[size=18][color=blue][b]Is Declan Ganley that Irish?[/b][/color][/size]


Sure he is from Irish descent, he lives and works in Ireland, but:

- he was born and educated in London
- he began his carreer in the City
- he made business in Eastern Europe not thanks to Irish influence
- his company sells confidential gear to the US military
- he is often seen in meeting of the Anglo-American establishment
- he announced he will campaign for the European elections in Britain too

If he had not been from Irish parents, I would have seen him as an agent of foreign influence in Ireland.

Well he has a certain history attaching to Ireland owing to his parents and I believe that his family live here (wife, kids etc). Whilst his emphasis might lie very much outside of Ireland, I don't think that discounts him as Irish.

I'm not one who is particularly interested in critically analysing the credentials of one's nationality. I believe it has caused plenty of harm in this world.

I would not analyse the credentials of one's nationality, if one was not working for the army of a foreign country, campaigning in yet another country, and trying to modify the international involvements of this place.

Which is quite exceptionnal. If you find an American or a Brit who does all that in Ireland, I pay you a box of beer.

I agree with you to an extent, but then again I entirely disagree with you.

I certainly think that Mr Ganley is a very peculiar character. I certainly agree that he does not have Ireland's best national interest at heart. However, I disagree that it makes him 'less Irish' than anyone else.

If we wish to construct some sort of nationalistic pseudo city-state based on ancient polities that is fair enough. But in the liberal democratic country that we live in, or at least aspire to, Mr Ganely is no worse than many others - he just has potentially alot more wealth and power at his disposal.

I don't think that makes him any way less Irish.

Had it not been for my uncle's balls he would be my aunt. The man is as Irish as I am and probably much prouder and done much more for his country than I have. But beside that, there are no degrees of Irishness, it is a binary state you either are or you are not. 

Irish is a state of mind, Irishness is a psychosis not a nationality, on St Patrick's Day we are all Irish, God is Irish and so is His mother!

My Mother is English, my Father's ancestors are planters and huguenots, I guess I should leave the room...

johnfás wrote:

My Mother is English, my Father's ancestors are planters and huguenots, I guess I should leave the room...

I'll grab my coat too, we can walk back to the 1650s together. 

Hmmm. At one of Declan Ganley's earlier speeches (in Kilkenny, where there was a very hostile FG audience) he began by stating his national credentials and towards the end of the speech he spoke about how we shouldn't give away what Irish people fought and died for. He feels that his accent leads people to wonder about his Irishness and therefore his right to an opinion.

He did the same in a later speech somewhere else but left out the bit about dying for Ireland.

I don't give a damn what country he professes to come from but he and his company owe explanations that they haven't given to the people they profess to be rescuing. That's the bit that bothers me.

When he realises that his credibility depends more on his ability to be consistent in his message, to honestly answer questions and to act from a place of integrity rather than on the simple fact that a particular country is named on his birthcert, I'll consider taking him seriously.

I must have phrased the title of the thread wrong. I meant "Is he an Irish politician or an Anglo-American agent?"

Of course I don't care who has parents from here and there.

It's very obvious that he himself and also the Libertas No To Lisbon campaign where heavly influenced by american political style. But the question of is he working for the CIA or whoever has been done and done to death. 

cookiemonster wrote:

It's very obvious that he himself and also the Libertas No To Lisbon campaign where heavly influenced by american political style. But the question of is he working for the CIA or whoever has been done and done to death.

And since when has been done to death ever settled a debate ?

Agent or not agent? The same type of arguments rage about SF and the British Intelligence Services.When someone is opening in the open political sphere in a democracy to a large extent imho it's only a small bit relevant to ask if they are technically an agent or not. What is far more interesting is to look at whose interests they are acting in.

Every politician represents the interests of one social class or another - or is visibly trying to do a balancing act between the two. Ganley cuddles up to every right wing anti-European group going, both the British eurosceptics and the Irish 'patriotic' right. He is a free market, Rumsfeld type deregulator in relation to the EU. In that respect, he you would expect him to have plenty in common with Sarkozy.

As has been pointed out here before, he may well be far closer to the U.K. than the U.S. in terms of allegiance. The European Elections will clear a lot up, one way or another.

I would be more interested at this stage to hear if the Irish left intend to run 'No' candidates in the European Elections.

