Rendition, Torture and Government Hypocrisy

Minister for Foreign Affairs Michaél Martin, like an advanced alzheimer's patient, today announced that:

Michaél Martin wrote:

Torture is among the very worst violations of human rights and human dignity, It may inflict terrible physical pain, but can also have devastating emotional and psychological effects.

After spouting his hypocrisy, without choking on his words, he asked that other countries sign up to the International Convention Against Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. This was said to mark the UN's international day to support victims of torture.

In Shannon Warport meanwhile, many jets associated with the CIA, Extraordinary Rendition and hence torture, regularly go about their not-so merry way, unhindered by anyone who has the authority and responsibility to prevent torture. Evidence, forensic and otherwise of kidnap and torture is routinely allowed to bypass our committment and adherence to international law.

Assurances from the torturers is enough for us to reassure ourselves falsely that we are not party to torture. I wonder if Mr Martin and the rest of the international alzheimer's group he covers for have ever thought to ask the torturers what countries in Europe have they flown kidnap victims through - rather than asking the opposite.

Two words for Mr. Martin: "fuck" and "you." Stick em in any order you like.

The people down here in Clare don't give a fuck either, for shame. They talk about anything saving the airport regardless of the morality - it's terrible. People seem to strongly suspect what is going on but they fail to make the connection and their mental scales get unbalanced by the American millions.

We're suckers down here, pure bloody suckers.

Quote :

their mental scales get unbalanced by the American millions.

I'd say it's even more parochial than that and more short term and utterly mé féin. And possibly borne out of a degree of (wilful?) ignorance. It's similar in a way to the attitude towards centres of excellence for cancer care. Those who don't (won't) understand them, don't want them. They'd rather have a substandard service in their own local area than let it go. They'll cling like limpets to something that's far less than it should be, simply because it's theirs.

There was a march in Portlaoise a couple of weeks ago about keeping the cancer services - which had been gone since mid April I think without anyone noticing. It was poorly attended but it amazes me that people are still peddling myths that keeping 'our' service for 'our town' is better than improving outcomes or saving lives - and I feel the same when I hear Clare councillors talking about jobs in Shannon. Utter cowardly, self-serving, short-sighted, mean-spirited bullshit.

The torture planes support no jobs in Shannon. The jobs argument might have some limited relevance to the troop transport business.

Helium Three wrote:

The torture planes support no jobs in Shannon. The jobs argument might have some limited relevance to the troop transport business.

Someone quoted a statistic there recently saying how much packages of duty-free fags the americans bought last year and how great it was for the local economy.

People just ain't no good.

Can you remember how many packets it was? Even an approximate figure?

Quote :

It says Shannon has received more than 27m euros ($32.5m; £18.6m) from the US government in 2005 alone.

I can only see that turnover as a benefit of war. To harp on about neutrality is therfore hypocritical in my book.

Hermes wrote:

.....In Shannon Warport meanwhile, many jets associated with the CIA, Extraordinary Rendition and hence torture, regularly go about their not-so merry way, unhindered by anyone who has the authority and responsibility to prevent torture.....

Is there actual evidence to support this or is it just something that everybody knows.

There's plenty of evidence to support it. And everyone knows.

Hermes wrote:

There's plenty of evidence to support it. And everyone knows.

So do you have any links (not Indymedia please), reports, photographs or anything along those lines.

I have loads of links, photographs, videos, audio recordings and tonnes of other evidence.

I'm not going to the bother of posting them. It seems to me that you're well aware that CIA planes associated with rendition have been landing in Shannon (and elsewhere) and indeed that they continue to do so.

What exactly is it that I've said that you're taking issue with, so that I might help you?

Sorry to hear you're not a fan of Indymedia.

Lestat wrote:

So do you have any links (not Indymedia please), reports, photographs or anything along those lines.

Ah sure, here's the sort of thing you like:
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=nrmbojN3lbU

You do find Bertie convincing, don't you?

BTW, do you know how many planes have been searched in Shannon?

Lestat wrote:

Hermes wrote:

There's plenty of evidence to support it. And everyone knows.

