Finally someone came up with some receipts - the web was cast too far, there had to be someone who wouldn't be in the club. First it was Padraic O'Connor now it's Blair Hughes, the building society manager who tightened the noose yesterday.

Discussions on Politics.ie
Bank Manager Says Accounts Were Not FF Accounts
Breakdown of Ahern Lodgements
Caruth Breaks?


background
The Mahon Tribunal on Wiki

I think I'll wait to hear Eoghan Harris' clarification before I jump to crazy conclusions. Honestly, some people.

Actually, looking at that set of articles, more than Ahern should be hanged. Why, it looks almost as if all our politicians were on the development game back in the 80's and early 90's. That can't be right, surely?

Certainly is. No doubt tonys will be along soon. I see hes signed up. I find that most people who I ask about the tribunal people who vote Fianna Fáil reply that nobody is interested anymore. It reminds me of people proclaiming that nobody cares about the north in the hope that apathy breaks out before going on to gush forth with deranged anti-northern diatribes.

ibis I'd say it's widespread still, the planning corruption, on little and large scales. If he's guilty of money laundering then surely there was a better way to hide it than the way he did it using Irish banks or banks at all? (although this method has shown remarkable stubborness up until now ... maybe)

Auditor #9 wrote:

ibis I'd say it's widespread still, the planning corruption, on little and large scales. If he's guilty of money laundering then surely there was a better way to hide it than the way he did it using Irish banks or banks at all? (although this method has shown remarkable stubborness up until now ... maybe)

I have to admit, I agree. I do think it's cleaner now - at the time it was really really blatant. The dogs on the street knew that planning in Kildare was a dirty money tree for the politicians.

I can understand FG's wanting to make the whole thing about Bertie, and I'm not about to defend him. However, the question is why the electorate should have any truck with the idea that apart from Bertie (and those others already "convicted") the rest were clean? It doesn't look like that, and anyone who was paying any attention at the time knows that's not how it was. There's plenty of dirt in the Mahon barrel for everyone.

ibis wrote:

I can understand FG's wanting to make the whole thing about Bertie, and I'm not about to defend him. However, the question is why the electorate should have any truck with the idea that apart from Bertie (and those others already "convicted") the rest were clean? It doesn't look like that, and anyone who was paying any attention at the time knows that's not how it was. There's plenty of dirt in the Mahon barrel for everyone.

Do you think there could be a Tribunals worth of FG skellingtons falling out of the closet too? They seem a lot cleaner than FF but maybe they're just better launderers ...

(mary wilson on rte 1 drivetime now about to go to Dublin Castle just after the ad break ..17:09
http://www.rte.ie/radio/index.html Radio 1 for those on the net)

Gráinne Caruth has been asked to go home and ask herself some searching questions before coming back into the tribunal tomorrow after contradicting evidence given by Blair Hughes this morning. Big doo-doo

Yeh, I've been watching that p.ie thread today. He does look forked. But then he looked forked this time last year when the Manchester digout turned up and the 50K under the stairs.

I've sort of lost all track of the twists and turns now, this winter brought me new pursuits, like reading a book.

I sure do hope he's gone soon. I'm sick of him and his gombeen cronies.

Auditor #9 wrote:

ibis wrote:

I can understand FG's wanting to make the whole thing about Bertie, and I'm not about to defend him. However, the question is why the electorate should have any truck with the idea that apart from Bertie (and those others already "convicted") the rest were clean? It doesn't look like that, and anyone who was paying any attention at the time knows that's not how it was. There's plenty of dirt in the Mahon barrel for everyone.

Do you think there could be a Tribunals worth of FG skellingtons falling out of the closet too? They seem a lot cleaner than FF but maybe they're just better launderers ...

They are cleaner, usually - however, you have to wonder if that's by virtue of being out of power mostly. At the council level I don't know whether you can put much between any of the major parties - so the people in FG to have a look at would be the dual-mandate ones.

A lot has been done in the last 15 years to ensure greater cleanliness in Irish politics, including the end of the dual mandate. Some of it has been done by FF, apparently at Bertie's behest...?

