Nationalisation Watch / Govt. rethinking 3.5 billion bailout for the banks?

Atticus wrote:

hi guys, just remind me again of Sean Quinn's current position in all of this at the moment. What does he own / owe / whatever?

I know this one I think. He borrowed 280 million from his own company to buy anglo shares a while back, presumably at a lot more than 22c. He was given a slap of 3million fine by the regulator.

He's lost all that money now. Or his company has tut tut.


Something like that.

Sean Quinn's position in regard to Anglo is that he now owns nothing. The bank has been nationalised so all its shares have been suspended. He will received compensation in lieu of his shareholder at the level that the Government will stipulate in Statute, which it has yet to do so. It is likely that he will have lost well over a billion euro.

Then again he is a very rich man so I don't imagine his lifestyle will change unduly. He still retains huge business interests.

That 200 million was only part of his investment, Auditor. When Anglo was trading at 6.50 it was reckoned Quinn's shareholding was worth 750 million but its high was over 10 euro so you can probably add another 200 million to that valuation for what it cost him to buy the shares. So he has probably lost in excess of 950 million euro. Add into that his ownership of property and hotels such as the Belfry and various hotel interests in Eastern Europe you would imagine he is much poorer than a year ago. But then again a year ago he had 4 billion. I could live a playboy lifestyle for the rest of my life on 5 million.

From a post by powderfinger on P.ie

Quote :

David Clerkin from the Sunday Business Post last July reports on Quinn's dealings with Anglo.
Mr.Clerkin raises an important question.
"Just days before Quinn moved to convert his CFD position into Anglo
shares he struck a deal,to give Anglo, of all banks,a charge over key
preference shares in the entire Quinn business empire."
Did Anglo lend Quinn the money,estimated at 1.5 bn.,for the 15% stake in Anglo?

johnfás wrote:

That 200 million was only part of his investment, Auditor. When Anglo was trading at 6.50 it was reckoned Quinn's shareholding was worth 750 million but its high was over 10 euro so you can probably add another 200 million to that valuation for what it cost him to buy the shares. So he has probably lost in excess of 950 million euro.

A billion ... jaysus. Yeah the report in the Irish Times says he had a 15% stake in Anglo ..
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2008/1025/1224838828122.html

Could that have been a billion ??? Anglo was worth about half a billion there a couple of months ago - coc posted a screen print of the market cap. Anglo was worth a lot more back in the day of the .... Celtic Tiger.

Remember that ?

Just catching up with this story over the last half hour.

Shoot, a billion eh?. The Quinn family will always be okay of course, but nobody round my part of the world would ever say a word against him - the man has given jobs, jobs, jobs.

yehbut_nobut wrote:

From a post by powderfinger on P.ie

Quote :

David Clerkin from the Sunday Business Post last July reports on Quinn's dealings with Anglo.
Mr.Clerkin raises an important question.
"Just days before Quinn moved to convert his CFD position into Anglo
shares he struck a deal,to give Anglo, of all banks,a charge over key
preference shares in the entire Quinn business empire."
Did Anglo lend Quinn the money,estimated at 1.5 bn.,for the 15% stake in Anglo?

Prime Time on it tonight - haven't watched it myself yet

# David Murphy, Business Correspondent, reports that the Government made the announcement at a news conference tonight

# Oonagh Smyth reports on the background to the Government's plan to take control of Anglo Irish Bank

# Richard Bruton, Fine Gael Finance Spokesperson, and Shane Ross, Independent Senator, discuss the implications of the nationalisation

Cheers for the links, Audi. Och, no sleep tonight, so much to catch up on.

Quote from the Pin, looking at a report in tomorrow's (today's) FT - "doomer porn"

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17364

You think Quinn might be an honest skin Atticus ? The Pin says he still has 57 million left.

Ronald Binge posted a charming SBP article on Sean Fitzpatrick above if you have the time.

