Palin for VP - Inspired or Disastrous?

Squire wrote:

The power of Rove.

Always remember Richard Neville when considering King makers. In the end the King may not prove pliable and have a will of his own.

If we were just talking about one king maker maybe, but there is only so far a man can travell weighed down by the whole Bush team.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/mccain-hires-go.html

[

Quote :

b]Just How Unlike George Bush John McCain Really Is[/b]

Ask Tucker Eskew. He's part of the political architectural team that effectively destroyed Senator John McCain's chances for the presidency in 2000 as part of George W. Bush's smear campaign in the South Carolina Primary. He and Warren Tompkins and Neal Rhodes masterminded a push-polling campaign that asked voters if they knew about Senator McCain's involvement in the S&L Scandal and the Keating Five. McCain lost the South Carolina Primary. Bush went on to become president through a recount in Florida, helped by Eskew, Tompkins, and Rhodes, called by one McCain adviser, "the darker side of our party."

That darker side now shadows vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin. Tucker Eskew has been hired by McCain camp to help Palin with media matters and prepare her acceptance speech to be delivered at the Republican National Convention.

ABC's Jake Tapper was the reporter that quoted the McCain adviser in 2000. When he asked the 2008 McCain campaign if they had a comment on how the despised Tucker Eskew could be employed by Senator McCain when he was held responsible for the smear campaign in South Carolina, the answer was "No."

Of all the political consultants in the nation, Tucker Eskew probably was not the first choice most people, including Republicans, would have even considered, never mind hired, to be anything connected to the McCain campaign. Yet, there he is.

Remember, though, Tucker Eskew was on the winning side.

The question then must be asked: Just exactly how different from president George W. Bush is John McCain?

His political consultants and advisers read like a who's who of former Bush consultants and advisers. There's Karl Rove, Bush's former Chief of Staff and the acknowledged political mastermind of Bush's presidency. There's Ken Mehlman, the guy who ran Bush's reelection campaign. And Kevin Hassett, McCain's chief economic adviser also worked for the Bush administration. There are dozens more.

And, of course, there is Tucker Eskew, smear consultant extraordinaire.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1004978/tucker_eskew_the_darker_side_of_john.html

The Palin selection seems to be a selection of/by Pentagon over the CIA in terms of factions ?

Anyone see the debate?

"Say it ain't so, Joe"

Missed most of it, but caught Joe telling us how he had saved the Bosniaks.

She must have winked 3 times at the camera.

Strangely enough I woke up in time to watch the debate. Wrecked today.

Towards the end I had to switch channels when Palin spoke. That prom-queen smile she turns on like an electric light bulb was spooking me out. It could be me but she has all the sincerety of an estate agent wearing sun glasses.

I wish she could have debated against Hillary Clinton. Hillary could have come out square on and tore strips off her. Unless Palin has a script in front of her, she hasn't got a baldies. Even her apparent off the cuff remarks came across as rehearsed.

There's only two things a VP has to do according to the US constitutions. Casting the deciding vote in a senate tie breaker. (I'm remembering Black Adder when Balrick became an MP and voted the wrong way.) Second, the VP becomes President if the President dies. I can understand Palin being Mayor of a small town in Alaska. I'm somewhat bemused how she became Alaska's governor. I'd be scared witless if she became US president. She's clueless.

Biden was ok. He's knows his foreign policy and spakes a far more moderate line that would have been in keeping with Clinton's policies. Nothing to write home about - a safe pair of hands.

I still wish Clinton had got the nod. She's the only with a bit of gumption that would have made some hard choices. I'm afraid Obama won't be up to the task. The US needs to face a couple of really hard decades and pay of its debt. There's no leadership to lead the way. The Americans are living in pure denial when they talk about tax cuts. Who are they kidding? The world's other powers from Latin American, to Europe to the Far East smell blood and they're going to gobble the US one wee piece at a time.

But would Palin have been McCain's running mate had Obama picked Hillary - I doubt it. The whole point of McCain picking her was to pick up disaffected Hillary voters. Such voters would not have existed had Hillary been running mate - the dynamic would have been completely different.