Im quite sure you will possibly find a few FG councillors with their hands in the till - possibly in recent years given the massive increase in property prices - in poorer rural areas -if last years primetime special on planning was anything to go by -hopefully not - but I wouldnt be surprised if the temptation became too much for some - but I can guarantee you - if found out - they would be out of the party pronto - speaking as an FG member - its simply would not be tolerated - there is a different ethos within in FG - and the fact that we have been in and out out out of power for so long admittedly helps - if you are on the make - then possibly fine gael is not your party

This has been a double edged sword for us - ambitious able people - regardless of their morals - tend to gravitate towards the centre of power - and FF have been it for the last 25 years - this fact hit home to me last year when a very good friend of mine - self employed businessman/entrepreneur were having a couple of beers and he was saying he would like to get involved in politics and although he admired Fine Gael and what it stood for - he was tending toward joining FF as he felt that was where he could make more change - he couldn't see anybody else but FF in power for the forseeable future - thats scared the S**t out of me - but he was on to something - now that coalition is no big deal for FF - their vote would have to collapse quite dramatically for them to lose power - Lab,Pds,Greens,independents - none of them are a million miles away from FF politically speaking and FF would make it worth their while to coalaesce with them - especially seeing how easily the Greens have been seduced. The only party that will definitelynot go in with FF are FG and that is something we have to hammer home relentlessy for the next dail term as well as continue the good work already begun at grass roots level and behind the scenes of revamping and relooking at our policies and ideals and how relevant they are to the country we live in today - 2002 -2007 was about survival - 2008 onwards will be about reclaming lost territory and we are confident enough to do this now.

Anyway back to the matter in hand.

Ho Hum - I dont get too excited about the tribunal anymore - too many adrenanal rushes are bad for the health. IMO the tribunal is progressing along quite nicely - and the electorate, while not out burning cars in the street (leave that to the drunken teen population by the looks of things) , are quietly keeping tabs and marking the card. Bertie , without question ,is damaged goods - when strong FF neighbours of mine - will change the channel rather than watch the news for fear of more revelations and probably embarrassment in front of me - you know he's on the way out - only question is when and only FF know the answer to that and what the strategy is - AFAIC , from a purely selfish political point of view - he can stay as long as he wants - nothing to be gained from watching the chancer walk now and let FF get their act together with plenty of time to wash the linen before the next election - the longer he lingers and the longer Biffo stays in Finance with the every increasing undesirability of that job in the less than rosy economic weather we are now encountering - everything is progressing along tickety boo thank you very much.

BTW - If I was a betting man I wouldnt be offering great odds on Biffo succeeding Bertie - the last such anointed progressor was Lemass back in 59 - FF dont do successions - which all adds to interesting times ahead in the FF camp and I mean that in the most chinese way possible.

Edo wrote:

Im quite sure you will possibly find a few FG councillors with their hands in the till - possibly in recent years given the massive increase in property prices - in poorer rural areas -if last years primetime special on planning was anything to go by -hopefully not - but I wouldnt be surprised if the temptation became too much for some - but I can guarantee you - if found out - they would be out of the party pronto - speaking as an FG member - its simply would not be tolerated - there is a different ethos within in FG - and the fact that we have been in and out out out of power for so long admittedly helps - if you are on the make - then possibly fine gael is not your party

I accept a lot of that as being true - FG do have a cleaner reputation, and I imagine that is self-sustaining both in itself, and in respect of the out of power problem. Whether it was as true in the 80's I wouldn't be quite so sure of at all - and the same goes for Labour.

Edo wrote:

This has been a double edged sword for us - ambitious able people - regardless of their morals - tend to gravitate towards the centre of power - and FF have been it for the last 25 years - this fact hit home to me last year when a very good friend of mine - self employed businessman/entrepreneur were having a couple of beers and he was saying he would like to get involved in politics and although he admired Fine Gael and what it stood for - he was tending toward joining FF as he felt that was where he could make more change - he couldn't see anybody else but FF in power for the forseeable future - thats scared the S**t out of me - but he was on to something - now that coalition is no big deal for FF - their vote would have to collapse quite dramatically for them to lose power - Lab,Pds,Greens,independents - none of them are a million miles away from FF politically speaking and FF would make it worth their while to coalaesce with them - especially seeing how easily the Greens have been seduced.