For both Ganley and the Irish left, a referendum is delusional and elections risk being disappointing.

In a referendum, if you are on the winning side, you can always say that you "won" even if no voter paid attention to you.

The Referendum was lost, not won - the No side after all were not proposing anything other than rejection.

Elections are always a risk, and can only gain so much - but there is a distinct lack of vocal, principled voices of the left in the EP. It is a platform, if nothing else.

Well following the results it used to be McKenna and McDonald. Now it's McDonald alone.

If you're not happy with Marylou McDonald you could consider joining Patricia McKenna for her - likely - 2009 campaign.

tags: Declan Ganley on the Late Late Show Declan Ganley at Universités d’Eté du Mouvement Pour la France

Merged with Is Declan Ganley Irish ?

Declan Ganley at Universités d’Eté du Mouvement Pour la France

MPF's summerschool on Paris yesterday. For those of you who may be interested.

Quote :

Universités d’Eté du Mouvement Pour la France – 20, 21 september 2008 – 11 am

Discours de Declan Ganley, Président de Libertas

Mesdames, Messieurs, Chers amis,

You are Europeans as I am a European

I am proud to be an Irishman and a European

Indeed, we are all proud to be European.

But when will Brussels have pride and trust in the citizens of Europe ? Because until they have trust in the citizens of Europe, logically those citizens cannot have trust in them.

In the past few days, in the statements and actions of the combined defeated Yes side in both Dublin and Brussels, it is becoming clear to me that it is the determined intention of the unelected, unaccountable Brussels elite and the servile yes men that seek their favour, while failing to fulfill their solemn duty to their own electorates, to categorically reject once again the voice of a sovereign people raised against the antidemocratic draft of the European constitution, or as they now prefer to call it, the Lisbon Treaty.

In Ireland sooner or later, and probably sooner, in a move and using tactics reminiscent of anti-democrats everywhere, there will be a second referendum designed to produce the only result acceptable to Brussels. Their pre-referendum lying has already begun. A second referendum for which there is no mandate in Ireland, is not democracy it in fact mocks democracy. (Perhaps we should have a new word for this Brussels phenomenon; it is “re-mockracy” in the making).

We are here today from Lyon, Paris, Marseille, La Vendée and from our villages, cities and towns across France and indeed this Union of ours, I say our union, not theirs, not of the unelected, unaccountable elites but OUR European Union, the peoples, the hundreds of millions of individuals that are Europe. This Union is OURS! And we the people must be empowered to decide the future of Europe and our role as individuals within it.

To be empowered as an individual, one must have a voice, to have a voice one must have a vote, it is our fundamental right as Europeans to individually, NOT just collectively, but individually to choose our futures and our leaders.

As I pointed out to President Sarkozy a few weeks ago : “le Traité de Lisbonne est mort”.

According to its own rules, the European Union cannot now ratify this rehashed Constitution. This, a Constitution already rejected at the ballot box by your own countrymen and women and those of the Netherlands just three short years ago.

And what has changed in those three short years, what ?

The unelected, unaccountable European elites willfully ignored the democratic will of the peoples of France and the Netherlands and now they are doing the same to Ireland.


Those elites conspired to change only those elements of the Constitution which would again trigger referendums in member states.

Those elites decided that they know what's best for all of us and that we do not need to be consulted any further.

And now, in Ireland, the quiet men of Brussels seek to crush the final free voice of a people who were the only citizens of Europe to have their voices heard, and most heartbreakingly they conspire and connive with the mediocre so called leaders of those people. To have those leaders betray their own people.

Is this really how Brussels proposes to redress the democratic deficit at the heart of the European project?

Is this really how we Europeans will build a strong, sustainable and successful future for the European Union?

Is this really how we can turn the most successful peace project of modern times into the most successful economic, democratic and social achievement of the 21st century and beyond?

Is it ? No !

Exactly how stupid do they think we the people of Europe are?

Why do they fear the almost half a billion citizens of Europe so much? Why do they so despise the people?

Why are they not as proud of those citizens as those citizens are proud of being European?

I am so very proud of the people of Ireland for stopping the Lisbon Treaty in its tracks and for giving our fellow Europeans this opportunity to really think about where we need Europe to go, how we should embrace the future.

It is clear that in order to succeed; the European Union must be built from the sovereign citizen up; not from the elite down.