So do you have any links (not Indymedia please), reports, photographs or anything along those lines.

Do you believe that film Rendition starring Donnie Darko as the evil CIA man who has a Waltons John-Boy hidden deep down inside him when he sees the slight discomfort caused to the victim during Waterboarding?

Even if this is not going on via Shannon then a regime which is doing it whereever shouldn't be welcome in any country which considers itself an observer of Right and Justice.

No way José.


( a bit off topic but I found it when looking at Soubresauts link
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=vcR2MGzmn3o&feature=related ... )

Here's two videos from a guy with the tag name of "Jack_Hammer." He's only recently started to post on Live Leak and is rapidly becoming something of a sensation. Even the trolls love him.

Your man is cool above alright - here's the General he was talking about
Taguba, the New York Times

I was thinking earlier, could the Bushfeld clique have used the Terrorism, Patriot Act cak in order to quieten their own people ? Americans have exploded in raging waves of sovereign defence previously and with so many of them armed to the ganglions and the handiness of the internet for organising mobilisations, couldn't the Administration have taken steps to quell uprisings and ...

No ? it's cloud cuckoo-land time anyway for me in case I'm dreaming out loud ..



Good night and good luck !

Nice link Audi. Here's another one that's got some very interesting reading material embedded in it: LINK

I'd like to see how Mr Michaél Martin, or any of the rest of the accessories to international war crimes, would respond to the above article and embedded links, and indeed, how they'd like to justify the continued use of our airports and airspace to facilitate these grevious crimes against humanity and decency.

Audi wrote:

I was thinking earlier, could the Bushfeld clique have used the
Terrorism, Patriot Act cak in order to quieten their own people ?
Americans have exploded in raging waves of sovereign defence previously
and with so many of them armed to the ganglions and the handiness of
the internet for organising mobilisations, couldn't the Administration
have taken steps to quell uprisings and ...

No ? it's cloud cuckoo-land time anyway for me in case I'm dreaming out loud ..

Tis very far from cuckoo-land. Check out this article that I wrote last September (fully fact checked), it gives some idea of the big con: LINK

Here's another piece that gives some scope of Irish involvement in international war crimes: LINK

Hermes wrote:

I have loads of links, photographs, videos, audio recordings and tonnes of other evidence.

I'm not going to the bother of posting them.

That's convenient.

Hermes wrote:

Sorry to hear you're not a fan of Indymedia.

Outside of it's own circle Indymedia is considered a bit of a joke.

soubresauts wrote:

BTW, do you know how many planes have been searched in Shannon?

None, I'd imagine.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Do you believe that film Rendition starring Donnie Darko as the evil CIA man ...

If it's on television, it must be true.

Hermes wrote:

Here's two videos from a guy with the tag name of "Jack_Hammer." He's only recently started to post on Live Leak and is rapidly becoming something of a sensation. Even the trolls love him.

Well Jack doesn't like George Bush but he really didn't reveal anything new did he? And he certainly didn't mention Shannon Airport.

Hermes wrote:

Tis very far from cuckoo-land. Check out this article that I wrote last September (fully fact checked), it gives some idea of the big con: LINK

Here's another piece that gives some scope of Irish involvement in international war crimes: LINK

Oh dear, the mandatory Indymedia links.

Lestat wrote:

Hermes wrote:

I have loads of links, photographs, videos, audio recordings and tonnes of other evidence.

I'm not going to the bother of posting them.

That's convenient.

Hermes wrote:

Sorry to hear you're not a fan of Indymedia.

Outside of it's own circle Indymedia is considered a bit of a joke.

soubresauts wrote:

BTW, do you know how many planes have been searched in Shannon?

None, I'd imagine.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Do you believe that film Rendition starring Donnie Darko as the evil CIA man ...

If it's on television, it must be true.

Hermes wrote:

Here's two videos from a guy with the tag name of "Jack_Hammer." He's only recently started to post on Live Leak and is rapidly becoming something of a sensation. Even the trolls love him.

Well Jack doesn't like George Bush but he really didn't reveal anything new did he? And he certainly didn't mention Shannon Airport.