To be fair, I don't see that as "seduction" - it's not a great deal, but it has the Greens in government, outside which they weren't actually getting anything done. Opportunism, you might call it. As to the 'changes' since they got in, the rhetoric of opposition and the reality of actually getting something done are often orthogonal.

Edo wrote:

The only party that will definitelynot go in with FF are FG and that is something we have to hammer home relentlessy for the next dail term as well as continue the good work already begun at grass roots level and behind the scenes of revamping and relooking at our policies and ideals and how relevant they are to the country we live in today - 2002 -2007 was about survival - 2008 onwards will be about reclaming lost territory and we are confident enough to do this now.

Well, I wish you all the best in it...I would need to see, hm, clear policy direction perhaps might be the best way of putting it. Political direction and leadership is undoubtedly necessary to rally the faithful, but doesn't quite bring in the lost sheep.

Edo wrote:

Anyway back to the matter in hand.

Ho Hum - I dont get too excited about the tribunal anymore - too many adrenanal rushes are bad for the health. IMO the tribunal is progressing along quite nicely - and the electorate, while not out burning cars in the street (leave that to the drunken teen population by the looks of things) , are quietly keeping tabs and marking the card. Bertie , without question ,is damaged goods - when strong FF neighbours of mine - will change the channel rather than watch the news for fear of more revelations and probably embarrassment in front of me - you know he's on the way out - only question is when and only FF know the answer to that and what the strategy is - AFAIC , from a purely selfish political point of view - he can stay as long as he wants - nothing to be gained from watching the chancer walk now and let FF get their act together with plenty of time to wash the linen before the next election - the longer he lingers and the longer Biffo stays in Finance with the every increasing undesirability of that job in the less than rosy economic weather we are now encountering - everything is progressing along tickety boo thank you very much.

BTW - If I was a betting man I wouldnt be offering great odds on Biffo succeeding Bertie - the last such anointed progressor was Lemass back in 59 - FF dont do successions - which all adds to interesting times ahead in the FF camp and I mean that in the most chinese way possible.

Again, I agree with you pretty much. I'm not a Tribunal follower at all.

How many people do you think prefer FF because they want a corruptible TD in their area to help them out when they need a favour? I would say it would be very tough being an honest FF politico given the number of disappointments they would have to give out and the slim chance they would have of being elected the next time.
The cult of the cute hoor and the choices voters make have given us the politicians we have.

Interesting comments Ibis

Well as regards corruption back in the 80's - well its a good question - but the big difference back in the 80's, particularly during the time of the FG/LAB coalitions was that there really wasnt much opportunity for corruption - you need wealth for that - and between staving off the IMF from taking defacto control of our finances and trying to hold the country together with one of the most fractious coalitions ever put together - There really wasnt a lot to corrupt anybody over unless it was for US passports and green-cards, property was on the floor, construction was virtually non-existent (2 of my relations in the building game went bankrupt during that time) and any money coming into the place was ringfenced by the IDA in regard to FDI and the EC carefully supervised the administration of structural funds (CAP - well the farmers were a law onto themselves in them days - you just stayed the hell out of it and tried not to upset them). Also the Fine Gael party was a very much amateur operation - financially speaking and still is to a great degree , compared to FF anyway. That said I have no doubt that many FG supporters with the means would have availed of offshore accounts and many county councillors ran their wards as personal fiefdoms - Its very hard to describe the fatalism of those days in comparison to now - feckin well everybody was doing a nixer if they had the means - it was a different world - and that time was the slow and difficult birthing to what we have now.

Fine Gael is a funny party when you look at it. a mismash of Pro-treaty republicans, Home rule party refugees, conservative catholics, the remants of the protestant community and the larger farmer and rural middleclass and yet has always been a home for liberals, scholars and thinkers - its amazing it has held together for as long as it has. I can still see this even in my own consitituency. Im only in the party a couple of years - after distaining politics for a good decade or so after my flirtation with marxism at Uni - a bit of a" parvenue "to quote Liam Cosgrave!.

