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 Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod

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PostSubject: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:22 pm



MOD
Evening all. The Libertas threads here will be undergoing a facelift. That means ALL posts will be content based. Unproductive, trolling, off-topic posts will be deleted without warning and without consultation. It's in your interest to post well.

That means no snide remarks, no ad hominems, no libel (as always)...
If you've a problem, report the post - and we'll deal with it. Posts that whinge about other posts or moderation or the site will be deleted.
EVERY new statement made must be linked - if you can't link it or provide sources for your assertions, they will be deleted.
If you want to respond to a post, do so in a constructive way - with some kind of evidence to back up your point.
See the pyramid below.

Virtually all who post on these threads (and some of you post exclusively on the Libertas threads) claim to be interested in Libertas and Declan Ganley and related issues, well now's the time to show your true colours.

Please also bear in mind the statement below.


Kate P.



Quote :

johnfás wrote:
Libertas, welcome dynamic in Irish and European Politics or dangerous opaque and personality driven organisation?

Much has been said of Libertas on this website over the past number of weeks. It is our intention that debate should be open and free and that all issues are welcome to be addressed. However, as per the Machine Nation Charter:

  1. All persons (members and non members) are entitled to their good name save for explicit evidence to the contrary.
  2. In the course of debate and discussion members must at all times treat each other with the respect that they would expect to be shown towards themselves. The membership of this forum includes those involved with and those supporting Libertas - we welcome their contributions as we do the contributions from supporters of any group. Name calling, personalised attacks or attempts to belittle other members are not in the spirit of this site and will not be tolerated.
  3. In discussing controversial issues, strict rules of engagement apply. If you believe you have discovered information which you feel should be brought to light you should do so in a clear and concise manner, citing reasonable sources and explaining their relevance to the point you are making.

It is the desire of Machine Nation to promote self and communal moderation insofar as possible. However, posting in breach of the above guidelines, or any aspect of the Charter (available here) is liable to be dealt with unilaterally by the content team. In such circumstances your posting be replaced by the words "Hidden Message", your own message being hidden from public view. If you have a comment to make on the action the correct course is to click the ! button, reporting the post, and citing the reasons for your submission.

Given that we do not have eyes and ears on the website around the clock it is possible that the thread will be locked during night hours, particularly if controversial issues are being discussed.

Beyond that, let us get down to business discussing one of the most interesting, controversial, arguably dynamic and welcome, arguably dangerous and divisive, developments in Irish politics in recent years.

------

Mods statement.

-----

Quote :
Please study this disagreement hierarchy as well as reading the link to the Paul Graham article on 'How to Disagree' as the mods will do their best to adhere to the structurs of it and will try to be as fair as possible.

Questioning the hierarchy below or asserting that the board is biased wiil not be tolerated on-thread so please report posts if you feel there is imbalance. Final editorial descisions will remain at the discretion of the Moderating members and .... because mods are PART TIME and VOLUNTARY on these threads they will not appreciate an intolerable level of spam reporting nor an excess of the kind of posting that will fall into the kind indicated at the bottom of that hierarchy. Mods may want to spend their time posting on other topics such as the solar panels thread, the mars discussion, on the construction of the legal forum or on the finance threads which are hot stuff at the moment.

The triangle will appear whenever it is needed and as in the rules of several games of football, more cards than a few and the card changes colour and you may be sin-binned for a day or two. Banning will occur if Charter outlines are repeatedly ignored and a ban will mean five days or a week at the minimum.

Please enjoy posting Very Happy and by the way - we're serious Neutral

http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html


-- Auditor #9


FA's post begins here...

Quote :

Libertas already rowing about division of EU Funds.





Though the EU funding for Libertas is now on hold it is interesting to
note that as soon as their 200,000 euro EU grant was approved questions
were raised about which Libertas groups would benefit.
Anita Kelly of Libertas EU stated that this decision would be made later.


Brussels
- The question of whether the Czech party Libertas.cz will be entitled
to EU subsidies designed for Libertas.eu, a newly-registered
pan-European party, is open, Libertas.eu spokeswoman Anita Kelly told
CTK today.

