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 Lisbon and Neutrality

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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Wed May 14, 2008 5:23 pm

Helium Three wrote:
seinfeld wrote:
Helium Three wrote:
Make of that what you will cactus flower.

I can't see how changing the rules of the club in this way and then doing what ibis or seinfeld says is enough, is enough, but then maybe that's just me. We have new obligations to our partners in the club. Not having a Court to lock us up doesn't see relevant to that.

We have new obligations, but they are obligations that we are already meeting, obligations that we have always met, and obligations that we are likely to continue meeting, regardless of Lisbon, for the forseeable future.


If you think that signing an international treaty that for the first time is saying that we undertake this commitment changes nothing you are on your own there seinfeld.

I haven't said it changes nothing. It does. We have made a commitment.

What I am saying is that it doesn't make a difference for as long as the Irish Government wishes to progressively improve our military capability.

If you think that any of the Irish political parties will scale back our defence forces in the years to come, and you are supportive of such a policy, you should by all means vote not.

However, suggesting that Lisbon compels the Irish Government to improve our military capability at a rate faster than currently applies is misleading.
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Wed May 14, 2008 8:03 pm

when did european colonialism stop, give us an exact date

the irsh army did go toe to toe with rioters protesting over hblock stuff back in the seventies when the gardai got swamped also been used a cuople of times in recent years against protestors in shannon and funnily enough at an eu summit.
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Wed May 14, 2008 8:29 pm

lostexpectation wrote:
when did european colonialism stop, give us an exact date

What's today's date again? And are there places still using a "colonial Euro"?

lostexpectation wrote:
the irsh army did go toe to toe with rioters protesting over hblock stuff back in the seventies when the gardai got swamped also been used a cuople of times in recent years against protestors in shannon and funnily enough at an eu summit.

Yet still they haven't "cleaned up" SF, or the SWP, or PANA, or all those other subversives...and how many people did they shoot on these occasions?
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Wed May 14, 2008 9:07 pm

We are back to the beginning , why does the Irish Army have to beef up. These Europhiles are selling a rational that makes no sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Wed May 14, 2008 9:13 pm

youngdan wrote:
We are back to the beginning , why does the Irish Army have to beef up. These Europhiles are selling a rational that makes no sense.

They are worried about internal and external security around all borders perhaps:
the Balkans ?
African migration ?
food riots ?
access to gas and oil ?
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Wed May 14, 2008 10:09 pm

youngdan wrote:
We are back to the beginning , why does the Irish Army have to beef up. These Europhiles are selling a rational that makes no sense.

We are back at the beginning because the entire premise is wrong. The idea behind creating a joint European force is straightforward - to make EU member state militaries complementary and interlocking. This is not in order to achieve world domination, but to carry out the basic central goal of the EU - to stop European countries from fighting each other.
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Wed May 14, 2008 10:35 pm

ibis wrote:
youngdan wrote:
We are back to the beginning , why does the Irish Army have to beef up. These Europhiles are selling a rational that makes no sense.

We are back at the beginning because the entire premise is wrong. The idea behind creating a joint European force is straightforward - to make EU member state militaries complementary and interlocking. This is not in order to achieve world domination, but to carry out the basic central goal of the EU - to stop European countries from fighting each other.

Where does it say we are not allowed to do that, Ibis ?
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Wed May 14, 2008 11:05 pm

cactus flower wrote:
ibis wrote:
youngdan wrote:
We are back to the beginning , why does the Irish Army have to beef up. These Europhiles are selling a rational that makes no sense.

We are back at the beginning because the entire premise is wrong. The idea behind creating a joint European force is straightforward - to make EU member state militaries complementary and interlocking. This is not in order to achieve world domination, but to carry out the basic central goal of the EU - to stop European countries from fighting each other.

Where does it say we are not allowed to do that, Ibis ?

It doesn't state it anywhere, because the EU is not a military treaty, even in the sense of being a peace treaty. The aim is not one of enforcing a peace, but of making war between the European nations-states unthinkable, or ideally impossible.
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Thu May 15, 2008 12:34 am

This is going from bad to worse. So to stop European armies fighting each other they must be strenghtened. No country is thinking of attacking another in the EU. More prepostrous mullarky.
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Thu May 15, 2008 12:38 am

ibis wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
ibis wrote:
youngdan wrote:
We are back to the beginning , why does the Irish Army have to beef up. These Europhiles are selling a rational that makes no sense.

We are back at the beginning because the entire premise is wrong. The idea behind creating a joint European force is straightforward - to make EU member state militaries complementary and interlocking. This is not in order to achieve world domination, but to carry out the basic central goal of the EU - to stop European countries from fighting each other.

Where does it say we are not allowed to do that, Ibis ?

It doesn't state it anywhere, because the EU is not a military treaty, even in the sense of being a peace treaty. The aim is not one of enforcing a peace, but of making war between the European nations-states unthinkable, or ideally impossible.

So we can go about enforcing peace in Chad, as we think fit, and we haven't even made an expression of peacefulness between each other? You could do better than that you were doing a community development project with the ICA.
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Thu May 15, 2008 2:06 am

ibis wrote:


Yet still they haven't "cleaned up" SF, or the SWP, or PANA, or all those other subversives...and how many people did they shoot on these occasions?

it quite clear they used the army to intimidate the people to help an neo-colonist invasion, that despicable and beyond the law.
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Thu May 15, 2008 2:08 am

the ref commission don't think are neutrality has been altered, well one has to ask the commission if we're neutral first, or what sort of neutrality we have.

we could say well they say its not altered so it doesn't matter either way but the clearly see as more complicated as that themselves.

i bet they stick with the mainstream establishment line its much easier, lots of people are like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Thu May 15, 2008 2:10 am

lostexpectation wrote:
ibis wrote:


Yet still they haven't "cleaned up" SF, or the SWP, or PANA, or all those other subversives...and how many people did they shoot on these occasions?

it quite clear they used the army to intimidate the people to help an neo-colonist invasion, that despicable and beyond the law.