If Europe is to have a new Constitution / Treaty, call it what you will, it must have the legitimacy of the support of its citizens. If it is to gain that legitimacy the citizens of Europe, all of them, must have their say.

Such a Constitution / Treaty needs to be upfront and honest in what it seeks to achieve.

I accept it must be ambitious, it must be Just…… it must be readable, it must speak to European hearts by showing that it regards and respects them as individuals in whatever communities, cultures, nations, or identities that they hold dear. It must provide for democracy, accountability and transparency at the heart of European governance.

Rule one of a new Fundamental Treaty/Constitution, might be that if it is more than twenty five pages, then the answer is no. Such a Treaty must then be put to the vote in referenda; right across Europe and the people will grant or withhold their approval.

Their wishes will be final because it is from the people that all political power and legitimacy devolves. It is an important part of the very essence of our freedom. If the people say no it’s back to the drawing board, Brussels doesn’t get to keep asking the same stupid question.

Here we are in France, a nation whose very name derives from the meaning of freedom, of liberty.

France, the eldest daughter of Europe, this great corner of the earth, through the ages.

From Gaul, Brittany, Burgundy, Vendee and Normandy, the Gauls, the Franks - the French people - have always lived and breathed that spirit of liberty, of justice and of courage in the face of adversity.

France is Europe's beating heart.

And France can be the keystone to building Europe's future.

It is here that Europe's future must be decided and guaranteed for its citizens, for our future generations and for the survival of our civilisation.

It has been France’s role through the ages, to rise to the great challenges that faced Europe.

In 1940, a great Frenchman stood alone on a foreign soil and said No to enemies of Liberty.

With his great victory, Charles de Gaulle, that noble son of France helped secure the hopes of Western Civilisation and kept a candle burning for those principles which were to underpin European culture for future generations. Principles rooted in our ancient foundations in Greek democracy, the Roman Republic and Judeo-Christian values.

The precious dignity of the individual, the rule of law, the value of hard work and sacrifice, the rejection of slavery of the body and of the mind.

And, most importantly of all, the value and power of love and respect for one's fellow man.

One of many places we can look to see that respect being represented is in the democratic process, where the people are engaged in the decision making process in the most fundamental way. It is that they, the people, who are sovereign and all political power derives from them as individuals, delegated to elected representatives through the ballot box. Democracy, it’s a good idea the French people, in their wisdom, figured that out quite some time ago.

Other parts of the world can rightfully congratulate themselves on their recent preparedness to promote women into positions of power.

In France a young woman from Orléans donned her armour for truth, justice, faith and France almost 600 years ago.

The truth is that France is a place where good ideas have existed and been championed for a long, long time.

Like Joan of Arc, like Charles de Gaulle, I believe that for France, and for Europe, our best days still lie ahead of us.

Among those many good French ideas was the French people's courage and foresight in saying No to the European Constitution.

What the unaccountable elite in Brussels has failed to understand as they try to define Europe through ever-growing piles of directives, treaties, rules and regulations is that Treaties are only written on paper.

They are not written on the hearts of men and women.

That Europe, in the current Brussels variant, has failed to speak to the hearts of Europeans is clear to us all.

But the fact that this failure, if continued is highly likely to result in the overall failure of the European project needs to be shouted from the mountaintops across Europe.

The good news is that it can be saved.

It can be saved by opening the windows and letting the light of democracy, transparency and accountability shine into every dark corner of the Brussels establishment. That’s the kind of Europe Schuman and Monnet would have wanted.

Indeed that champion of the European Union and great Frenchman, Jean Monnet, pointed out that:

"People only accept change when they are faced with necessity, and only recognise necessity when a crisis is upon them"

With the current Brussels Elite’s denial of democracy their self imposed illegitimacy, their impotence in the face of outside threats, their contempt for the voice of the sovereign individual, the looming possibility of an economic crisis not seen for over half a century. And worst of all our failure as a civilization to make the most important investment and manifestation of all hope, having enough children, we are now reaching that crisis and change is not only necessary but inevitable. It is inevitable because we must and will rise to these challenges, we can no longer ignore them, they will not be fixed by someone else, they must be grappled with and overcome by this generation, here and now.