Hermes wrote:

Tis very far from cuckoo-land. Check out this article that I wrote last September (fully fact checked), it gives some idea of the big con: LINK

Here's another piece that gives some scope of Irish involvement in international war crimes: LINK

Oh dear, the mandatory Indymedia links.

Well Lestat, I am certainly not in "the circle of" Indymedia, but I would take its contents on the merits of each piece as I would any other form of reporting.
Anyone on a search for uniformly objective and informative journalism would have a long trudge ahead of them. I think it would be unwarranted to write off all Indymedia reports as it operates on an open access basis. On the one occasion I read a report on it on a matter on which I had extensive verifiable information I found the Indymedia report to be thorough, well researched and informative.

Here is a link to an RTE report regarding an Amnesty International report on rendition planes passing through Shannon. Amnesty International is a reputable organisation for many years, with a good track record in terms of investigation and reporting.

The government response that "no one has presented them with any evidence" is unsurprising, given that no one has looked in the planes. Are they wanting men in orange boiler suits to write to them with details of their flight numbers?


http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0624/rendition.html

In great fairness to you Lestat, you should be illustrating your own points with fact based posts. Your critique of my posts, or any other for that matter, based solely upon your own opinion is neither welcome nor helpful. Particularly when you have yet to show why your opinion should have any value.

I've no problem with you anouncing that I'm wrong, so long as you back your opinions up with fact-based material. Sneering doesn't cut it. If you were to prove me wrong in anything I've said, you'd be doing me a favour and I'd thank you for it.

I'd appreciate it greatly if you'd quit the infantile superiority game that you're playing and pull yourself back down to earth to discuss issues with your peers with manners that warrant a considered and serious response.

cactus flower wrote:

Are they wanting men in orange boiler suits to write to them with details of their flight numbers?

It's unlikely that men in orange boiler suits would know the flight numbers. But a sighting of a man in an orange boiler suit at Shannon might be a start.

Hermes wrote:

In great fairness to you Lestat, you should be illustrating your own points with fact based posts.

I only know one fact. There is no real evidence that rendition flights have ever stopped off at Shannon airport. What Indymedia or Amnesty International believes or claims to know is irrelevant.

Hermes wrote:

Your critique of my posts, or any other for that matter, based solely upon your own opinion is neither welcome nor helpful. Particularly when you have yet to show why your opinion should have any value.

Why. Am I not entitled to my opinion? Did I say that your opinion is valueless, unwelcome and unhelpful? No, I just said that you have no evidence to back up your opinion. Nevertheless you are entitled to believe what you believe.

Hermes wrote:

I've no problem with you anouncing that I'm wrong, so long as you back your opinions up with fact-based material. Sneering doesn't cut it. If you were to prove me wrong in anything I've said, you'd be doing me a favour and I'd thank you for it.

I'd appreciate it greatly if you'd quit the infantile superiority game that you're playing and pull yourself back down to earth to discuss issues with your peers with manners that warrant a considered and serious response.

So what you are looking for is proof that rendition flights through Shannon do not exist when there is no proof that they exist to begin with.

Lestat wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Are they wanting men in orange boiler suits to write to them with details of their flight numbers?

It's unlikely that men in orange boiler suits would know the flight numbers. But a sighting of a man in an orange boiler suit at Shannon might be a start.

Hermes wrote:

In great fairness to you Lestat, you should be illustrating your own points with fact based posts.

I only know one fact. There is no real evidence that rendition flights have ever stopped off at Shannon airport. What Indymedia or Amnesty International believes or claims to know is irrelevant.

Hermes wrote:

Your critique of my posts, or any other for that matter, based solely upon your own opinion is neither welcome nor helpful. Particularly when you have yet to show why your opinion should have any value.

Why. Am I not entitled to my opinion? Did I say that your opinion is valueless, unwelcome and unhelpful? No, I just said that you have no evidence to back up your opinion. Nevertheless you are entitled to believe what you believe.

Hermes wrote:

I've no problem with you anouncing that I'm wrong, so long as you back your opinions up with fact-based material. Sneering doesn't cut it. If you were to prove me wrong in anything I've said, you'd be doing me a favour and I'd thank you for it.