What neo-colonist invasion was that? - I must have been on a ciggie break and missed it.
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Thu May 15, 2008 2:19 am

on willie o'dea's nation forum vid he talk of being able to export the eu's peace and prosperity, we all know what that means, we all know there another man in this world with a particular interest in oil and 'energy security' who said his main goal still was to export 'democracy' (read as capitalism) by any means necessary.

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=u_dm9QrH11I

for reason the forum on europe have disabled comments on the youtube videos, still can't quite go the whole way with this technology stuff.

stil don't see the merkel transcript up

she said similar things about expanding our global powers.
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Thu May 15, 2008 2:59 am

Why that is the same shrimp I saw with the big gun a while back here. Who listens to this pigmie
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Thu May 15, 2008 4:26 am

On another point entirely - where the heck did I put that scan of the Libertas leaflet?
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Thu May 15, 2008 5:24 am

lostexpectation wrote:
on willie o'dea's nation forum vid he talk of
being able to export the eu's peace and prosperity,
Perhaps he
should start with Limerick. Smile

Regards...jmcc
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Thu May 15, 2008 10:30 am

jmcc - I started a thread once on P.ie about sending the UN into Limerick (was serious). It got no posts whatsoever. It is probably still there somewhere covered in dust if you wanted to bump it.
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Thu May 15, 2008 11:52 am

If I didnt know better, I'd think they were trying to confuse us.
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Thu May 15, 2008 3:54 pm

Edo wrote:
lostexpectation wrote:
ibis wrote:


Yet still they haven't "cleaned up" SF, or the SWP, or PANA, or all those other subversives...and how many people did they shoot on these occasions?

it quite clear they used the army to intimidate the people to help an neo-colonist invasion, that despicable and beyond the law.

What neo-colonist invasion was that? - I must have been on a ciggie break and missed it.

iraq, we've helped them big time and used our army to back them when 100,00 were marching against the use of shannon

http://jimbox.homedns.org/rants/images/uploads/tanks.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brianarthur/761726275/
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/images/0625-01.jpg apcs outside shannon.
http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jun2004/16_view_from_ambo_3.jpg
http://www.struggle.ws/pics/2003/antiwarFEB/bigview.jpg february 15th 100,000 thousands protesters take the hint
http://ie.indymedia.org/cache/imagecache/local/attachments/aug2006/460_0___30_0_0_0_0_0_2_2.jpg irish army at shannon
http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0624/iraq01.html
http://www.ronanos.com/photogallery/bush_visits_shannon/imagelist.html
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2003/0204/1043927474667.html cabinet approve irish army to protect us army


ah im looking for particular picture of irish army with riot shields and protestors but i can't find it.

the purpose of having armies and weapons is not always to shoot, ever heard of nuclear weapons


Last edited by lostexpectation on Thu May 15, 2008 4:27 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Thu May 15, 2008 3:56 pm

i mean they keep saying we have veto, 'we' won't be forced to do anything, it doesn't take much for ireland to go along with the flow of the rest of the west, i want some laws that stop the dail doing stupid aggressive things

http://www.forumoneurope.ie/eng/index.asp?docID=1664
national forum on military etc


Last edited by lostexpectation on Thu May 15, 2008 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Thu May 15, 2008 5:47 pm

Off-topic - but this is how the GAA people of An Fearr Rua are going to vote:

Lisbon Treaty: How will you vote?

Yes (37%)
No (53%)
Abstain (5%)
Don't Know (5%)


Can we affiliate with that site? I just found these delicious posts:

A lot have people have been complaining about the quality of threads and tidying it up ahead of the championship. We discussed banning everything from Glasgow soccer to Munster Rugby to Wummers (easy target for Quality control). Less obvious but equally annoying is the wannabe lexicographers. AFR, can you give them the boot!

Here are some of the threads clogging up the board in the past
two weeks

Topic: Mum or Mam (13)
Topic: Ireland, Republic of Ireland or Eire? (5)
Topic: Do you call potato crisps Tayto or Crisps? (15)
Topic: Do you call them Kerry or just Champ’s (2)

OK – I made up the last one, but come on – what are we? Eight! I have put the number of previous posts in brackets too and it’s obvious they all have just got the Internet. They should have just bought a thesaurus.

Ron Burgundy
Posts: 4 Posted 12-May-2008 18:10

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Long time lurker but only recently joined! Cant believe the quality of some of the topics, another one you forgot Welger was the one about pencil parer and sharpener or something to that affect! Ridiculous stuff!



LINK
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Thu May 15, 2008 7:10 pm

Crikey those armoured personnel carriers must be very heavy on juice. Why is nobody complaining about the carbon footprint. Those who rant most about global warming want the military to be increased. They are cuckoo I tell ye, totally cuckoo.
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Thu May 15, 2008 8:24 pm

Those who rant most about global warming want the military to be increased.
who ? cut the crap
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PostSubject: Re: Lisbon and Neutrality   Thu May 15, 2008 8:43 pm

Those here who want the Lisbon treaty passed are the same who are most concerned about global warming.
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