My interest in politics I owe to my Mum - a fully paid up and active member of the Labour Party and my grandfather who was a dyed in the wool Fianna Failer until the accession of Haughey and he tore up his membership card and turned into the Irish Victor Meldrew - funnily enough the vague connection,if any, I have with FG prior to this would be thru my Dads family - his grandfather was one of Collins "special men" - IRB operative and he ran for CnaG in the 20's but was unlucky enough to have a Dublin chancer - Desmond Fitzgerald parachuted into his constituency when he had the best chance of winning it! after that (1928) the family faded out of activism and I have no idea who they vote for now - as my Dad says " its a secret Ballot" and "take your political conversations into the Kitchen- Im trying to watch the golf"

Back on topic - amid this fairly diverse group - I do notice certain consistencies about FG and its members from the consituency and national get-togethers.

Most important - you have to be a gentleman or lady - you might think Im kidding - but etiquette and manners are highly prized - the headbangers in the creche (YFG) are given a pass until they are old enough to have more cop-on - but its nice to be nice - once you can achieve this you are entitled to speak your mind about anything and everything and you will be listened to and I've has some great arguement and debate at FG get-togethers. Ok sometimes I feel Im in a scene out of Remains of the Day ,but there is that sense of "British" (for lack of a better word) fair play and "the right thing to do" - but that comes from history and various strands that make up the party and also to due with the fact that the vast majority of FGs membership is middleclass and professional and university educated - no way around that. That is the double edged sword for the party - while that sense of establishment, the law and order party and nobles obligee has probably sheltered the party from the worst excesses of corruption (its simply not cricket bud!) - and it anchors the party from going too mad in either ideological direction - that very conservatism (in the true sense of the word) has deterred many from joining the party and in a way ,fossilized it a bit as FG's core membership is anything but the establishment in today's Ireland and yet it has plenty of room for people like myself who be very much to the Liberal side of the party and to individuals who have no family roots in the party - Lucinda and Leo have no previous connections to FG. Of course much of what I've said above will be meat and drink to the "Chip on the shoulder" "Republican" gang ,which explains their almost fanatical hatred for us - tho they (FF) have been in power for most of the states existence and are big boys now.

I guess the party now is starting to spread its wings a bit now after really being in survival mode since the PDs came on the scene in 85 - amid all their valedictory backslapping going on now with the imminent demise of the party - they totally fail to recognise how close they came to "breaking the mould" of Irish politics - If they had stayed out of coalition with FF in 89 - we could be looking at a totally different political landscape now - but they have consistently failed to realise who was actually voting for them - the dissaffected FG vote ,cheesed off with having to go in to Government with their ideological opposites (Labour) and those who disliked the direction the party took after Brutons accession to the leadership and the swing back to more conservative grassroots - those fitzgeraldian FGers (economically to the right of centre and socially liberal) were there for the taking (including me), but while the voters were FG - the PDs officer core in the main were FF - once they went in with FF, especially Haughey - that opportunity went like a whiff of smoke on the breeze - ok they will claim credit for tax cuts, tax cuts and tax cuts - but lets be honest , every government likes to give tax cuts -when they can be afforded and when there is a favourable economic climate as there was in the 90's. Enough of the Pds - but Kenny has been the first FG leader to realise that the party had to re-orientate itself to make itself relevant again - we are only at stage 1 on this process and having to do it at a time of unparalleled prosperity and a whole generation growing up having only known good times and FF in the chair - it has been a real challenge.