I entirely agree with your observations Johnfás. It's just that Biden, due to the gender issue, couldn't tear into Palin and reveal the vacumn behind the smile.

Hillary would have slowly and painfully stripped Palin down to the core on real issues to reveal the emptiness.

Biden did very well in revealing the utter shite that the Republican PR merchants tried to peddle on voting records. In fact, he had the facts and figures in front of him to rebut Palin's prepared statements on very many occasions.

As you can tell by now, I amn't a fan of Palin or the Republicans.

Is anyone on this board a fan of the Republicans?

johnfás wrote:

Is anyone on this board a fan of the Republicans?

Weelll, depends on what kind of Republicans we're talking aboot. Better not go there.

johnfás wrote:

Is anyone on this board a fan of the Republicans?

Well, some have Palin avatars on this and other politically related sites. The mentality is one I have huge difficulty understanding. There was a time, long ago (before 1960) when the Republican Party did some good for America. But their record of progressively shifting politics in general to the far right is appalling. They dumb down politics to twist and warp the presentation of issues, killing rational debate and generally appealing to people of low intelligence with patriotism and religion and to people with average intelligence with tax cuts. The cause they really serve, private capital, bankrolls this rubbish in major corporate donations, particularly the oil companies and the defence industry. It is a truly odious party who have destroyed the US economy and insulted its electorate by presenting possibly the worst Presidential and Vice-Presidential candidates in living memory (and bearing in mind Bush/Cheney that is some boast). The fact that they are still in the game in this election is staggering. Anywhere else and they would be gone the way of Lehmann, Fannie, Freddie etc. Bizarre.

Slim Buddha wrote:

johnfás wrote:

Is anyone on this board a fan of the Republicans?

Well, some have Palin avatars on this and other politically related sites. The mentality is one I have huge difficulty understanding. There was a time, long ago (before 1960) when the Republican Party did some good for America. But their record of progressively shifting politics in general to the far right is appalling. They dumb down politics to twist and warp the presentation of issues, killing rational debate and generally appealing to people of low intelligence with patriotism and religion and to people with average intelligence with tax cuts. The cause they really serve, private capital, bankrolls this rubbish in major corporate donations, particularly the oil companies and the defence industry. It is a truly odious party who have destroyed the US economy and insulted its electorate by presenting possibly the worst Presidential and Vice-Presidential candidates in living memory (and bearing in mind Bush/Cheney that is some boast). The fact that they are still in the game in this election is staggering. Anywhere else and they would be gone the way of Lehmann, Fannie, Freddie etc. Bizarre.

Slim Buddha, I don't believe they are in the game.

I heard sizeable chunks of the debate today - the woman is lethal. She should be in something like Desperate Housewives, rather than the West Wing. Isn't there a neurotic, control-freak Mommie Dearest in DH? There is no gravitas, no depth, no information, no empathy or engagement with people. I wouldn't trust her with a paper bag.

Tbh, I despair of either McCain or Obama and their respective companies taking over the leadership of the 'Free World' - and no, youngdan, Ron Paul wouldn't make me any happier.

The idea that any person with real ideas is going to rise up and drastically change America's course in the foreseeable future is a dream, nothing more. Particularly in the face of organisations which can raise and are funded to levels approaching and exceeding hundreds of millions of dollars.

cactus flower wrote:

Slim Buddha wrote:

johnfás wrote:

Is anyone on this board a fan of the Republicans?

Well, some have Palin avatars on this and other politically related sites. The mentality is one I have huge difficulty understanding. There was a time, long ago (before 1960) when the Republican Party did some good for America. But their record of progressively shifting politics in general to the far right is appalling. They dumb down politics to twist and warp the presentation of issues, killing rational debate and generally appealing to people of low intelligence with patriotism and religion and to people with average intelligence with tax cuts. The cause they really serve, private capital, bankrolls this rubbish in major corporate donations, particularly the oil companies and the defence industry. It is a truly odious party who have destroyed the US economy and insulted its electorate by presenting possibly the worst Presidential and Vice-Presidential candidates in living memory (and bearing in mind Bush/Cheney that is some boast). The fact that they are still in the game in this election is staggering. Anywhere else and they would be gone the way of Lehmann, Fannie, Freddie etc. Bizarre.

