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 New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?

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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:31 pm

I am confused by Libertas. They seem to have had a lot of time and money to prepare for the campaign yet their strategy has been fairly amateur and distasteful.

I also don't think they intend to just 'go away' after the campaign but I can't see them making any kind of political breakthrough.
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:39 pm

the posters which try to bypass the mainstream media discussion (and scare the plebs) are expensive.
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:44 pm

they need meps,ones already in the parliment, which one do they have links with, are they any that would swap to a libertas party.

are there any conservative uk ones, or just far right nationalist types?
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:53 pm

unaligned wrote:
I am confused by Libertas. They seem to have had a lot of time and money to prepare for the campaign yet their strategy has been fairly amateur and distasteful.

I also don't think they intend to just 'go away' after the campaign but I can't see them making any kind of political breakthrough.

This is fairly typical of Ganley's business approach - ad hoc cheap and cheerful combined with fancy sounding names. On the scale of business he looks for he only needs to pull it off occasionally to make a big killing. He is not afraid of flyers.
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:26 am

WorldbyStorm wrote:
I've commented on this thread over on the CLR because I think party formation and the Libertas situation in particular are very interesting. How important is it in the scheme of things? It could be as you propose ibis that Libertas is a significant newcomer to the Irish political scene, but I tend to doubt that for the moment. Without a base it's going nowhere, and I can't see a base yet. Maybe post-Lisbon one will appear, but...

Yes, I'm not 100% convinced myself, but as I say they have the money to hang on in there for the long run.

WorldbyStorm wrote:
cactus flower, what you say about not paying it any heed unless you'd read about it on p.ie may well be a very important insight into the reality, as distinct from the superheated rhetoric, of Libertas and its impact more broadly. I'd love to hear some statistics on name recognition...

They will be vastly better recognised after the referendum than they were before. It's a very handy launch-pad.
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:20 pm

ibis wrote:
WorldbyStorm wrote:
I've commented on this thread over on the CLR because I think party formation and the Libertas situation in particular are very interesting. How important is it in the scheme of things? It could be as you propose ibis that Libertas is a significant newcomer to the Irish political scene, but I tend to doubt that for the moment. Without a base it's going nowhere, and I can't see a base yet. Maybe post-Lisbon one will appear, but...

Yes, I'm not 100% convinced myself, but as I say they have the money to hang on in there for the long run.

WorldbyStorm wrote:
cactus flower, what you say about not paying it any heed unless you'd read about it on p.ie may well be a very important insight into the reality, as distinct from the superheated rhetoric, of Libertas and its impact more broadly. I'd love to hear some statistics on name recognition...

They will be vastly better recognised after the referendum than they were before. It's a very handy launch-pad.

That's very true. But a lot depends on their 'depth' as an organisation i.e. how many people they can field. It's something that also interests me, for example in the UK there is a crowd called Comment on Reproductive Ethics which has, as far as I can determine, only a handful of people attached to it, and yet every time the media need someone to give a socially conservative view on any issue concerning that area out comes CORE and their spokesperson (the wonderfully named) Josephine Quintavalle. I have no problem with her viewpoint, in the sense that she is fully entitled to it, although I would disagree with it on many issues, but what strikes me is that despite the size of CORE they have a commanding media presence in these debates. C4, BBC, all call her up to provide 'balance' in a debate despite the fact that CORE represents effectively no-one but itself directly. But that isn't what Libertas seem to want. They appear to want to leverage it up higher. They'll presumably need more people.
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:54 pm

WorldbyStorm wrote:
ibis wrote:
WorldbyStorm wrote:
I've commented on this thread over on the CLR because I think party formation and the Libertas situation in particular are very interesting. How important is it in the scheme of things? It could be as you propose ibis that Libertas is a significant newcomer to the Irish political scene, but I tend to doubt that for the moment. Without a base it's going nowhere, and I can't see a base yet. Maybe post-Lisbon one will appear, but...

Yes, I'm not 100% convinced myself, but as I say they have the money to hang on in there for the long run.

WorldbyStorm wrote:
cactus flower, what you say about not paying it any heed unless you'd read about it on p.ie may well be a very important insight into the reality, as distinct from the superheated rhetoric, of Libertas and its impact more broadly. I'd love to hear some statistics on name recognition...

They will be vastly better recognised after the referendum than they were before. It's a very handy launch-pad.

That's very true. But a lot depends on their 'depth' as an organisation i.e. how many people they can field. It's something that also interests me, for example in the UK there is a crowd called Comment on Reproductive Ethics which has, as far as I can determine, only a handful of people attached to it, and yet every time the media need someone to give a socially conservative view on any issue concerning that area out comes CORE and their spokesperson (the wonderfully named) Josephine Quintavalle. I have no problem with her viewpoint, in the sense that she is fully entitled to it, although I would disagree with it on many issues, but what strikes me is that despite the size of CORE they have a commanding media presence in these debates. C4, BBC, all call her up to provide 'balance' in a debate despite the fact that CORE represents effectively no-one but itself directly. But that isn't what Libertas seem to want. They appear to want to leverage it up higher. They'll presumably need more people.