In June of next year at the European Parliament elections, the people of France will have their say on the Lisbon Treaty - you have already said No, its time to say No again to the same anti-democratic formula and to demand an accountable, democratic Europe. Next years European elections can be the referendum that the people of Europe have been denied – there can be a clear choice, candidates that support and will not stop the antidemocratic Lisbon Treaty – and those that will, doing so from a positive pro European perspective championing democratic accountability at the heart of the union.

Let France lead again, say No to anti-democracy - Join with us in helping to place France at the heart
of the challenge to return Europe to those to whom it really belongs : it’s almost half a billion
citizens and their aspirations for their children, grandchildren and our future generations.

Let us step forward together, with courage and confidence and say Good Morning Europe, that this
new century belongs to us, to the people of Europe, that once again we have what it takes to lead the
world.

Let’s invite the world to watch and witness a new European Renaissance, in economy, in industry, in learning, in championing the value of the individual and the liberty of mankind.

Let us take up the mantle here in France and recognize that it falls to all and every single one of us, to this generation, to wake Europe from our slumber and say as Churchill said for European democracy when its flame was almost extinguished “We will not go quietly into the night”.

For this is France and we are the people of Europe, we know where we came from we can and will define a new vision, let us fulfill that destiny, rise to the challenge, say no to the antidemocratic Brussels of the Lisbon Treaty and Yes to a democratic, transparent and accountable Europe that can lead the world to a place worth going to.

Non à la faillite démocratique du traité de Lisbonne,

Oui à une Europe des démocraties, transparente, et responsable

Une Europe qui illumine et étonne le monde…

Vive la France

Vive l’Irlande

Vive l'Europe

I'm told it was extrordinarily well recieved and that the crowd were chanting "Libertas! Libertas!" At the end of the speech.

I'm sure they were. Now it merely remains to turn the attractive rhetoric into a plan of action, and we're good to go.

Also, I note that the reference to standing in the Euros is unqualified.

thats a great speech Cookie - almost Obama like in its soaring rhetoric - and its complete lack of detail.

My difficulty is that I still have no idea what Declan Ganley wants - or doesn't want - and this is important.

Its all very well to say he wants a clear, transparent, democratic Europe - Shit I'd settle for a clear transparent democratic County Carlow at the moment - let alone Europe - but I need details - need beef to go with the rhetoric to allow me reconcile the quite contradictory stances and statements he is making on Europe.

The main fundemental issue here is - does he want a Federal Europe- or not - do we (Europeans) want a federal Europe or not? - thats where it is all coming down too - because if you want a fully democratic ,fully accountable directly to the citizen - European Union a la USA if I read him right- then you will have to give those institutions far more power than they have now and clearly relegate the national institutions to a subsidary regional role - and Im not all that sure that that is what the citizens of the 27 nations actually want at all.

Anyway - I still stand by my statement - that if you got all the various elements of the european opinion together - both the yes and nos and not sures over the lisbon treaty - got them all to put down their concerns,wishes,refusals etc etc and got them all to compromise a little (no agreement on anything is possible without compromise) - you would end up with an agreement that would be very close to what the Lisbon Treaty actually proposed - an union of independent sovereign nation states co-operating at various different levels for their own mutual self interest.

A Federal Europe - Forget it - not for another 100 years - a complete non-runner - purely for fantasists - the only way a federal Europe will come about will be in the presence of a massive clear and present danger to all Europeans together -scary enough to make them forget all this trival nationalistic bullshit and get together for mutual self preservation - an unfortunate fact - but true - until then national issues and delusions of national sovereignty will reign supreme.

Obamaesque... damning with faint praise!

I don't think a federal Europe is a runner either and certainly the MPF would spill their wine at the very though of it.

One may eventually want a federal Europe, but like you say it wouldn't happen overnight, it would take decades if not centuries.

Edo wrote:

thats a great speech Cookie - almost Obama like in its soaring rhetoric - and its complete lack of detail.

My difficulty is that I still have no idea what Declan Ganley wants - or doesn't want - and this is important.

Its all very well to say he wants a clear, transparent, democratic Europe - Shit I'd settle for a clear transparent democratic County Carlow at the moment - let alone Europe - but I need details - need beef to go with the rhetoric to allow me reconcile the quite contradictory stances and statements he is making on Europe.

The main fundemental issue here is - does he want a Federal Europe- or not - do we (Europeans) want a federal Europe or not? - thats where it is all coming down too - because if you want a fully democratic ,fully accountable directly to the citizen - European Union a la USA if I read him right- then you will have to give those institutions far more power than they have now and clearly relegate the national institutions to a subsidary regional role - and Im not all that sure that that is what the citizens of the 27 nations actually want at all.