Sean Quinn ? He has about 2.5 Billion left for goodness sake. Last year he was at 4 Bill.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Perpetual Preference Shares ?? WTF ? You can never cash them in or you get money for life ?

Will there be lots of shareholders looking for their money back tomorrow ?

The Minister has said that no compensation will be paid to any shareholder who has borrowings from the bank until those borrowings are repaid and this would be regardless of what value, if any, the assessor decides to place on the bank shares.

As I understand it, the “preferred” share is only really of any more value than an ordinary share in the event of a bankruptcy where there is some value left after all other debts have been paid, in which case they have first call on any monies available.

Ok, preferred shares are a bit more protected.

Lenihan, along with the rest of us, is getting plenty of banking and other financial experience in his first year in the job anyhow.

McWilliams talking about Anglo being made a 'bad bank' . Effectively a financial skip for all the other banks to throw their bad loans into.

I'm going to move your post to the other Nationalisation thread EVM - ok ?

I heard McWilliams alright and it's an interesting thing. We need a pitcher of a skip for this now and maybe a pitcher on the portal too eh ?

He is not alone

http://money.uk.msn.com/investing/articles/morecommentary/article.aspx?cp-documentid=12770130

Finfacts also has extensive reporting on more US banking disasters, while UK ministers are meeting about the same issue, today.

Meanwhile Deutsche Bank lost 4bn in the last quarter.

Frankly, I may have low expectations, but a big medal to any Government who comes out of this in 2 years time with any sort of a semblance of recovery.

I've no sympathy for Quinn who was quite frankly acting like a cowboy in the manner he was running his business and his investment. The fine he got should have been a hell of alot more than 3 million blings. The people I feel sorry for are the thousands of small invetsors. Lets not forget many of these people were the ones who did not engage in the celtic tiger splurge, instead they did the "prudent" thing and put their savings not into flatscreen televisions and soft top cars but into what everyone told them were good solid stocks to support them in their retirement. Of course these investments helped fund the celtic tiger splurgers to buy their hot tubs and their 40 inch tvs. Now the whole thing is up shit creek and who ends up better off? The responsible people end up with nothing whilst the cowboy developers essentially get a bailout and the splurgers keep their hot tubs.

Edo wrote:

1) Tonys and Zhou - I told yis the re-capitalization scheme was botched a few weeks ago and we'd be back to the lifebouys by March - Well 1 down and 3 to go and its only the middle of January , Richard Bruton told yis it was botched too when it was announced - yis can kiss my ass at a moment of your convenience.

Can you point me to my post that predicates such pecking of posteriors?

Anglo Statement:

"The Board of Anglo Irish Bank met this evening following the decision of the Government not to proceed with the recapitalisation of the Bank. The Government advised the Board of its willingness to take the Bank into public ownership. The Board will work fully with the Government to ensure the long-term commercial viability of the Bank.

Anglo Irish Bank will continue to trade normally as a going concern and accordingly customers and providers of funding can be fully assured of the safety of their deposits and investments, which remain State guaranteed. The Board and management are committed to driving the business forward on an independent and commercial basis.

The Government has confirmed that all employees remain employees of the Bank.

The purpose of the EGM, planned for tomorrow, Friday 16 January, no longer exists. It is intended as a result to open and adjourn the meeting as the proposals tabled are no longer relevant."

Anglo's statement effectively treats its shareholders as nobodies notwithstanding that the nationalisation has not taken place yet. The shareholders still own the effing bank and the nationalisation might not go ahead just as recapitalisation didn't go ahead.

The Board appears to be already dancing to the tune of its new owners notwithstanding that the legislation has not been passed. If I was a shareholder I would go apesh_t at the EGM today.

McWilliams reckons there was a run on the bank because people did not want to be associated with it after its reputational collapse. Apparently he predicted this, timetable and all, in an article on new year's eve. That's impressive.

If we make this a toxic bank are we not doing what the Hank Paulson proposed in the USA with the buy out of toxic assets. Granted we are doing it in a round about and probably easier to administer way, but doesn't it amount to the same thing??

