Nationalisation Watch / Govt. rethinking 3.5 billion bailout for the banks?

Government has announced that Anglo Irish Bank is to be nationalised rather than recapitalised, due to it wrecked reputation and loss of credibility as a financial institution.

cactus flower wrote:

Government has announced that Anglo Irish Bank is to be nationalised rather than recapitalised, due to it wrecked reputation and loss of credibility as a financial institution.

So we don't need to spend 1.5 billion on this basket case then and just hope it doesn't all go sideways within the next few months or do we have National Liquidators who will deal with the bad debt they could have ?

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And because, as Gene Kerrigan said, Sean Fitzpatrick is a sneaky bastard.

Does this mean the government auditors will get to look at all the stuff old 'Seanie' was up to now ?

Well Well Well huh!

1) Tonys and Zhou - I told yis the re-capitalization scheme was botched a few weeks ago and we'd be back to the lifebouys by March - Well 1 down and 3 to go and its only the middle of January , Richard Bruton told yis it was botched too when it was announced - yis can kiss my ass at a moment of your convenience.

2) Pity the shareholders - they will probably possibly get 5 cent a share if they are lucky - all depends on the assessor - they might get lucky knowing FF's partiality to appointing total pussies and giving away taxpayers money to gamblers.

3) What the fuck did Lenihan mean when he said that Anglo Irish were of "systemic" value to the Irish Banking Sector?

Is that A) :that B of I, AIB,ILP and Anglo are all caught up in gigantic granny knot of mutual borrowing and lending - M.O.G if that is true!

or B) That Anglo Irish are of systemic value to the FF funding sector!

4) Interesting that it happens just before a meeting where Shane Ross and a rake of folks were going to tear the entire board a new one over the way the bank had been run - wont happen now will it? - very convenient.

5) Congratuations tax payers - you are now all the proud owners of Anglo Irish banks - which has 70 Billion on its loan book - non performing potential of at least between 6 and 20 billion euros - that we kind of know of - the loan book is a whos who of the flash harry developer world - yikes - and in all honesty a couple boxes of king crisps and slab of bulmers as collateral in the banks vaults.

Yes - the conspiracy continues - and the developers boyos dodge yet another bullet -they think - I'll be writing to Leo V with his new mission - to hound the hell out of the government over this acquistion and make sure that there is a proper PAC investigation set up into Anglo Irish (the regulator is currently running one - yeah right )

Lenihan already had his boys in for a gander. Hence the strong words about the '87 million dollar man' on the news tonight.

This bank is not required by Ireland. It was unheard of 10 years ago, when it operated as the Dublin City Bank. It has largely been used as a loan conduit for developers. The Irish people do not need this heap of poo.

Profile of Sean Fitzpatrick in the SBP.

What a nice man, don't you think?

Ronald Binge wrote:

Profile of Sean Fitzpatrick in the SBP.

What a nice man, don't you think?

Says it all Ronald. Scumbag.

It's going to become a junkyard for all the other banks' write-offs now, isn't it?

Looks like Lenihan is going down the McWilliams route after all.

Edo wrote:

Well Well Well huh!

1) Tonys and Zhou - I told yis the re-capitalization scheme was botched a few weeks ago and we'd be back to the lifebouys by March - Well 1 down and 3 to go and its only the middle of January , Richard Bruton told yis it was botched too when it was announced - yis can kiss my ass at a moment of your convenience.

2) Pity the shareholders - they will probably possibly get 5 cent a share if they are lucky - all depends on the assessor - they might get lucky knowing FF's partiality to appointing total pussies and giving away taxpayers money to gamblers.

3) What the fuck did Lenihan mean when he said that Anglo Irish were of "systemic" value to the Irish Banking Sector?

Is that A) :that B of I, AIB,ILP and Anglo are all caught up in gigantic granny knot of mutual borrowing and lending - M.O.G if that is true!

or B) That Anglo Irish are of systemic value to the FF funding sector!

4) Interesting that it happens just before a meeting where Shane Ross and a rake of folks were going to tear the entire board a new one over the way the bank had been run - wont happen now will it? - very convenient.

5) Congratuations tax payers - you are now all the proud owners of Anglo Irish banks - which has 70 Billion on its loan book - non performing potential of at least between 6 and 20 billion euros - that we kind of know of - the loan book is a whos who of the flash harry developer world - yikes - and in all honesty a couple boxes of king crisps and slab of bulmers as collateral in the banks vaults.

Yes - the conspiracy continues - and the developers boyos dodge yet another bullet -they think - I'll be writing to Leo V with his new mission - to hound the hell out of the government over this acquistion and make sure that there is a proper PAC investigation set up into Anglo Irish (the regulator is currently running one - yeah right )

Systemic ? What the fu does that mean. This bank is of no use to the Irish people. It was unheard of 10 years ago, when it was called the Dublin City bank or something. Lenihan is full of poo. We don't need this poxy bank any more than I need a jacuzzi.
That 70 Billion loan book could be only 80% recoverable, or 14 Billion bad debt. Lovely.

It will take some serious number crunching to find out if the loans terms and rates can provide a big enough cushion for inevitable defaults.

toxic avenger wrote:

It's going to become a junkyard for all the other banks' write-offs now, isn't it?

Looks like Lenihan is going down the McWilliams route after all.

Thats an interesting point Toxic - but to believe that - you'd have to believe that the Government have a plan - a plan that isn't turned upside down every 24 hours.