It says on the tin that they want to form a political party (Pan-european).
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:29 am

cactus flower wrote:
WorldbyStorm wrote:
ibis wrote:
WorldbyStorm wrote:
I've commented on this thread over on the CLR because I think party formation and the Libertas situation in particular are very interesting. How important is it in the scheme of things? It could be as you propose ibis that Libertas is a significant newcomer to the Irish political scene, but I tend to doubt that for the moment. Without a base it's going nowhere, and I can't see a base yet. Maybe post-Lisbon one will appear, but...

Yes, I'm not 100% convinced myself, but as I say they have the money to hang on in there for the long run.

WorldbyStorm wrote:
cactus flower, what you say about not paying it any heed unless you'd read about it on p.ie may well be a very important insight into the reality, as distinct from the superheated rhetoric, of Libertas and its impact more broadly. I'd love to hear some statistics on name recognition...

They will be vastly better recognised after the referendum than they were before. It's a very handy launch-pad.

That's very true. But a lot depends on their 'depth' as an organisation i.e. how many people they can field. It's something that also interests me, for example in the UK there is a crowd called Comment on Reproductive Ethics which has, as far as I can determine, only a handful of people attached to it, and yet every time the media need someone to give a socially conservative view on any issue concerning that area out comes CORE and their spokesperson (the wonderfully named) Josephine Quintavalle. I have no problem with her viewpoint, in the sense that she is fully entitled to it, although I would disagree with it on many issues, but what strikes me is that despite the size of CORE they have a commanding media presence in these debates. C4, BBC, all call her up to provide 'balance' in a debate despite the fact that CORE represents effectively no-one but itself directly. But that isn't what Libertas seem to want. They appear to want to leverage it up higher. They'll presumably need more people.

It says on the tin that they want to form a political party (Pan-european).

True, but they'll still need a heap of people ultimately and I just don't see where they're going to come from. I'd add that they can't really mine the old PD vote either for them, except at the fringes because the PDs were far from a Europhobic party in any meaningful sense...
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:32 am

The assumption there is that Libertas are a Europhobic organisation - do you believe that to be the case, WBS?
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:42 am

Kate P wrote:
The assumption there is that Libertas are a Europhobic organisation - do you believe that to be the case, WBS?

Kate P - you were at a Libertas meeting recently - what kind of people were enthusiastic joiners - young, old, rich, poor ????
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:10 am

Kate P wrote:
The assumption there is that Libertas are a Europhobic organisation - do you believe that to be the case, WBS?


Well, certainly euro-critical. In a way they remind me of the further left position whereby they want Europe, or so they say, just not this Europe. Now that's not an invalid position IMHO, but, it does really require such a reworking that I can't see it as feasible politics.
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:15 am

cactus flower wrote:
Kate P wrote:
The assumption there is that Libertas are a Europhobic organisation - do you believe that to be the case, WBS?

Kate P - you were at a Libertas meeting recently - what kind of people were enthusiastic joiners - young, old, rich, poor ????

Working class, I'd have thought. There were suits and they were interested too but not as engaged as the guys who wanted to set up.
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:16 am

And what were the issues that grabbed them ? Did they bring their own stuff up?
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:18 am

It was bizarre - they were telling the guys at the top table what to do and what not to do to ensure a No vote.

One of ideas was to harness the women's vote.

Re issues - and my notes are downstairs so you'll have to do without them tonight, but the main issues were workers rights and sovereignty, afaik.
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:22 am

Will you bring the notes tomorrow?
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:30 pm

ibis wrote:
WorldbyStorm wrote:
I've commented on this thread over on the CLR because I think party formation and the Libertas situation in particular are very interesting. How important is it in the scheme of things? It could be as you propose ibis that Libertas is a significant newcomer to the Irish political scene, but I tend to doubt that for the moment. Without a base it's going nowhere, and I can't see a base yet. Maybe post-Lisbon one will appear, but...

Yes, I'm not 100% convinced myself, but as I say they have the money to hang on in there for the long run.

WorldbyStorm wrote:
cactus flower, what you say about not paying it any heed unless you'd read about it on p.ie may well be a very important insight into the reality, as distinct from the superheated rhetoric, of Libertas and its impact more broadly. I'd love to hear some statistics on name recognition...

They will be vastly better recognised after the referendum than they were before. It's a very handy launch-pad.

I'm bumping this thread, as there is plenty of evidence that Libertas ( and for that matter Coir ) are not showing any signs of packing up their tents and disappearing post Lisbon.