Anyway - I still stand by my statement - that if you got all the various elements of the european opinion together - both the yes and nos and not sures over the lisbon treaty - got them all to put down their concerns,wishes,refusals etc etc and got them all to compromise a little (no agreement on anything is possible without compromise) - you would end up with an agreement that would be very close to what the Lisbon Treaty actually proposed - an union of independent sovereign nation states co-operating at various different levels for their own mutual self interest.

A Federal Europe - Forget it - not for another 100 years - a complete non-runner - purely for fantasists - the only way a federal Europe will come about will be in the presence of a massive clear and present danger to all Europeans together -scary enough to make them forget all this trival nationalistic bullshit and get together for mutual self preservation - an unfortunate fact - but true - until then national issues and delusions of national sovereignty will reign supreme.

That pretty well describes the process that happened/was meant to happen in the drafting of the Constitution: there was very extensive consultation. The reasons why that consultation did not produce a successful compromise were dual 1) many people who took part say that the issues that were raised were brushed over and those leading the process ignored findings of the consultation and 2) there were some fundamental disagreements between the participants in consultation. A lot of people would say, I'm sure, that the Constitution was the best compromise that could have been come up with, in trying to meet the wishes of the diverse consultees and the political and administrative layer that runs the EU.

That raises the question of whether a search for a compromise can ever be successful and whether instead a clear and transparent model that could win the majority of EU voters would be a more realistic, and better, option. The Reform Treaty was a mish mash and barely comprehensible, at the one time over-detailed and unclear. People fell back on the intuition that their were not respected by the process, and that it could therefore not be in their best interests.

Ibis - I came across this description of the EU decision-making process which appears quite neat. Do you think it is full and accurate?

http://www.delmkd.ec.europa.eu/en/europe-a-to-z/decision-making-process.htm

Part I - overall post is too big for one shot

Well CF - thats a fair point - is this the end of the road for the European project? - or is it the end of Irelands sojurn in the EU?

Im just finding extremely hard to nail down exactly where Declan Ganley is coming from - Im genuinely interested in knowing.

Libertas Mission statement-charter

http://www.libertas.org/content/view/61/74/

Quote :

Having regard to Europe’s traditional values of liberty, truth, justice, peace, democracy, tolerance, reason, innovation, family, dignity and the rule of law, forged through our ancient history anchored in Greek democracy, the Roman Republic, the foundations of Christianity and the Enlightenment;


Assert that all citizens have a duty to promote these values concurrent with their right to private property, equality of opportunity, freedom of religion and to pursue their welfare and happiness and that of future generations by participating in the open market for goods, services and labour;


Acknowledge the European Union’s role in safeguarding for its citizens unprecedented peace and prosperity for half a century and its potential to continue to do so for the liberty and security of future generations;


Deplore the democratic deficit and lack of accountability inherent in the Union’s current political structures and its economic underachievement; and


Hereby Pledge to create a popular movement that, by means of public examination, probing debate and discourse, speaks to the hearts and imaginations of Europeans by actively engaging citizens, institutions and governments in the critical debate on the future of Europe and its place in the world for the good of all its peoples.

Anno Domini 2007

Lovely lovely stuff - how could anybody except a complete ubernationalist xenophobe disagree with any of it - but it is totally vague -can meaning anything to anybody - and Im sure if you subsitute "Korea" and "Koreans" for" Europe and Europeans in the text you wouldn't end up a million miles away from the preamble to the constitution of the peoples socialist republic of North Korea - its that vague and wishy washy.

So I kept on going

This also in the "about libertas" section

http://www.libertas.org/content/view/147/90/

Quote :

With the summit ended, everyone will claim victory
Written by Dr Jana Hybášková, MEP
Sunday, 24 June 2007
Dr Jana Hybášková, MEP

The EU Summit in Brussels indeed brought an important and positive advance of European integration. The unexpected became reality - the EU will gain a legal personality, one subject under law. It is an exceptional step forward - from the point of international law, international relations, international power and foreign policy. I am very glad that even the eurosceptic Czech government agreed with this important step and the ruling ODS was thus able to prove the basic principle of EU politics - speak differently in Brussels and at home.