Slim Buddha, I don't believe they are in the game.

Quite, cactus flower. I was speaking metaphorically. It certainly is not a game but I sincerely believe if the Democratic nominee for President was white, the Democrats would be out of sight in the internet polling now as well as face-to-face polling. Regardless of the quality of Obama's candiditure, his colour is a factor in this election. The Republicans have the trailer trash vote, the white cracker Southern vote, the funda-mentalist religious vote and the possessors of significant private capital vote sewn up. But all this only adds up to a clear minority. Anybody who stops to think about who ruined their economy, who screwed them over and over again with anti-employee legislation, who destroyed the health care system and blocked Democratic suggestions for the reform of that system from 1992 to 1994, who outsourced the profits of war to private companies while their sons and daughters were being asked to reckon with the supreme sacrifice for the cause, not of some woolly "freedom" in Iraq, but a rise in the Halliburton share price, then these people will put the blame for this disgrace squarely at the door of the Republican Party.

In the second vote on the bailout, the Republicans distinguished themselves again by having a majority of their number vote against it. Again. They created this mess yet still refused in a majority of their number to start to clean it up. I mean, just where do these people get off?? It is a testimony to the power of the press in the United States that the Republicans are still a significant political force. Even FOX News is regarded as a serious broadcaster. The Spirit of Josef Goebbels is alive and well. Always tell them the BIG lie. This the Republicans have mastered better than almost any other political entity on the planet and FOX is a significant part of the propaganda machine. FOX. 24/7. 7 minutes of news. 24 hours a day. Every day.

Slim Buddha wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Slim Buddha wrote:

johnfás wrote:

Is anyone on this board a fan of the Republicans?

Well, some have Palin avatars on this and other politically related sites. The mentality is one I have huge difficulty understanding. There was a time, long ago (before 1960) when the Republican Party did some good for America. But their record of progressively shifting politics in general to the far right is appalling. They dumb down politics to twist and warp the presentation of issues, killing rational debate and generally appealing to people of low intelligence with patriotism and religion and to people with average intelligence with tax cuts. The cause they really serve, private capital, bankrolls this rubbish in major corporate donations, particularly the oil companies and the defence industry. It is a truly odious party who have destroyed the US economy and insulted its electorate by presenting possibly the worst Presidential and Vice-Presidential candidates in living memory (and bearing in mind Bush/Cheney that is some boast). The fact that they are still in the game in this election is staggering. Anywhere else and they would be gone the way of Lehmann, Fannie, Freddie etc. Bizarre.

Slim Buddha, I don't believe they are in the game.

Quite, cactus flower. I was speaking metaphorically. It certainly is not a game but I sincerely believe if the Democratic nominee for President was white, the Democrats would be out of sight in the internet polling now as well as face-to-face polling. Regardless of the quality of Obama's candiditure, his colour is a factor in this election. The Republicans have the trailer trash vote, the white cracker Southern vote, the funda-mentalist religious vote and the possessors of significant private capital vote sewn up. But all this only adds up to a clear minority. Anybody who stops to think about who ruined their economy, who screwed them over and over again with anti-employee legislation, who destroyed the health care system and blocked Democratic suggestions for the reform of that system from 1992 to 1994, who outsourced the profits of war to private companies while their sons and daughters were being asked to reckon with the supreme sacrifice for the cause, not of some woolly "freedom" in Iraq, but a rise in the Halliburton share price, then these people will put the blame for this disgrace squarely at the door of the Republican Party.