This despite the Czech Libertas being
totally eurosceptic and Libertas Eu claiming to be pro European. Does
the fact that Libertas will consider giving the Czech money mean that
anyone who registers a local Libertas in their EU state will be
entitled to a share of the Libertas cash?
She
confirmed that Libertas.eu of Irish millionaire Declan Ganley views
Libertas.cz, founded by MEP Vladimir Zelezny, a former media magnate,
as its branch and not its rival.After the EP recognised Ganley's
Libertas as a European political party, Libertas has become eligible
for drawing money from EU funds.According to the Irish media, Libertas is immediately eligible for 200,000 euros, and the sum may further grow.Kelly told CTK that the party will start drawing money from the EU only after the EU elections due in late spring.It will only become clear later whether the party's foreign branches, including the Czech one, will be eligible to the money.The question of Zelezny's candidacy to the EP remains open as well, Kelly said.In
January Zelezny told the Czech media that it will be his Libertas.cz
leadership, not Ganley, who will be Libertas.cz's number one candidate.Now Zelezny does not want to comment on his party before certain further negotiations are closed, sources from around him say.Like Ganley, Zelezny is a staunch opponent of the Lisbon treaty designed to reform the EU.While
the Irish rejected the treaty in a referendum last June, the Czech
Republic is the only of the 27 EU countries not to have taken a
position on the document as yet. Part of the Czech senior ruling Civic
Democrats (ODS) are reluctant to support it in parliament.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:24 pm

****** most of you live in and around Dublin , why not have this debate in public? Cookie , ANti coalition, kev bar etc Otherwise. ******

Mod: New rules of engagement on Libertas threads, which will be ruthlessly modded to ensure they are content based. Posts which are too much hassle to tidy up (unlike this one), will simply be deleted. Rules will be posted in OP and notice will be given as and when they are altered.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:37 pm

You mention a Czech person, I got my hair cut this afternoon by a Czech girl, she was from a spa town in the western Czech Republic, where she had her own salon. She said she had lots of Germans as clients, coming over the border to recuperate at the spas, she said she didn't like them because they were very 'cold-nosed', by which I assume she means that they were a bit rude and unfriendly. She said she liked Ireland a lot more because the people aren't like those Germans. She doesn't like the weather though, although she thought it lovely today. I got it cut short around the back and sides, with about a third off the top. She was very nice anyway, not the best English, but very pretty indeed.

Just before that, I bought Village magazine. There is a great exclusive from Frank Connolly in it about the architect/developer Paul Clinton, and his involvement with the Carlton Cinema site in O'Connell Street. Apparently, he has come forward to tell of a 'well-connected political figure' who introduced him to Frank Dunlop and the 'system' (when he says his troubles began), and also tried to get him to sell on his tax incentives for the site. The abuse of the tax designation system is apparently widespread. He tells of how the proposed tax designations for Dublin were available to developers long before they became public, allowing the developers to make a killing by buying up the land before the announcement. This echoes the same allegation made about Bertie Ahern in the mid-90s, that files were taken away for developers to look at, Emmett Stagg made a complaint, Reynolds told ahern to put the files back. Clinton also tells of a senior public official who told him that it was essential to pay off senior political figures and officials, that it was the 'golden rule' of Dublin's property scene, and tells how that same official intervened directly with his bankers to try and screw his plans when he refused to pay the bribes. I get the feeling that some of the figures involved were until recently very senior political figures indeed, or close friends anyway. Clinton also tells of being basically held captive in a car in an alley and pressured to sell on his tax incentives for the site, which he refused to do.

It's a great exclusive for Connolly, and might cause some trouble for some very prominent people. It's this type of journalism that Village should encourage. But their editorial policy since the takeover has been of varying judgment. You get articles like this, but on the previous pages you have Kevin Barrington's obsessive Ganley witch-hunt. It's hard to know where the new editorial team, under Michael Smith, want to go with the magazine, but I hope it's better than what I read there.

That Czech girl was right about the weather, though...
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:13 am

perhaps you could write the Declan Ganley story from your perspective for them.