Legal personality bases future possibility of one joint UN Security Council seat for the entire EU. EU will be able to have a united stand in affairs like the Kosovo question. Why do we need this? Not only because of the relations with the USA, but also, and especially with the Russia. EU:Russia would be now 1:1, not 27:1. The same towards China. The same towards Iran.

Moreover, thanks to the switching of labels will Europe have one foreign policy coordinator, whatever should be his title, since 2009. The twin-house Solana-Ferrero-Waldner will disappear, number of bureaucrats will diminish, the EU foreign policy will be more united.

The third major advance is the issue of qualified voting. It was necessary to retreat before the Polish pressure, but the whole process was unblocked and is negotiable. It is glad that also the Czechs helped in this process. The Nice System will be valid at least until 2014, but a voting mechanism that should be acceptable, pleasant and comfortable for everyone will enter in force later. This will be a key move forwards - the European League of States will become a confederation. I am very gladly surprised that even the Czech government accepted these victories on the way to common Europe. It accepted the switch of basic competencies; it is more pragmatic than ideological.

The British succeeded in killing the obligatory charter of basic rights and freedoms. Let them keep their liberties. The French made the free trade disappear from the preamble, but it stays within the text. The Dutch got higher participation of the national parliaments. The Czechs received a promise of better definition of legal relations between the EU and the Member States, which is already happening and is a good thing.

We do not have the flag, the anthem and the position of minister of foreign affairs, we have also missed the word “constitution” and most of countries will thus skip referenda. Just the Danish and Irish seem now to vote on the new treaty.

However, I do not call “hallelujah”! The summit was not a victory for those who wish really common Europe. Common law, common migration model, common energy policy, common services market, or a single European patent, European railways, or European mobile operator. The European enlargement of a club from 15 on 27 is costing something. As the Polish dance has shown, it is necessary to have some time for understanding the common principles.

The summit has not fulfilled the most important thing - it has not brought the common European constitution (with a small “c”). It has not brought a common preamble on common values, it has not created a truly European and accountable European government, European democratic control by the European Parliament, it has not clearly stated the division of powers between the national and European parliaments. It has not helped to finally destroy the meaningless borders between the first, second and third pillar, it has not created a ground for new, very necessary common policies.

The summit is a realistic awakening. But in the first place it is a challenge: it keeps open door. The necessary is told in the context: Europe has moved a tiny step forward, but in the same moment is the usual compromise between the head of states the most slobbered of all. We need much of energy, flexibility, new understanding, time and the will of politicians for a real, serious constitutional change. I trust we have these.

From my reading of this - the Lisbon compromise was not the clear and present danger that Libertas portrayed it to be - rather an unhealthy compromise that does not move fast enough and does not bring in enough constitutional change to ..............................where?

Given the above and Mr Ganley's recent speech above - Im in a quandary - Im finding it hard to reconcile these and the ubernationalist,scorched earth, take no prisoners,dance with the devil, whatever it takes approach that was used in the Lisbon Treaty campaign. If libertas is the Pro-European entity it proclaims itself to be - then outright lies and misinformation produced by the group have gone a great way to poisoning the atmosphere to a rational debate on Europe (as opposed to Irelands place or non place within that entity) and may come back to haunt Libertas - if that is - they are the pro united free market Europeans that they or he (Well lets be honest here - the top boys and girls at libertas are dropping like flies now that Lisbon has been defeated - a case of the end of realpolik on the No side?) protrays them to be?? - that is the big question.

Lisbon - or the treaty that failed to be adopted or amended into the Irish Constitution last june - is now officially dead - the ideas procedures and reforms proposed by it are far from dead - we are in new territory here - whether we (Ireland) will be accomodated in whatever emerges in the aftermath of this failure to ratify - that remains to be seen - watch this space as they say.

In light of this - I want to know what Mr Ganley and Libertas's positive alternative proposals to Lisbon are? -

Please dont come back and tell us:


http://www.libertas.org/content/view/312/127/

Quote :

Survey offers no quick solution despite Irish Gov attempts to find one
Written by Libertas
Wednesday, 10 September 2008
The Irish Government has spent a considerable amount of money conducting polling in the aftermath of the no vote in the Lisbon referendum in June.

The Vote No is not an Irish problem, it is a European problem, and there are no quick solutions to this, despite the attempts by the Irish government to find one.