In retrospect the 2002 meltdown could possibly have been the greatest thing that happened to the party - all bets were off - but first Kenny had to secure the base - the grassroots - in a party that has practiced regicide a little too often for comfort in recent times - that meant no great changes and a steady and unthanked task of rebuilding the party infrastructure and grass roots right accross the country- this he has achieved and that is no mean feat if you know anything about party organisation and the dire-straits the party was in 2002 - the 2007 election was a vindication of this and has secured him his leadership and now we can move onto stage 2 - its already started with a widespread review of our policies and what vision we can present to the nation in 4 years time - and it will be 4 years time - this current coalition is in for the long run so we have plenty of time to get on with this - it wont be visible for a while yet - this takes time and currently all you will see is the window dressing of the tribunal and the run of the mill opposition speak - but underneath the wheels are in motion - I had a great chat with Alan Dukes at the Presidential dinner last autumn and am delighted to see he is getting involved in this process in regard to health - I,myself am looking forward to getting involved in the economic,trade and environmental think ins and debates - those being the issues closest to my heart and as the shipping manager and waste disposal officer in the export company I work for - feel I have some competence in.

Dont give up on us Ibis! - we know what we have to do now - and there is a steely determination within the party to ask the hard questions of ourselves and where we are going and I hope in the coming years - people will be pleasantly surprised at what results.

God is that the time ! - see ya later

Edo wrote:

Interesting comments Ibis

Well as regards corruption back in the 80's - well its a good question - but the big difference back in the 80's, particularly during the time of the FG/LAB coalitions was that there really wasnt much opportunity for corruption - you need wealth for that - and between staving off the IMF from taking defacto control of our finances and trying to hold the country together with one of the most fractious coalitions ever put together - There really wasnt a lot to corrupt anybody over unless it was for US passports and green-cards, property was on the floor, construction was virtually non-existent (2 of my relations in the building game went bankrupt during that time) and any money coming into the place was ringfenced by the IDA in regard to FDI and the EC carefully supervised the administration of structural funds (CAP - well the farmers were a law onto themselves in them days - you just stayed the hell out of it and tried not to upset them). Also the Fine Gael party was a very much amateur operation - financially speaking and still is to a great degree , compared to FF anyway. That said I have no doubt that many FG supporters with the means would have availed of offshore accounts and many county councillors ran their wards as personal fiefdoms - Its very hard to describe the fatalism of those days in comparison to now - feckin well everybody was doing a nixer if they had the means - it was a different world - and that time was the slow and difficult birthing to what we have now.

The developers had money then as well as now - and £5,000 went a long way.

Edo wrote:

Ok sometimes I feel Im in a scene out of Remains of the Day ,but there is that sense of "British" (for lack of a better word) fair play and "the right thing to do" - but that comes from history and various strands that make up the party and also to due with the fact that the vast majority of FGs membership is middleclass and professional and university educated - no way around that. That is the double edged sword for the party - while that sense of establishment, the law and order party and nobles obligee has probably sheltered the party from the worst excesses of corruption (its simply not cricket bud!) - and it anchors the party from going too mad in either ideological direction - that very conservatism (in the true sense of the word) has deterred many from joining the party and in a way ,fossilized it a bit as FG's core membership is anything but the establishment in today's Ireland and yet it has plenty of room for people like myself who be very much to the Liberal side of the party and to individuals who have no family roots in the party - Lucinda and Leo have no previous connections to FG. Of course much of what I've said above will be meat and drink to the "Chip on the shoulder" "Republican" gang ,which explains their almost fanatical hatred for us - tho they (FF) have been in power for most of the states existence and are big boys now.

In some ways, that is both the strength and the weakness of FG. It's not a terrifically Irish characteristic.

Edo wrote:

In retrospect the 2002 meltdown could possibly have been the greatest thing that happened to the party - all bets were off - but first Kenny had to secure the base - the grassroots - in a party that has practiced regicide a little too often for comfort in recent times - that meant no great changes and a steady and unthanked task of rebuilding the party infrastructure and grass roots right accross the country- this he has achieved and that is no mean feat if you know anything about party organisation and the dire-straits the party was in 2002

Hmm. It would not be the only Irish party that was in that position in 2002, I think.

Edo wrote:

- the 2007 election was a vindication of this and has secured him his leadership and now we can move onto stage 2

I'm still not quite convinced, I fear. The 2007 election was a real heave to try and get rid of FF...perhaps FG will be able to build on that momentum, and I think they're currently doing a fairly good job of that. However, the heave failed, after everyone had put their eggs in the FG basket. That may tell against them next time - the voters may go back to voting for the minor parties on the expectation that they will be determining who is in government with FF.