Rosy cheeked bogboy arrives in big city innit
an then works on a building site an pubs from Cricklewood to Brixton innit

Then e sees is chance an takes a job as a tea boy in a firm something ta do with insurence , ya know wot I mean innit

then he has a great idea an he tries to fly things to outer space on bleedin commie rockets innit
an den he flies to America an these top blokes from the US army or something met innit


to be continued My Story an authorised biography of Declan Ganley innit
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:27 am

Frightened Albanian wrote:
perhaps you could write the Declan Ganley story from your perspective for them.

Rosy cheeked bogboy arrives in big city innit
an then works on a building site an pubs from Cricklewood to Brixton innit

Then e sees is chance an takes a job as a tea boy in a firm something ta do with insurence , ya know wot I mean innit

then he has a great idea an he tries to fly things to outer space on bleedin commie rockets innit
an den he flies to America an these top blokes from the US army or something met innit


to be continued My Story an authorised biography of Declan Ganley innit

Yes, he has an English accent, well done. Bit more lower-middle class estuary sounding than the Dick van Dyke version you seem to think he has though, but well done on getting the right end of the country anyway...
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:54 am

At night school in Brixton he studied patwa and became versant in that native sof lundin patter. rude bwoi naw fi know im afi dead an ting innit
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:58 am

Frightened Albanian wrote:
At night school in Brixton he studied patwa and became versant in that native sof lundin patter. rude bwoi naw fi know im afi dead an ting innit
He then became a White Rasta? I don't think he could have had enough of a barnet to get away with it, quite honestly...
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:02 am

toxic avenger wrote:
Frightened Albanian wrote:
At night school in Brixton he studied patwa and became versant in that native sof lundin patter. rude bwoi naw fi know im afi dead an ting innit
He then became a White Rasta? I don't think he could have had enough of a barnet to get away with it, quite honestly...

He'd look good in dreads....but perhaps FA doesn't have our facility with London accents.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:46 am

I think if you examine the root of the prose you would find the hand of Buju Banton hovering
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:36 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:39 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:33 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
Frightened Albanian wrote:
Here is a handy link to the Libertas Nein Danke blog archive Links to people korps posts

What's on it ?

It appears to be an attempt at collecting the most factual inaccuracies in a single website.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:46 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:
Frightened Albanian wrote:
Here is a handy link to the Libertas Nein Danke blog archive Links to people korps posts

What's on it ?

It appears to be an attempt at collecting the most factual inaccuracies in a single website.

Well Wikipedia now has a challenger...
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:58 pm

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:
Frightened Albanian wrote:
Here is a handy link to the Libertas Nein Danke blog archive Links to people korps posts

What's on it ?

It appears to be an attempt at collecting the most factual inaccuracies in a single website.

Well Wikipedia now has a challenger...

You will find that wikipedia on declan ganley is well sourced and footnoted to reliable secondary sources, news outlets , eu reports etc

People korps blog Libertas Nein Danke likewise posts news articles and links to news articles amid spiky opinion and links to opinion pieces. It is a great resources for those who want to know more about Libertas and Declan Ganley.

Libertas communicate with the blog and the blog also has published Libertas press statements and site content.

Good stuff . Another interesting new blog is Declan Ganley Blogspot:Declan Ganley & Libertas. Politcal suicide in slow motion
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:27 am

You may think that, but first look at that page and a reader's eyes will be assaulted with inaccuracy.

Cyprian Gutkowski - That webiste states that;
1. He is a "Libertas candidate". That's not correct. He's not a candidate, if you can provide a source for that I'm sure we'd all be delighted.
2. That he was "censured for saying Jews were biologically different" which is also untrue. If you can find a source for that little cliam I'm sure readers would be delighted.

I won't bother with reading the rest of the page.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:29 am

Frightened Albanian wrote:


People korps blog Libertas Nein Danke likewise posts news articles and links to news articles amid spiky opinion and links to opinion pieces. It is a great resources for those who want to know more about Libertas and Declan Ganley.
Nothing on that website stacks up.

Quote :

Libertas communicate with the blog and the blog also has published Libertas press statements and site content.
Libertas communicated with the blog to correct a lie which was published in it.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:39 am

cookiemonster wrote:
You may think that, but first look at that page and a reader's eyes will be assaulted with inaccuracy.