In the second vote on the bailout, the Republicans distinguished themselves again by having a majority of their number vote against it. Again. They created this mess yet still refused in a majority of their number to start to clean it up. I mean, just where do these people get off?? It is a testimony to the power of the press in the United States that the Republicans are still a significant political force. Even FOX News is regarded as a serious broadcaster. The Spirit of Josef Goebbels is alive and well. Always tell them the BIG lie. This the Republicans have mastered better than almost any other political entity on the planet and FOX is a significant part of the propaganda machine. FOX. 24/7. 7 minutes of news. 24 hours a day. Every day.

Internet is a growing factor in allowing a different kind of political debate ( and I don't just mean Machine Nation ). It is becoming a real factor and no one can doubt that it contributed to the Congress No vote and the anti bail out demonstrations. It would be surprising if there aren't moves to try to block it before too long, for all the complaints about the Chinese government. We'll all have to learn semaphore then.

cactus flower wrote:

Slim Buddha wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Slim Buddha wrote:

johnfás wrote:

Is anyone on this board a fan of the Republicans?

Well, some have Palin avatars on this and other politically related sites. The mentality is one I have huge difficulty understanding. There was a time, long ago (before 1960) when the Republican Party did some good for America. But their record of progressively shifting politics in general to the far right is appalling. They dumb down politics to twist and warp the presentation of issues, killing rational debate and generally appealing to people of low intelligence with patriotism and religion and to people with average intelligence with tax cuts. The cause they really serve, private capital, bankrolls this rubbish in major corporate donations, particularly the oil companies and the defence industry. It is a truly odious party who have destroyed the US economy and insulted its electorate by presenting possibly the worst Presidential and Vice-Presidential candidates in living memory (and bearing in mind Bush/Cheney that is some boast). The fact that they are still in the game in this election is staggering. Anywhere else and they would be gone the way of Lehmann, Fannie, Freddie etc. Bizarre.

Slim Buddha, I don't believe they are in the game.

Quite, cactus flower. I was speaking metaphorically. It certainly is not a game but I sincerely believe if the Democratic nominee for President was white, the Democrats would be out of sight in the internet polling now as well as face-to-face polling. Regardless of the quality of Obama's candiditure, his colour is a factor in this election. The Republicans have the trailer trash vote, the white cracker Southern vote, the funda-mentalist religious vote and the possessors of significant private capital vote sewn up. But all this only adds up to a clear minority. Anybody who stops to think about who ruined their economy, who screwed them over and over again with anti-employee legislation, who destroyed the health care system and blocked Democratic suggestions for the reform of that system from 1992 to 1994, who outsourced the profits of war to private companies while their sons and daughters were being asked to reckon with the supreme sacrifice for the cause, not of some woolly "freedom" in Iraq, but a rise in the Halliburton share price, then these people will put the blame for this disgrace squarely at the door of the Republican Party.

In the second vote on the bailout, the Republicans distinguished themselves again by having a majority of their number vote against it. Again. They created this mess yet still refused in a majority of their number to start to clean it up. I mean, just where do these people get off?? It is a testimony to the power of the press in the United States that the Republicans are still a significant political force. Even FOX News is regarded as a serious broadcaster. The Spirit of Josef Goebbels is alive and well. Always tell them the BIG lie. This the Republicans have mastered better than almost any other political entity on the planet and FOX is a significant part of the propaganda machine. FOX. 24/7. 7 minutes of news. 24 hours a day. Every day.

Internet is a growing factor in allowing a different kind of political debate ( and I don't just mean Machine Nation ). It is becoming a real factor and no one can doubt that it contributed to the Congress No vote and the anti bail out demonstrations. It would be surprising if there aren't moves to try to block it before too long, for all the complaints about the Chinese government. We'll all have to learn semaphore then.

I think it is useless trying to stand in the way of a widely used technology. A touch of the King Canute's about it. Maybe it just needs to have some rules applied to it in polling. A ban seems to be futile.