Edo wrote:

- its already started with a widespread review of our policies and what vision we can present to the nation in 4 years time - and it will be 4 years time - this current coalition is in for the long run so we have plenty of time to get on with this - it wont be visible for a while yet - this takes time and currently all you will see is the window dressing of the tribunal and the run of the mill opposition speak - but underneath the wheels are in motion - I had a great chat with Alan Dukes at the Presidential dinner last autumn and am delighted to see he is getting involved in this process in regard to health - I,myself am looking forward to getting involved in the economic,trade and environmental think ins and debates - those being the issues closest to my heart and as the shipping manager and waste disposal officer in the export company I work for - feel I have some competence in.

Dont give up on us Ibis! - we know what we have to do now - and there is a steely determination within the party to ask the hard questions of ourselves and where we are going and I hope in the coming years - people will be pleasantly surprised at what results.

Give up? I'm a Green voter...never been able to afford to give up. A revitalised FG that looks like a government in waiting may be able to do it. Hopefully we can avoid the chicken-counting thing next time!

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

Gráinne Caruth has been asked to go home and ask herself some searching questions before coming back into the tribunal tomorrow after contradicting evidence given by Blair Hughes this morning. Big doo-doo

Colm Keena was on Morning Ireland this morning about it. It looks like the massive tissue of complication could finally be falling apart - Keena said Caruth was in bits yesterday at the Tribunal and she's back today.

Today's Independent.
TAOISEACH Bertie Ahern's former private secretary broke down in the
witness box yesterday as she sensationally admitted giving untrue
evidence to the Mahon Tribunal last December.

Presiding judge Alan Mahon told Ms Carruth that she should look at
the building society documentation overnight and talk to her solicitor,
"so that you will be quite clear in your mind as to your position in
relation to your evidence".Earlier, Blair Hughes, manager of the
building society, said he recalled Ms Carruth making sterling
conversions and subsequent lodgements at his branch.


Endgame approaching..

Also someone did a wiki on it Mahon Wiki if anyone wants to try to catch up, the link is also in the header.

Just listening to Michael Clifford reporting from tribunal



Timmmmmber!

Clifford is covering it this morning on the PK show and Myles Dungan said it - this is the first time that anyone admitted to it being sterling. Still Gráinne Caruth could today still manage a 'In all probability ' caveat. Fighting it out to the last.

Now this one card should bring the house down, shouldn't it? I wonder what the process is? Gardaí, criminal court...?

(or am I jumping the gun?)

Is 2008 the year we got the big one?

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Is 2008 the year we got the big one?

There has been the smell of fish around since the Spring last year with red herrings popping up left right and centre around his digout and Wall stories. Who does he think he's codding?

I hope Mahon gives him a good battering.

Bertie is 'amach mar bhreac' (to continue the theme) I didn't know you were the spawn of Richard Whitely

I can have empathy for anyone staring down the barrel of a gun as Ms. Carruth is but when you get up on that wave and eventually fall off, you cant go cryin' I want to go home. Saying that Bertie is some friend to have when push comes to shove. If I was the hubby Id be round to his gaff with a few of my own mates

Good puns lads, on a scale of 1-10, 8.

It looks like 'La Fin' for Ahern. I wouldn't swap plaices with him for any amount of sterling.

Seriously though, I wonder has bertieahernisfucked.com been registered already?

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Good puns lads, on a scale of 1-10, 8.

It looks like 'La Fin' for Ahern. I wouldn't swap plaices with him for any amount of sterling.

Seriously though, I wonder has bertieahernisfucked.com been registered already?

Roe back on those comments....

Yes indeed I will get my coat

quickening footsteps......*door slam*

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Good puns lads, on a scale of 1-10, 8.

It looks like 'La Fin' for Ahern. I wouldn't swap plaices with him for any amount of sterling.

Seriously though, I wonder has bertieahernisfucked.com been registered already?

Roe back on those comments....

Well, now I'm reluctant to Wade in here for fear of muddying the waters.