Cyprian Gutkowski - That webiste states that;
1. He is a "Libertas candidate". That's not correct. He's not a candidate, if you can provide a source for that I'm sure we'd all be delighted.
2. That he was "censured for saying Jews were biologically different" which is also untrue. If you can find a source for that little cliam I'm sure readers would be delighted.

I won't bother with reading the rest of the page.
I think one sources covers both points
The Examiner 2 Feb 2009

Libertas set to emerge as political party as candidates unveiled

Quote :

* Cyprian Gutkowski, a number of the
regional assembly of Mazovia, Poland. A supporter of MEP Maciej
Giertych, 72, of the League of Polish Families who was censured in the
EP for his booklet suggesting the Jews were biologically different.


Last edited by Frightened Albanian on Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:43 am

Frightened Albanian wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
You may think that, but first look at that page and a reader's eyes will be assaulted with inaccuracy.

Cyprian Gutkowski - That webiste states that;
1. He is a "Libertas candidate". That's not correct. He's not a candidate, if you can provide a source for that I'm sure we'd all be delighted.
2. That he was "censured for saying Jews were biologically different" which is also untrue. If you can find a source for that little cliam I'm sure readers would be delighted.

I won't bother with reading the rest of the page.
I think one sources covers both points
The Examiner 2 Feb 2009

Libertas set to emerge as political party as candidates unveiled

I'm afraid it doesn't. Try again.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:45 am

cookiemonster wrote:
Frightened Albanian wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
You may think that, but first look at that page and a reader's eyes will be assaulted with inaccuracy.

Cyprian Gutkowski - That webiste states that;
1. He is a "Libertas candidate". That's not correct. He's not a candidate, if you can provide a source for that I'm sure we'd all be delighted.
2. That he was "censured for saying Jews were biologically different" which is also untrue. If you can find a source for that little cliam I'm sure readers would be delighted.

I won't bother with reading the rest of the page.
I think one sources covers both points
The Examiner 2 Feb 2009

Libertas set to emerge as political party as candidates unveiled

I'm afraid it doesn't. Try again.


Libertas set to emerge as political party as candidates unveiled



Monday, February 02, 2009


Libertas set to emerge as political party as candidates unveiled

By Ann Cahill, Europe Correspondent
A new pan-EU political party, Libertas, is due to be born today, but it looks quite similar to some other parties that also qualify for EU funding.

The president, 14 vice-presidents and six questors of the European Parliament are expected to rubber stamp Libertas’ membership application at a meeting in Strasbourg later today.

It will allow the organisation conceived by Declan Ganley to collect €200,000 from EU funds immediately. If, as he hopes, he wins more members during the European elections in June, that amount will increase.

But if all goes as expected today, Libertas will join the
ranks of 10 other pan European political groups registered and receiving funding from the parliament.

The idea of encouraging such parties is to foster political action that is not limited by national borders but has a Europe-wide dimension, hence the requirement for parties to have members elected to the EP or to regional or national bodies in at least seven countries.

Every approved party is eligible for a basic €100,000 and the rest of the money depends on the number of MEPs linked to the party. In Libertas’s case, they start off with three MEPs — two French and one Greek.

The rest are one from the British House of Lords,
three from national parliaments — Estonia, Finland and Bulgaria — and one from a Polish regional government.

The man behind the scenes, instrumental in the birth of Libertas, is the Danish eurosceptic Jens Peter Bonde who resigned from the parliament two years
ago. He knows the workings of the EP inside out and has been responsible for two European parties, the EUD — European Democratic Party — and its sister Alliance for a Europe of Democracies (AIDE).

They both receive funding from the EP and now he can add a third to his family with Libertas.

To get funding, members must be exclusive to parties and Libertas has been lucky enough to get members who were once in Mr Bonde’s parties.

The funding from the EP can be spent on promoting themselves throughout the EU thought not on funding national candidates or referenda. And these pan-European parties can spin off into political groups in the
parliament where they qualify for additional money. For instance EUD and AIDE members are to be found in the independence/democracy group.