I'd appreciate it greatly if you'd quit the infantile superiority game that you're playing and pull yourself back down to earth to discuss issues with your peers with manners that warrant a considered and serious response.

So what you are looking for is proof that rendition flights through Shannon do not exist when there is no proof that they exist to begin with.

I am going to repeat the point once more Lestat, that the whole point of the critique of the government is that they refuse to investigate allegations of illegal conduct and the only reason they give for that it that the accused party says they are innocent. If the evidence you are looking for depends on the Irish Government inspecting planes then I think you will have to ask them to do it. Some of us have already tried that without success.

I'm quoting here from a Council of Europe report,

"Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights -
Alleged secret detentions and unlawful inter-state
transfers involving Council of Europe member states" linked below.

http://assembly.coe.int/CommitteeDocs/2006/20060606_Ejdoc162006PartII-FINAL.pdf

Quote :

289. Some of these above mentioned states, and others, could be held responsible for collusion –
active or passive (in the sense of having tolerated or having been negligent in fulfilling the duty to
supervise) - involving secret detention and unlawful inter-state transfers of a non specified number of
persons whose identity so far remains unknown:
- Poland and Romania, concerning the running of secret detention centres;
- Germany, Turkey, Spain and Cyprus for being ’staging points’ for flights involving the unlawful
transfer of detainees;
- Ireland, the United Kingdom, Portugal, Greece and Italy for being ‘stopovers’ for flights involving
the unlawful transfer of detainees.

cactus flower wrote:

I am going to repeat the point once more Lestat, that the whole point of the critique of the government is that they refuse to investigate allegations of illegal conduct and the only reason they give for that it that the accused party says they are innocent.

Granted. But that in itself is not evidence of wrongdoing.

What would be the purpose of such an investigation anyway?

Lestat wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Are they wanting men in orange boiler suits to write to them with details of their flight numbers?

It's unlikely that men in orange boiler suits would know the flight numbers. But a sighting of a man in an orange boiler suit at Shannon might be a start.

Hermes wrote:

In great fairness to you Lestat, you should be illustrating your own points with fact based posts.

I only know one fact. There is no real evidence that rendition flights have ever stopped off at Shannon airport. What Indymedia or Amnesty International believes or claims to know is irrelevant.

Hermes wrote:

Your critique of my posts, or any other for that matter, based solely upon your own opinion is neither welcome nor helpful. Particularly when you have yet to show why your opinion should have any value.

Why. Am I not entitled to my opinion? Did I say that your opinion is valueless, unwelcome and unhelpful? No, I just said that you have no evidence to back up your opinion. Nevertheless you are entitled to believe what you believe.

Hermes wrote:

I've no problem with you anouncing that I'm wrong, so long as you back your opinions up with fact-based material. Sneering doesn't cut it. If you were to prove me wrong in anything I've said, you'd be doing me a favour and I'd thank you for it.

I'd appreciate it greatly if you'd quit the infantile superiority game that you're playing and pull yourself back down to earth to discuss issues with your peers with manners that warrant a considered and serious response.

So what you are looking for is proof that rendition flights through Shannon do not exist when there is no proof that they exist to begin with.

The reason you're bugging me Lestat, is that I've heard your particular 'critique' a thousand times, and to be very blunt and honest, I'm sick of it to the depth of my soul.

You're putting words in my mouth and then shooting down something that I've never said. What value should I place on your opinion?

I've never so much as hinted that any rendered prisoner was taken through Shannon - not once - never!

If I were to make such an allegation, I'd be making a charge I couldn't support with evidence. I've suspicions, that's true, but no hard evidence. What I have said about planes associated with rendition has been confirmed by many sources including our government. I suggest that you go back and actually read what I have written and let's start again.

Lestat wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

I am going to repeat the point once more Lestat, that the whole point of the critique of the government is that they refuse to investigate allegations of illegal conduct and the only reason they give for that it that the accused party says they are innocent.

Granted. But that in itself is not evidence of wrongdoing.

What would be the purpose of such an investigation anyway?

The second half of my last post made that clear.