Back to topic. Sarah Palin is regarded by some to have "drawn" the debate against Biden. I disagree. Her answers were scripted, her delivery unsure, her faux-folksiness laid bare, her lack of knowledge apparent and Biden resisted the temptation to flatten her. The is no votes in beating up an idiot and he was wise to stick to his task in linking McCain to Bush. He made no mistakes and gave no reason for the media to castigate him in his treatment of Palin. Ripping her to pieces would be like taking sweets off a child for a political heavyweight like him but its effect could have been counter-productive.
By simply not spectacularly screwing up, the Palin camp could claim a success of sorts. But a fearful America has another month to get to realise what a disasterous candidate the republican Party have offered them in Palin. McCain is not much better.

From what I hear, the kind public are saying of Palin that she was not as disastrous as expected, but seeing as funny Palin videos are staple these days that is saying nothing much. Biden is assumed to have "won" in so far as there was any contest.

It is difficult to see how the Republicans can do anything other than go down the tubes.

cactus flower wrote:

From what I hear, the kind public are saying of Palin that she was not as disastrous as expected, but seeing as funny Palin videos are staple these days that is saying nothing much. Biden is assumed to have "won" in so far as there was any contest.

It is difficult to see how the Republicans can do anything other than go down the tubes.

Call me hysterical if you wish, cactus flower, but in the 2-3 days going into the election, Obama needs to be 10-12 points ahead in the polls to have any chance. In congressional elections, a black candidate is 4-5 points ahead in the polls of his/her actual level of support. This is a Presidential election so I double that estimation of "reality gap". He has a good VP candidate beside him compared to the Republicans but never underestimate the ability of the Republican dirty tricks/opponent smearing machine.

Slim Buddha wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

From what I hear, the kind public are saying of Palin that she was not as disastrous as expected, but seeing as funny Palin videos are staple these days that is saying nothing much. Biden is assumed to have "won" in so far as there was any contest.

It is difficult to see how the Republicans can do anything other than go down the tubes.

Call me hysterical if you wish, cactus flower, but in the 2-3 days going into the election, Obama needs to be 10-12 points ahead in the polls to have any chance. In congressional elections, a black candidate is 4-5 points ahead in the polls of his/her actual level of support. This is a Presidential election so I double that estimation of "reality gap". He has a good VP candidate beside him compared to the Republicans but never underestimate the ability of the Republican dirty tricks/opponent smearing machine.

http://www.usaelectionpolls.com/

Try this Slimbuddha - Obama ahead 10% in 2 "battleground" States. Like you I would worry about dirty tricks, but look at the Spanish elections- a terrorist attack resulted in the Socialists getting in - it is too unpredicable, people in the States are wising up and aren't listening to the old siucra in the same way.

They could not bring Bush to the Republican conference because he is so unpopular. Over 2 million jobs have been lost under his government. Also, there were stories recently about a lot of people registering in the urban areas.

Do the Republicans even want to win this?

cactus flower wrote:

From what I hear, the kind public are saying of Palin that she was not as disastrous as expected, but seeing as funny Palin videos are staple these days that is saying nothing much. Biden is assumed to have "won" in so far as there was any contest.

It is difficult to see how the Republicans can do anything other than go down the tubes.

Despite abundant international criticism of him and to the wailing outcry of the international community, the Americans elected Bush for a second time. The big problem is that there is almost no choice in American presidential elections.

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/couric-palin-open/704042/

This comes via the inimitable Cedar Lounge where there are pre- and post- debate musings from WorldbyStorm that are worth reading.

The Palinism will no doubt be ubiquitous as the Bushism - once her detractors can figure out just which of her verbal inadequacies is pre-eminent. I just don't get the voting patterns of Americans.

Quote :

Do the Republicans even want to win this?

I wondered this too when Palin was selected. Maybe it's Bertie-ism on a bigger scale? Leave the job to the next guy to get screwed when the bad times get really bad...

Kate P wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

From what I hear, the kind public are saying of Palin that she was not as disastrous as expected, but seeing as funny Palin videos are staple these days that is saying nothing much. Biden is assumed to have "won" in so far as there was any contest.

It is difficult to see how the Republicans can do anything other than go down the tubes.