It seems that whilst the Government wants to spend money looking at the different reasons people voted No, that simple fact is one which is government is trying to ignore. The people said no to the Lisbon treaty.

The only country offered a referendum on this treaty rejected it - that is the one message this government do not want to know about.

Alright - and as an alternative and to give the Government a hand - you would propose that we............................................????????????????????? - not good enough mate.


This is vaguely better

http://www.libertas.org/content/view/308/127/

Quote :

If Europe is to have a new treaty/Constitution, it should be short and understandable, the aim should be 20 or 25 pages, it should be upfront and honest about what it seeks to achieve and that all Europe's citizens must all get a vote on it.

We need a strong, respected and credible Europe and the only way to achieve that is by ensuring that if we confer more power on Brussels, those exercising that power need to be accountable at a ballot box and present themselves before the electorate to seek a mandate, just as he did when he was elected President of France.

The most worrying thing about this meeting is the fact that clearly the message is not being heard, perhaps not even being heard at all, and that's what makes the meeting somewhat pointless. We have said no. Libertas is still unsure if that democratic vote will be respected by the elites in Brussels, or Paris.

The future of Europe needs to be based on the principles of democracy for all its citizens, and in the only referendum on this treaty, the people asked said no. Brussels needs to take account of this, listen to the people of Ireland and all of Europe, and ensure that what happens next fully respects the principles of democracy that we Irish fought so hard for.

We come back to this again and again and again - this "principles of democracy, accountability in Brussels" etc etc - The only people who take and make decisions in the EU are A) the Council of Ministers and B) the European Parliament - and the last time I looked they were all democractically elected by their citizens to make decisions on their behalf - the Commission are civil servants - they write up and propose legislation - they do not decide it - there is no democratic deficit here - unless you really really feel that the commission is more powerful than the people who select it and approve it (the council of ministers and the EP) - if you want to directly elect the commission - well then you will give them a mandate - and thus real excutive powers and then we are into a totally new ball game then - are we a union of independent sovereign states pooling our sovereignty via the standard acceptable international manner (ie intergovernmental) or are a full on Federal state with all that will flow from that?

That aside I really would like libertas and Mr Ganley to elaborate from the standard

Quote :

The lack of democracy, accountability and transparency in the European Union are not addressed by the Lisbon Treaty and its lack of legitimacy threatens the future of the EU.

Please point these out in a clear and consise and honest manner - and please tell us in a simple straightforward (well you can do it a complicated manner if you wish - I'll read it - but you might have problems with your Daily mail readership) manner what exactly is your proposal to rectify this and what your vision of a clear transparent and democratic Europe is and how it will operate.

Until he does that - I cannot take him seriously and will still have my suspicions of Ganley as an agent provocateur with a mission to foment disunity on behalf of others that cannot be ruled out - Im not into conspiracy theories as a rule - but until Mr Ganley clearly puts his cards on the table as to what and where exactly he stands - that issue will not go away.

Part II

He should do it - he would gain far more respect and would be taken very seriously than he is now

particularly as he appears to believe he got a mandate to pronounce on all matters European from the referendum win ( I would take issue with that - but hey every dog deserves their day) - like below

http://www.libertas.org/content/view/311/127/

Quote :

Reacting to news that the Kremlin's heavy armour, infantry and air forces had invaded the independent and democratic European country of Georgia, Libertas chairman Declan Ganley this afternoon called on EU leaders to unite and show strong an unequivocal support for Georgia's democratically-elected government.

Tensions in the region have been rising since April's NATO summit meeting which barred Ukraine and Georgia from the membership process following objections to their memberships by the governments of France and Germany who had promised to 're-examine' the possibility of eventual membership in December.

Ganley, who spent his early business career working in the countries of the former Soviet Bloc said: "The rejection by certain of their fellow Europeans, of Georgian membership of NATO and the deliberate slow rolling of their intention to join the the European Union, sent a message to a boldly assertive Kremlin, that Georgia is 'in play'. There are a few European leaders who might consider tonight how they are going to retrieve a situation where by their lack of leadership and vision, they have effectively thrown Georgia to the wolves."


Ganley went on to say,

"The appropriate response for the European Union is to call for the Kremlin to immediately withdraw its forces from Georgia – an independent European country that will hopefully one day join the Union".

