New RTÉ show on Cromwell - Eoghain Harris doesn't like it. Will it be good then?

They had less Harte though

More dead in one day than all of the Civil War? Boy I'm shouting for Tyrone on Sunday.

cactus flower wrote:

Too much reenactment and po-faced historians using the present tense for things that happened nearly 500 years ago.

Grrr!!! That does my bloody nut! I HATE when historians use the present tense to describe things long ago. Do I use the future tense to describe what I did the other day? "Yesterday I will go out to buy the newspaper and I will look forward to University Challenge at eight". No I don't because it's stupid and a fundamental lack of understanding of the English language. It is so annoying the way they do that. It smacks of pretensiousness imo and it was one of the many reasons why I find(or should that be found?) What If? to be such an insufferable programme.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Too much reenactment and po-faced historians using the present tense for things that happened nearly 500 years ago.

Grrr!!! That does my bloody nut! I HATE when historians use the present tense to describe things long ago. Do I use the future tense to describe what I did the other day? "Yesterday I will go out to buy the newspaper and I will look forward to University Challenge at eight". No I don't because it's stupid and a fundamental lack of understanding of the English language. It is so annoying the way they do that. It smacks of pretensiousness imo and it was one of the many reasons why I find(or should that be found?) What If? to be such an insufferable programme.

Oh Ard-Taoiseach. Such a relief to hear you say that. I thought it was only me.

Nearly five hundred years ago? Cactus Flower, are you writing this from the future? You will be an awful hypocrite everytime you will write like that?

On the documentary itself I thought it was quite good. decent enough. I`d be interested in finding out more about Aodh Dubh Ó Néill. Tough man.

anmajornarthainig wrote:

On the documentary itself I thought it was quite good. decent enough. I`d be interested in finding out more about Aodh Dubh Ó Néill. Tough man.

Yeah was an interesting one - I'm sorry I missed the first part as the battles were presented well and the whole thing about shoving the irish in a reservation in Connemara was fairly shocking. Did the Travellers originate here I wonder? Just how ethnically cleansed were the Irish at the time? What fraction of the population were leftover after the place was replanted?

Cactus and Ard-Taoiseach: On the device of using the present tense - "Cromwell sees a hole in the defences in Clonmel and approches the city cafefully with 10,000 men. He has plenty of money and plenty of men and plenty of everything and intends to subdue their will or he will butcher everyone and their uncle. As the smoke goes across the town, the Lord Protector urges his troops toward the hole in that wall through which you would hardly drive a Citroen C4. He either doesn't know or doesn't care that Aodh Dubh O'Neill is waiting behind the wall with 40,000 canonballs. Later on that day Cromwell does a lot of cursing and swearing ... "

It might be a device you hate or love but it might give a bit of drama to the whole thing. History can be very dull for thickos like me unless it's spruced up a bit.

Yes, but history is about the past ....

Now as far as RTÉ is concerned a modicum of praise is due for bringing this documentary to our screens. I'm often more than negative about their programming or lack of it but this presentation is worth considerable qualified praise.

I note Ard-T and Cactus criticisms but hey this generation don't have the patience for great historical documentaries like Ken Burn's The Civil War and the BBC's The Ascent of Man where we are taken through the evidence and have the time to paint on a broader canvas. I would find fault that they didn't make a longer series that would have teased out various other aspects of that era including slavery or as the revisionists would insist 'indentured service'.

As for the show itself I thought it quite engaging. Míchéal Ó Siochrú brought a style of presentation which was refreshing if not original but beats the bejusus out of Cathal O'Shannon's dronings. The drama was very good in places but thon boy playin Cromwell was a bit too Dodderside for my liking. Now to be honest I was revvvved up by the Clonmel bit as I've read a fair bit about it and was hoping they could get close to my visualising of those events. I was not disappointed. It measured up well to the facts as I have read in various accounts and made the point that Aodh Dubh Ó Néill left Clonmel undercover of dark and did not surrender as has been alleged in not so worthy tomes. He did fire a good section of those trusty burghers of Limerick to the dogs outside the walls but isn't it the same story in Limerick today.

And speaking of burgers, at least he didn't treat us to a tour-de-force on the Golden Arches in Drogheda.

It was, I believe, a story told from the point of view of the underdog and the subsequently vanquished and I always cheer when Custer gets his comeuppance. It really doesn't matter what the Cromwell apologists say about him, he will go down in folk history with the likes of Vlad the Impaler and Ivan the Terrible. A name that will echo darkly down the ages. A by-word for gore which always appeals to the fans of tales of yore.

....................*grabs a wench and tears at his side of ox*.....................

Quote :

He did fire a good section of those trusty burghers of Limerick to the dogs outside the walls but isn't it the same story in Limerick today. :wink:

To hell or to Ennis eh?

There aren't enough programmes on like that about great old battles and king-beheadings and all. It would have been nice if the programme had been embedded in a larger history of the English Civil War where we'd see the king get it and his head end up in Galway.

Another fella was Fiach MacHugh O'Byrne of the 'Follow me up to Carlow' song fame - I'd like to see such a documentary about him as he sounds interesting from the bits I've read.

cactus flower wrote:

Yes, but history is about the past ....

As a wise man once said.

Auditor #9 wrote:

anmajornarthainig wrote:

On the documentary itself I thought it was quite good. decent enough. I`d be interested in finding out more about Aodh Dubh Ó Néill. Tough man.

Yeah was an interesting one - I'm sorry I missed the first part as the battles were presented well and the whole thing about shoving the irish in a reservation in Connemara was fairly shocking. Did the Travellers originate here I wonder? Just how ethnically cleansed were the Irish at the time? What fraction of the population were leftover after the place was replanted?

I never heard that one about the Travellers but I heard the idea that they started during the Famine. I think the linguistic evidence points to a much earlier diversion from the main population, around the eleventh century (and don't mention the Normans). Unfortunately I can't point to a reference.

I don't think that Harristotle is going to like the programme at all. It didn't really coincide with his crackpot view of history in that it showed that Cromwell was a very nasty piece of work. It may just give the crank an aneurysm.

Regards..jmcc

He'll probably lament that Míchéal Ó Siochrú's sporting of an earring was indicative of crypto-facist provo tendancies.........and he'd be right too

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

He'll probably lament that Míchéal Ó Siochrú's sporting of an earring was indicative of crypto-facist provo tendancies.........and he'd be right too

The earring was eye-catching all right. At the end of the day though I think the programme generated more heat than light. Why did the towns let him pick them off one by one like that. Was there no capacity to raise an army?

cactus flower wrote:

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

He'll probably lament that Míchéal Ó Siochrú's sporting of an earring was indicative of crypto-facist provo tendancies.........and he'd be right too

The earring was eye-catching all right. At the end of the day though I think the programme generated more heat than light. Why did the towns let him pick them off one by one like that. Was there no capacity to raise an army?

I think Aodh Dubh and his fellow commanders were picking where they had a better chance. A big lesson learnt from Kinsale. No point in an open battlefield. The english could always rely on a superior artillrey. If you couldn't throw stones from behind a ditch then why not from behind a pile of stones.Aodh Dubh combined the two and then skidaddled hoping to fight another day and meanwhile sapping Cromwell's resources.