Ganley has given interviews to Eamon Dunphy on RTE and I hear also to the Irish Times. The main aim of the RTE interview appeared to be to apply a coat of saccharine to himself and to Libertas. It appears that both Libertas and Coir have used the Lisbon campaign as a movement-building exercise. The gap between the larger Dail parties and the electorate along with the demise of the PDs leaves an opening for a new party.
Do these groups, or any of the alliances of the left that worked for a No vote, have a future as political parties in Ireland?

There is a suggestion that a young vote came out for Lisbon - that certainly happened with young people I know, voting for the first time in their late teens and early 20s. This young vote, likely to be more radical and less tied to existing parties, may, along with the Lisbon backwash, mean the beginning of a reconfiguration of the party politics in Ireland.
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:06 am

molly bloom aka cactus f wrote:
There is a suggestion that a young vote came out for Lisbon - that certainly happened with young people I know, voting for the first time in their late teens and early 20s. This young vote, likely to be more radical and less tied to existing parties, may, along with the Lisbon backwash, mean the beginning of a reconfiguration of the party politics in Ireland.
Interesting alright indeed cactus - the traditional irish parties were booted in the teeth in this one anyway and if the debacle goes on long enough then I wonder will we see a wearying of them and a rising interest in the likes of Libertas? I went to a Lisbon meeting in Ennis which turned out to be a Libertas one (where Anthony Coughlan was speaking plus I got the free book for a small donation) and it turned out the audience was of all NO presuasions - a few from FF too. I knew this because one lad who stood up to speak during the debate was told at the end by an auldfella standing at the back not to bother coming to the meeting on Monday night anymore Laughing

I'm wondering if it could unite the Left somewhat too?
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:19 am

I heard last night that Ganley has been invited over to Wesminister to chat with Tory eurosceptics . Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:47 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
molly bloom aka cactus f wrote:
There is a suggestion that a young vote came out for Lisbon - that certainly happened with young people I know, voting for the first time in their late teens and early 20s. This young vote, likely to be more radical and less tied to existing parties, may, along with the Lisbon backwash, mean the beginning of a reconfiguration of the party politics in Ireland.
Interesting alright indeed cactus - the traditional irish parties were booted in the teeth in this one anyway and if the debacle goes on long enough then I wonder will we see a wearying of them and a rising interest in the likes of Libertas? I went to a Lisbon meeting in Ennis which turned out to be a Libertas one (where Anthony Coughlan was speaking plus I got the free book for a small donation) and it turned out the audience was of all NO presuasions - a few from FF too. I knew this because one lad who stood up to speak during the debate was told at the end by an auldfella standing at the back not to bother coming to the meeting on Monday night anymore Laughing
I'm wondering if it could unite the Left somewhat too?

What did he say?
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:00 pm

They were talking generally about the lack of democracy and the younger fella said that John Bruton originally proposed that the President of the Commission be elected by the people of Europe but that that proposal was turned down by the Council of Ministers (?) .

At the end of the debate the old man gave the line about how all our party leaders put together can't be wrong and threatened everyone with FF going hell for leather in the next local election (and winning every seat in Clare ??) at which point the youngfella made the comment that the local elections have nothing to do with this at which point he was told he was a persona non grata ...
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:15 pm

Of course the council of Ministers don’t want a democratically
elected European President.

Forming a political party seems to happen on the left ever
time there is a room with more than one person. Setting up the party would be
the easy part, keeping momentum going and getting elected more problematic.
Once they hit elections they will be into parish pump politics like everyone
else, if they don’t the Irish electorate won’t vote for them. So the gloss will
soon rear off.

A new party fighting an election has a mountain to climb. Would
they have enough people in any constituency to be effective and to grind
through a thorough canvass. They can’t rely on the press as come election time
they will probably be drowned out by the main parties. Public recognicision is hard to achieve. It will be hard going and
what niche exactly do they see? What exactly will distinguish them?
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:20 pm

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
I heard last night that Ganley has been invited over to Wesminister to chat with Tory eurosceptics . Shocked

He's in today's IT - "Ganley calls for British referendum if treaty is ratified".
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:23 pm

ibis wrote:
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
I heard last night that Ganley has been invited over to Wesminister to chat with Tory eurosceptics . Shocked

He's in today's IT - "Ganley calls for British referendum if treaty is ratified".

Gordon Brown is a very weak Prime Minister, he could crack in this regard.
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:34 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
They were talking generally about the lack of democracy and the younger fella said that John Bruton originally proposed that the President of the Commission be elected by the people of Europe but that that proposal was turned down by the Council of Ministers (?) .

Here he is saying exactly that.
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PostSubject: Re: New Political Parties: Do You Get What it Says on the Tin?   Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:35 pm

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
ibis wrote:
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
I heard last night that Ganley has been invited over to Wesminister to chat with Tory eurosceptics . Shocked

He's in today's IT - "Ganley calls for British referendum if treaty is ratified".

Gordon Brown is a very weak Prime Minister, he could crack in this regard.

I actually doubt that. It's more likely that there might be a Lords' rejection.
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