The composition of the Libertas party looks equally diverse though they share many of the attributes of the other two parties — they tend to be nationalistic, euro sceptic and in some cases anti-abortion. So far
they have nobody from the island of Ireland unlike their sister organisations.

Members of the Libertas political party, according to their membership application to the parliament are:

* Lord Alton of Liverpool, a former teacher and son of an Irish speaking mother from the west of Ireland who is very active in anti-abortion circles and was author of a chain letter distributed by independent MEP Kathy Sinnott.

* Viscount Philippe le Jolis de Villiers de Saintignon, MEP and leader of the Catholic conservative party, Mouvement pour la France noted for his anti-Islamist views and
his wish to restore the franc.

* Paul Marie Couteaux, MEP who would like to see France distancing itself from the union.

* Georgios Georgiou, 72, Greek MEP, a member of the People’s Orthodox Rally, that has moved recently from being anti-semitic to advocating gay rights.

* Timo Soini, of the True Finns Party that has
five seats in the Finnish Parliament and been accused of xenophobia, which he denies as a devoted Catholic.

* Igor Grazin a member of the Estonian parliament for the eurosceptic Estonian Reform Party, was a member of the last USSR Congress of People’s Deputies.

* Mincho Kuminev, one of 20 independent members of the Bulgarian parliament elected in mid 2005.

* Cyprian Gutkowski, a number of the regional assembly of Mazovia, Poland. A supporter of MEP Maciej Giertych, 72, of the League of Polish Families who was censured in the EP for his booklet suggesting the Jews were biologically different.



Last edited by cactus flower on Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:37 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : formatted - cf)
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[td valign="top"]
PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:48 am

Frightened Albanian wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
Frightened Albanian wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
You may think that, but first look at that page and a reader's eyes will be assaulted with inaccuracy.

Cyprian Gutkowski - That webiste states that;
1. He is a "Libertas candidate". That's not correct. He's not a candidate, if you can provide a source for that I'm sure we'd all be delighted.
2. That he was "censured for saying Jews were biologically different" which is also untrue. If you can find a source for that little cliam I'm sure readers would be delighted.

I won't bother with reading the rest of the page.
I think one sources covers both points
The Examiner 2 Feb 2009

Libertas set to emerge as political party as candidates unveiled

I'm afraid it doesn't. Try again.

[table valign="top" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="477"][tr]



Monday, February 02, 2009


Libertas set to emerge as political party as candidates unveiled

By Ann Cahill, Europe Correspondent
A
new pan-EU political party, Libertas, is due to be born today, but it
looks quite similar to some other parties that also qualify for EU
funding.

etc.
Yes, sunshine, i read the article. Ann Cahil's opinion about those names being candidates doesn't make it so. So, again if you can find confirmation that they are candidates i'm sure the posters here would love to see it.

The second point is also not backed up by that article. Try again.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:51 am

The second point is a direct quote from the article
Quote :
Cyprian Gutkowski, a number of the regional assembly of Mazovia,
Poland. A supporter of MEP Maciej Giertych, 72, of the League of Polish
Families who was censured in the EP for his booklet suggesting the Jews
were biologically different.

he supports the guy who supports the view get over it.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:56 am

Frightened Albanian wrote:
The second point is a direct quote from the article
Quote :
Cyprian Gutkowski, a number of the regional assembly of Mazovia,
Poland. A supporter of MEP Maciej Giertych, 72, of the League of Polish
Families who was censured in the EP for his booklet suggesting the Jews
were biologically different.

he supports the guy who supports the view get over it.

But that's not what the awful peoplekorps blog said, is it? That blog his littered with lies, huge misrepresentation of facts and other intentionally deleterious nonsense. It can't be trusted.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:15 am

I don't know readers can look at the sources there unlike the Libertas eu site
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:16 am

It is a shade of difference, supporter of the guy who wrote on Jewish inferiority or the guy same thing really .Most people would not support a guy with extreme views like that without supporting the views.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:18 am

Frightened Albanian wrote:
It is a shade of difference, supporter of the guy who wrote on Jewish inferiority or the guy same thing really .Most people world not support a guy with extreme views like that without supporting the views.

It's a shade of TRUTH and LIE.
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