Despite abundant international criticism of him and to the wailing outcry of the international community, the Americans elected Bush for a second time. The big problem is that there is almost no choice in American presidential elections.

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/couric-palin-open/704042/

This comes via the inimitable Cedar Lounge where there are pre- and post- debate musings from WorldbyStorm that are worth reading.

The Palinism will no doubt be ubiquitous as the Bushism - once her detractors can figure out just which of her verbal inadequacies is pre-eminent. I just don't get the voting patterns of Americans.

Quote :

Do the Republicans even want to win this?

I wondered this too when Palin was selected. Maybe it's Bertie-ism on a bigger scale? Leave the job to the next guy to get screwed when the bad times get really bad...

This did cross my mind too Kate. America is in for a really rough time because the Republicans bankrupted not only the country but also the future of the next generation of US citizens. I lived in the US for nearly 4 years in the 80s (basically Reagan's second term) and this experience made me deeply distrustful of the Republican Party. The extent to which the Republicans have destroyed the institutions many Americans took for granted will only become apparent over the next 4 years or so. Everything is eaten away at the centre of government. Deregulation over a period of 28 years has made government impotent. A symbol of that impotence was the feeble and ultimately negligent response to Hurricane Katrina. Over 3 years after the event, there are still large areas of the greater New Orleans area left abandoned and boarded up.

If tax cuts, mainly for the rich, are the answer to everything, as Republican dogma attests, then government gets weaker and weaker. When the market "regulates" itself, and in so doing, holds sway over the economy and consequently, with the Republicans in power, over economic policy, government gets weaker. When the only thing that really matters to the Republicans, the military industrial complex, gets bigger and bigger budgets, initially at the expense of health, education and transport infrastructure and when that is eaten away, creating a mountain of debt owned by foreign governments, the government gets weaker still. Apart from "homeland security" and the Patriot Act, almost every mundane piece of legislation proposed and supported by the Republicans is designed to weaken government and transfer power to corporations. There is a strong anti-democratic strain running through that party best exemplified by the behaviour of Dick Cheney.

20 of the last 28 years has seen a Republican president and the drift to the right in US politics has been alarming. By implementing neo-liberal economics and taking the theory to the maximum extent, they have ruined the US economy. They mortgaged the future of the US and the US citizens of tomorrow to the hilt. They have bequeathed a mess of monumental proportions. Can the Democrats fix it? I am not sure because it will take people of courage to do it. There is so much to do and whoever gets in will need time to sort it out. Two terms minimum. Because during the first term, I believe, the unravelling of the US economy will continue. The bailout is a sticking plaster since nobody has addressed the problem, for instance, of the derivative sub-prime market, only the primary sub-prime market. It suits the Republicans to blame Wall Street for the mess, but really the Republican Party is as much if not more to blame. No wonder McCain is portraying himself as a maverick. The task for Obama and Biden is to fix firmly in the minds of Americans "The Republican Party are primarily responsible for this mess. McCain and Palin are Republicans standing for the Party responsible for this. Do you want this mess compounded?" And they must hammer this message home with all the force they can muster. Because it is the nature of the Republican Party to fight dirty and below the belt all the time. And there are sure to be lots of dirty tricks from the extensive catalogue of dirty tricks in the Republican Party cookbook put into play.
It will be a fascinating election campaign from here on in.

I am more and more convinced that Palin is a disastrous choice for Vice-Presidential candidate. John McCain and his campaign team exhibited a seriously poor level of judgement in selecting her which bodes unwell for how they will judge the manifold situations concomitant with controlling the executive branch of the US federal government.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

I am more and more convinced that Palin is a disastrous choice for Vice-Presidential candidate. John McCain and his campaign team exhibited a seriously poor level of judgement in selecting her which bodes unwell for how they will judge the manifold situations concomitant with controlling the executive branch of the US federal government.

I agree whole-heartedly, Ard. How do you assess the record of the Republicans and their contribution to the monumental mess the USA finds itself in now? You know my opinion.