"Furthermore, and very importantly, the EU should move to put Ukraine on an immediate fast track to membership of the Union as a strong signal that democratic and free countries in Europe will be welcomed into the European family."

"Europe's leaders must stop dragging their feet and making excuses as to why European countries like Ukraine and Georgia cannot be admitted to the EU. If Europe cannot at a minimum guarantee freedom and democracy for people living in Europe then what's it for?".

"It is noteworthy that when the Georgian President Saakashvili this afternoon appealed to the world for help, he was flanked on one side by the Georgian flag and on the other by the flag of the European Union. Who are the elite in Brussels to tell the Europeans of Georgia that they are somehow not European?"

"These are the basics of European democracy. Europe must not allow another Balkan or Sudeten-like debacle to take place as the EU's political leaders wring their hands at their summer resorts while waiting for Washington to ultimately decide what to do. A strong Russia must and will be a friend and ally of the European Union but for this to work, leaders need to draw the line clearly on what is and is not acceptable in a democratic Europe."

"This situation is the price of not placing democracy, accountability, vision and courage at the heart of the European project" said Ganley.

Takes some balls and a serious brass neck to come out with a statement like that ,particularly after playing an intrinsic role in defeating a treaty that was proposing , abeit in a hesitant and totally voluntary fashion - the formation of the very defense and foreign policy apparatus that he is chiding Europe for not having - again you notice the usual "democracy,accountability" shite at the bottom of this - the actual makeup of this is unknown to all of us except Ganley and maybe Mrs Ganley if he talks in his sleep - or I wonder was it written by John McCains speechwriters?

Time to deliver Mr Ganley - time to deliver - take the time to come up a coherent alternative that to what we have now and be realistic enough that it will fly - stop all this "Elites" nonsense - a bad import from the USA where if you have an iq greater than that of a duck you are immediately suspect in the eyes of at least 50% of the population -and look where that has got them - we need intelligent smart people at the top of our governmental and state structures - do this and I will definitely listen to you and give you the respect that you crave - maybe not agreeing with everything - but I will respect your opinions and your courage in actually defining what you actually want to do and achieve and a lot of people will do the same.

Well Mr Ganley - over to you. ( Or Maybe Cookie Monster might care to enlighten us - seriously!)

I put myself to the trouble back in the Spring of reading every word I could find written by Mr. Ganley. His main critique of the EU back over the years was excessive regulation. Again, his speeches could have been written by McCain.

His rush to the defence of Saakashvili and the South Ossetian fiasco is not a bit surprising.

I see Mr. Ganley as an operator, not a politician.

Some more from the brain of Declan "The Operator" Ganley.

Quote :

Ahead of a conference of presidents meeting this morning to discuss the funding of Irish anti-Lisbon group Libertas, its founder, businessman Declan Ganley, puts his case to MEPs.

“It has been interesting to note the response of some MEPs to my country’s overwhelming rejection of the anti-democratic Lisbon treaty. It seems some of them were surprised, which only goes to prove just how removed they are from the real world in which we citizens of Europe occupy.

On 2 September, I had the honour of visiting the European parliament. I made the trip for several reasons, the most important of which was to do my small part as a private citizen in driving home the message that my own government has seemingly not had the courage to do. That is to firmly remind the institutions of Brussels that under the rules of the EU, the Lisbon treaty is dead.

Again, for clarity, in case anyone is unsure, the Irish people, who in my country are sovereign, have made their decision and the decision is no. If Brussels is to hold on to any pretence of holding democracy among its most cherished principles, it must accept the Irish people’s decision as final. It is the third rejection of the anti-democratic formula of Giscard d’Estaing’s European constitution. First the French said no, second the Netherlands, and now the Irish.

Of course, we all know that if there was a full and open debate and referendum on the Lisbon treaty in any of your member states, it would be roundly defeated in most, and not just by the usual suspects. As an ardent pro-European, I would point out to you that the Irish people are amongst the most pro-European people in Europe.

Most EU citizens do not hold the union in such high regard. The defeat in other referendums would be greater than in Ireland, which, of course, is why there were not any other referendums.

The problem with this approach is that Brussels is very rapidly squandering the remaining trust that Europe’s citizens have in it. Why? Because Brussels doesn’t trust those same citizens to make their own choices, democratically, on the major questions facing Europe...

The rest at theparliament.com