Twas interesting about those big offloads of Anglo Irish shares which happened in the early evening wasn't it? - squillions of shares sold- but all in only 5 trades - somebody got lucky didn't they

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Systemic ? What the fu does that mean. This bank is of no use to the Irish people. It was unheard of 10 years ago, when it was called the Dublin City bank or something. Lenihan is full of poo. We don't need this poxy bank any more than I need a jacuzzi.
That 70 Billion loan book could be only 80% recoverable, or 14 Billion bad debt. Lovely.

It will take some serious number crunching to find out if the loans terms and rates can provide a big enough cushion for inevitable defaults.

From the 'systemic' I immediately got 'bank run' anyway.


14 billion of bad debt, say, is that 14 billion worth of price-challenged property, some of it half built ? Does this mean that the taxpayer now has to service this debt too ? If it was 'wound down' as Enda Kenny said it should be, what happens to this debt ?

On the other hand there are performing loans which could bring in something for the country. Or are these loans less than the cost and trouble with the bad debts ?

Over on the other site, Constitutionus has reported having noticed a very high volume of trading in anglo between 5.30 and 5.42pm this evening, over one million shares changing hands at 21c for all bar one, only five trades though, yet accounting for 10% of total volume for the day.

I won't add anything to that, beyond wondering as to the normality of it...

toxic avenger wrote:

Over on the other site, Constitutionus has reported having noticed a very high volume of trading in anglo between 5.30 and 5.42pm this evening, over one million shares changing hands at 21c for all bar one, only five trades though, yet accounting for 10% of total volume for the day.

I won't add anything to that, beyond wondering as to the normality of it...

Edo just said it above ... there were 5 lots of sell-offs before announcement of the Nationalisation ? Shouldn't this be investigated too ?

Well, Anglo would have plenty of liabilities too to other banks. Only a proportion of the 70 Billion it dished out would have come from deposits. The rest (maybe 90%) is from borrowing money on the market.

I suspect a shitload of deposits have fled by now, possibly starting this time last year. So the bank is way over-leveraged. They still have to pay back all the dosh the borrowed to loan out.

(If I say something that is clearly bull-poo, say so, I'm not a banker)

So I'm thinking, the market value, based on share price is like 300 Million or something.

They have assets of 70 Billion, 14 of which could go bad. Feck all real deposits. And with the continuing ban on short selling, the only thing keeping the share price above 0.0001 cent is daily speculation.

My analogy for this is that I borrow € 1000 off you so I can enter my pig in a hang gliding competition. First prize is € 5000. I offer you the pig as security. You borrow € 900 from your local priest and find € 100 in your back pocket, that your buddy asked you to mind one night when he was pissed. So I get the € 1000, and you get a flying pig as security.

Now what happens if the pig don't fly ?

Edo wrote:

toxic avenger wrote:

It's going to become a junkyard for all the other banks' write-offs now, isn't it?

Looks like Lenihan is going down the McWilliams route after all.

Thats an interesting point Toxic - but to believe that - you'd have to believe that the Government have a plan - a plan that isn't turned upside down every 24 hours.

Twas interesting about those big offloads of Anglo Irish shares which happened in the early evening wasn't it? - squillions of shares sold- but all in only 5 trades - somebody got lucky didn't they

Apologies Edo, missed your response. I wonder who is watching this? It's some timing, isn't it?...

toxic avenger wrote:

Edo wrote:

toxic avenger wrote:

It's going to become a junkyard for all the other banks' write-offs now, isn't it?

Looks like Lenihan is going down the McWilliams route after all.

Thats an interesting point Toxic - but to believe that - you'd have to believe that the Government have a plan - a plan that isn't turned upside down every 24 hours.

Twas interesting about those big offloads of Anglo Irish shares which happened in the early evening wasn't it? - squillions of shares sold- but all in only 5 trades - somebody got lucky didn't they

Apologies Edo, missed your response. I wonder who is watching this? It's some timing, isn't it?...

Edo, where did you hear about the 5 big trades ? There was just over 10 Million shares traded today, that's a regular enough occurrence these last few weeks. The last trade today was 286,000 shares. I don't know if it was buy or sell.

A mate of me dads whos a broker - with my auld lads banking portfolio going to hell in a handbasket at the moment - they are in daily contact - the rumour was going around about tea time that Anglo were going to be nationalised - he let us in on it around 6 30 or so and commented on the share transactions - ok it was only a million or so shares - but all in a ten minute spell around 5.30 - when Im sure somebody knew that this plan was being finalised - probably just a co-incidence eh? -

I'd well believe it Edo. My post sounded like 10 Million trades was small, I didn't mean it like that. Usually Anglo trades about 2-3 Million per day. So 10 Mill today is massive, but just not the biggest.

Coincidence for certain Edo.

I just can't think about this fully right tonight ... 10 million shares get sold at 22c and tomorrow those shares will be worth 5c if they're lucky ? Who the fuck bought the shares ?

10 Million traded. Total of bought and sold.

I use the RTE one most of the time because of the price history provided by ShareWatch

http://www.rte.ie/business/markets/iseq.html

Go there and see most actice in Top RHS

Thare may still have been investors in ther hoping for a comeback...

From a FG statement:

Quote :

Finally, the Government needs to clarify if today's announcement has
the effect of extending the State guarantee to any additional
liabilities of the bank, including the owners of €2bn in perpetual
preference shares

Perpetual Preference Shares ?? WTF ? You can never cash them in or you get money for life ?

Will there be lots of shareholders looking for their money back tomorrow ?

Next move will be movement of bad debts from the other banks to Anglo.

hi guys, just remind me again of Sean Quinn's current position in all of this at the moment. What does he own / owe / whatever?

* Edit: as far as is known. *