its a rotten clique and a rotten system.

Zhou, that's very apt - where did you read it?

It strikes me more and more of late that the old notion of gold, silver and bronze people (as it was explained to me), is more current than we realise.

(and Michael D is vocalising that quite well now)

There's an underlying understanding that only those who are making the decisions really 'know' what's going on and what it all means. The rest of us are railing against the storm, because really we couldn't possibly get it.

The way in which councillors overturn the recommendations of the EPA and council officials implement the Waste Management Act without deference to their councillors, that 6 thousand people in Greystones can protest against the marina by making submissions (half the electorate at the time) yet it still goes ahead, that upstarts in the Department of Education on the basis of a five minute interview can say that your child doesn't need a reader in his exam because he'll do okay...

Sure what would we know, whoever we are on the lowest rung of whatever ladder??


Michael D is doing the best job yet, lambasting IBEC who as yet have gone uncensured.

Shane Ross has done a good job of explaining how IBEC and the Union leaders are in the pocket of the government.

cactus flower wrote:

Draw the poison...

I love this guy, but I think he is so wrong that this is just a case of a rotten clique. Its a rotten clique and a rotten system.

I do too. I just hope he doesn't have a heart attack.

"IBEC were silent .. "

" ... cliques around town ..."

" ... brazenly telling people their social welfare would be cut, that their public pay would be cut ... "

"When I think about it .. as we celebrated the first Dáil and building up the country ... and all these ordinary people ... the idea that the Governor of a Central Bank wouldn't know what's going on .. he should have understood it ... he shouldn't be there anymore - he should be gone ... well NO ONE in the country wants it to go back to the WAY IT WAS .. these people should be thrown out and a new system put in ... and after all that we'd still have the DEAD WOOD to be cleared out because ... we have brilliant graduates ... "

Lenihan is saying the bank is solvent and loands being repaid..But didn't the bank recently loan out millions to developers to use to service their debts with ????

Lenihan back on:

He says the Loan Books show the bank is solvent - that there is no problem with money being earned to cover money owed...

This is a fundamental question he acknowledges the Opposition are concerned about ..

cactus flower wrote:

Lenihan is saying the bank is solvent and loands being repaid..But didn't the bank recently loan out millions to developers to use to service their debts with ????

Link ?

I think he has considerably more faith in the ODCE than he should. 140 companies successfully prosecuted means nothing in the context of what's going on across the country. They'd tell you that themselves. They're underresourced, can't act unless they get complaints, have no mechanism for ensuring that the millions of documents lodged with CRO are actually correct in what they state...

Ridiculous.

A very detailed analysis of the loan book of Anglo was done by accountants.

The loan book remunerates the deposits at the moment, he says. The bank is solvent. Yes, the Governor of the CB and other officials advised him that the balance of the argument favoured nationalisation, it could be a 'potential systemic risk' - but that risk has not yet materialised.

PWC estimate that as a private concern it would require a 4bn recapitalisation. Because of the doubts expressed he wasn't prepared to go beyond 1.5bn but the reality of the position now under public ownership is that there is exposure it is not to any immediate risk.

Ireland must be seen as a country that honours its debts and obligations. We are dependant on international goodwill, cannot afford to impair our credit to the outside world, therefore no option but to put the seal of full state ownership around the bank.

Voting underway, time for some griddle bread and tay


and just a thought:

He said we don't need to push anymore money into this didn't he - not in the order or billions anyway. Why would we need it ??? The bank should be frozen and pared down in terms of operations, services, staff, etc.

Inspiring stuff from Michael D.. That man should be at the head of an army. He oozes ideals and principles.

It is not primarily a problem of cliques though. Anglo were telling all their contacts to invest in them for the last number of years. Some did and some didn't. It is not a cosy cartel when you are taking the money from themembers of the cliques and throwing your own money in too, cf. Quinn, FitzPatrick and countless memebrs of the anglo staff no doubt.

The Minister mentioned that he was advised that there was a potential that Anglo could cause systemic damage and said it was important to put on the record that the potential of Anglo doing sytemic damage has not materialised. To me this indicates that Anglo can still be cast aside if needs be. Perhaps there are good reasons why he is keeping his strategy close to his chest! He did say though that Ireland could not be seen as a country that allows default on deposits. He said we could not alienate international goodwill. He did well imho, as did others. I am sorry I missed Quinn.

The Bill is passed.

Kate P wrote:

Zhou, that's very apt - where did you read it?

The analysis of the replacement of Justice with Order and the replacment of Judges with the organs of the state is from Jacques Ellul's Technological Society which I continue to labour with.

Are we off to the Seanad next so ? Can they delay the bill there for six months or something ? Could be the first time the Seanad had a use.

This reminds me of a hot balmy night in late May or early June and the Lisbon Treaty ratification being debated in the House of Lords. I missed some work over that but I don't blame myself, yehbut_nobut gave us the link in the first place.

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

Inspiring stuff from Michael D.. That man should be at the head of an army. He oozes ideals and principles.

It is not primarily a problem of cliques though. Anglo were telling all their contacts to invest in them for the last number of years. Some did and some didn't. It is not a cosy cartel when you are taking the money from themembers of the cliques and throwing your own money in too, cf. Quinn, FitzPatrick and countless memebrs of the anglo staff no doubt.

The Bill is passed.

That precisely is what a cosy cartel or clique is: everyone is in on it. It is just like a race horse syndicate; everyone throws their money in. The suggestion was made in the Dail that some of the Director's loans might have been made on behalf of others: in other words, Fitzpatrick might have been doing someone else a favour. What I mean is, he might have thought he was doing a good thing for a friend/s. These people I'm sure did not recognise that they were doing a bad thing.

At the Senate now.

If something like this was being debated in a local authority, members would have declared their interest - shareholding, deposits, loans and so on. I was struck by the fact that only Alan Shatter declared an interest, so far as I heard. Did I miss something. How odd if this is such an important and systemic bank, and we are told so close to the party of Government, but yet no one in the Dail had an Anglo account or shares.

Shane Ross on Ernst and Young "A dark shadow of silence over Irish corporate life which sent a clear message that nobody was going to be allowed to tell the truth about what had happened in Anglo Irish Bank."

Nationalisation has the capacity to be used as cover up - "not necessarily saying this is the plan - I don't know"

Fergal Quinn just said his bit - he said it wasn't a good bill. Talking about Capitalisation and Lending ..

Joe O'Toole is now talking about Company Law - " ... Any director who acts against the interests of that Company is in breach of Common Law ..."

The Seanad is taking no prisoners so far

Feargan Quinn - "In the public interest" wrong - should be run as a profitable bank and then could be sold off in a few years time.

Joe O'Toole - breaches in Company law and obligations of Directors should be pursued.

Dan Boyle up now

Click on link for Seanad debate

http://www.oireachtas.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/livewebcast/Web-Live.htm&CatID=83&m=o

Anyone know what the vote was ?

Boyle : "Seven different policy attempts in America to deal with similar situation ...

.. [by nationalising] we are ridding ourselves of an Irish Corporate Cancer ... 'business as usual' can't go on however ... "

" We need to be able to lend for green energy projects like the New President in the States will do ..."

Quote :

nyone know what the vote was ?

passed ~79 / 67