I don't know what to make of the flip-flopping by the Government on this. By all means change your mind as the facts change but there was no need for them to try to create shareholder confidence by saying there were good prospects for shareholders. They should have been concentrating on creating depositor confidence by saying that they were going to hammer anyone engaging in dodgy dealings.
Also, the flip-flopping means that Anglo's loss of credibility has spillled over to the Government. I don't think international players will be offended or surprised by the change of mind. all Governments have been carrying on like that for the past year. However, the citizens need to feel that there is solid action being taken because ultimately it is unity of purpose on the part of our citizens that will be needed to pull us through this. This isn't the currency crisis all over again. This is way more serious. We cannot keep tossing and turning in the wind. We need to feel that we are down but not out. That we are bruised but not reeling.

Anglo was brought down by the psychological impact of incompetent and unacceptable dealings. There is a stark lesson in that.

And now some poetry...

" An aged man is but a paltry thing,
A tattered coat upon a stick, unless
Soul clap its hands and sing, and louder sing
For every tatter in its mortal dress,"

"In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced or cried aloud
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbow'd"

From the pin:



LOL

we are not the first country (that honour belongs with Gordon Brown and the UK), nor will we be the last, to nationalise a bank.

I don't think this will be remembered internationally by the end of the week. They have Citi and Bank of America to worry about now

Plus there are reports of UK ministers discussing more recaps

Love to know why.....

coc wrote:

From the pin:



LOL

Did they whip my (almost) nickname for them from last October ?

Auditor #9 wrote:

All too Irish Banks
Bank of Oirland - Lamp in your crock of Gold with our Managers
Irish Life - Permanent & Penshionable
EBS - Excellent Bonus Society
Quanglo Irish Bank
Irish Nationwide Pay Deals

https://machinenation.forumakers.com/economy-business-and-finance-f8/government-almost-nationalises-the-banks-anglo-irish-bank-to-be-nationalised-t1307-275.htm#48935

expat girl wrote:

we are not the first country (that honour belongs with Gordon Brown and the UK), nor will we be the last, to nationalise a bank.

I don't think this will be remembered internationally by the end of the week. They have Citi and Bank of America to worry about now

Plus there are reports of UK ministers discussing more recaps

Love to know why.....

Underlying the whole thing - millions of people in China, India, Brazil and elsewhere have left subsistence agriculture in the last fifteen years, manufacturing production increased enormously while prices and profit margins went down. People in the west relied increasingly on debt to pay for what they consume. Cheap imports cushioned the impact of the change. The US borrowed from China to buy from China. Property and land were the only things that the developing countries couldn't sell us cut price: we couldn't afford them anyway, so we borrowed. Interest rates were kept low to keep us spending.

I always used to wonder growing up how come we happen to have a living standard so much higher than the rest of the world - answer - we controlled their raw materials, extracted them back here and kept the manufacturing at home, selling the products back to them. This has reversed. Globalism has generated an enormous crisis in capitalism. It is hard to see that dropping interest rates and printing money is going to overcome it: it can't.

Auditor #9 wrote:

coc wrote:

From the pin:



LOL

Did they whip my (almost) nickname for them from last October ?

Auditor #9 wrote:

All too Irish Banks
Bank of Oirland - Lamp in your crock of Gold with our Managers
Irish Life - Permanent & Penshionable
EBS - Excellent Bonus Society
Quanglo Irish Bank
Irish Nationwide Pay Deals

https://machinenation.forumakers.com/economy-business-and-finance-f8/government-almost-nationalises-the-banks-anglo-irish-bank-to-be-nationalised-t1307-275.htm#48935

Yes, but they got the spelling wrong.

Total directors loans at Anglo €179 Million. HERE

rte.ie wrote:

Anglo Irish Bank has revealed that the total level of loans to directors stands at €179m. The company's new chairman, Donal O'Connor, made the revelation at an extraordinary general meeting of the bank in Dublin today.