Robert Mugabe; Is this Right -vs- Wrong?

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An agreement seems to have been struck between Tsvangirai's party and Zanu/PF, in which Mugabe will step back to a ceremonial role.

I don't know anything about Tsvangirai, but I hope this all works out well for Zimbabwe.

My concern is who the army will answer to. I'm not sure that Mugabe will give that power up, regardless of his ceremonial role. And I wonder whether the army will be happy to take orders from a man who wants to do things very differently, and in a way that may make their cushy role considerably less cushy and considerably more accountable.

The Zimbabwean army is not unlike the Irish civil service in that perhaps they are the ones really running the country.

But I hope it works out for Zimbabwe too.

you know its bad when members of mugabe's tribe flee to europe. i worked with a cousin (probably quite distant) who was a huge critic of the man.

you cannot overemphasise the importance of tribal culture in africa. everything tends to revert to that level, and most of the worst incidents in africa over the last century have been based in internecine tribal tensions (sometimes stoked by colonial powers).

i'm beginning to believe my afrikaans friends who say that western ideals do not hold sway in black africa.

zakalwe wrote:

you know its bad when members of mugabe's tribe flee to europe. i worked with a cousin (probably quite distant) who was a huge critic of the man.

you cannot overemphasise the importance of tribal culture in africa. everything tends to revert to that level, and most of the worst incidents in africa over the last century have been based in internecine tribal tensions (sometimes stoked by colonial powers).

i'm beginning to believe my afrikaans friends who say that western ideals do not hold sway in black africa.

Do they count the apartheid system as in tune with "western ideals"? It is very difficult to tell how Africa would be if it hadn't been carved up by colonial powers.

We really can't know how things are going to go in Zimbabwe with this agreement, but its my view that it is worth a try, and the option worked on by Mbeki at least provides the possibility of a peaceful evolution. If troops had been sent in, as many were arguing for, imo it could have lead to civil war and a lot of bloodshed and would have been used to Mugabe to rally support.

And also importantly, the African States are engaged in trying to solve these things independently and should be let do so.

zakalwe wrote:

you know its bad when members of mugabe's tribe flee to europe. i worked with a cousin (probably quite distant) who was a huge critic of the man.

you cannot overemphasise the importance of tribal culture in africa. everything tends to revert to that level, and most of the worst incidents in africa over the last century have been based in internecine tribal tensions (sometimes stoked by colonial powers).

i'm beginning to believe my afrikaans friends who say that western ideals do not hold sway in black africa.

I've heard a Kuwati say much the same about the Arabian Peninsula.

cookiemonster wrote:

zakalwe wrote:

you know its bad when members of mugabe's tribe flee to europe. i worked with a cousin (probably quite distant) who was a huge critic of the man.

you cannot overemphasise the importance of tribal culture in africa. everything tends to revert to that level, and most of the worst incidents in africa over the last century have been based in internecine tribal tensions (sometimes stoked by colonial powers).

i'm beginning to believe my afrikaans friends who say that western ideals do not hold sway in black africa.

I've heard a Kuwati say much the same about the Arabian Peninsula.

And we've all read of the English saying it about the Irish.

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

zakalwe wrote:

you know its bad when members of mugabe's tribe flee to europe. i worked with a cousin (probably quite distant) who was a huge critic of the man.

you cannot overemphasise the importance of tribal culture in africa. everything tends to revert to that level, and most of the worst incidents in africa over the last century have been based in internecine tribal tensions (sometimes stoked by colonial powers).

i'm beginning to believe my afrikaans friends who say that western ideals do not hold sway in black africa.

I've heard a Kuwati say much the same about the Arabian Peninsula.

And we've all read of the English saying it about the Irish.

Recently?

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

zakalwe wrote:

you know its bad when members of mugabe's tribe flee to europe. i worked with a cousin (probably quite distant) who was a huge critic of the man.

you cannot overemphasise the importance of tribal culture in africa. everything tends to revert to that level, and most of the worst incidents in africa over the last century have been based in internecine tribal tensions (sometimes stoked by colonial powers).

i'm beginning to believe my afrikaans friends who say that western ideals do not hold sway in black africa.

I've heard a Kuwati say much the same about the Arabian Peninsula.

And we've all read of the English saying it about the Irish.

Recently?

Every time a bomb went off. And before, and since.

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

zakalwe wrote:

you know its bad when members of mugabe's tribe flee to europe. i worked with a cousin (probably quite distant) who was a huge critic of the man.

you cannot overemphasise the importance of tribal culture in africa. everything tends to revert to that level, and most of the worst incidents in africa over the last century have been based in internecine tribal tensions (sometimes stoked by colonial powers).

i'm beginning to believe my afrikaans friends who say that western ideals do not hold sway in black africa.

I've heard a Kuwati say much the same about the Arabian Peninsula.

And we've all read of the English saying it about the Irish.

Recently?

Every time a bomb went off. And before, and since.

Ok then...

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

zakalwe wrote:

you know its bad when members of mugabe's tribe flee to europe. i worked with a cousin (probably quite distant) who was a huge critic of the man.

you cannot overemphasise the importance of tribal culture in africa. everything tends to revert to that level, and most of the worst incidents in africa over the last century have been based in internecine tribal tensions (sometimes stoked by colonial powers).

i'm beginning to believe my afrikaans friends who say that western ideals do not hold sway in black africa.

I've heard a Kuwati say much the same about the Arabian Peninsula.

And we've all read of the English saying it about the Irish.

Recently?

Every time a bomb went off. And before, and since.

Ok then...

Have you lived in England ever cookiemonster - you don't wipe out the old colonial attitudes overnight. They are still hauling out the old Punch cartoons.

cactus flower wrote:

Have you lived in England ever cookiemonster - you don't wipe out the old colonial attitudes overnight. They are still hauling out the old Punch cartoons.

Well half my family are English, but I can't say I am insulated from the colonial attitude. But my point was that you also have Arabs saying much the same thing about themselves. Kuwait was never a colonial power over Saudi Arabia or Oman.

Perhaps nation-state ideals over tribal (or traditional) ideals would be a better fit?

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Have you lived in England ever cookiemonster - you don't wipe out the old colonial attitudes overnight. They are still hauling out the old Punch cartoons.

Well half my family are English, but I can't say I am insulated from the colonial attitude. But my point was that you also have Arabs saying much the same thing about themselves. Kuwait was never a colonial power over Saudi Arabia or Oman.

The Kuwaitis don't think the Saudis have Western values ? I suppose not. But to return a bit closer to topic, these attitudes seem to be ubiquitous, not just something to do with Africa, which is where we started off.

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Have you lived in England ever cookiemonster - you don't wipe out the old colonial attitudes overnight. They are still hauling out the old Punch cartoons.

Well half my family are English, but I can't say I am insulated from the colonial attitude. But my point was that you also have Arabs saying much the same thing about themselves. Kuwait was never a colonial power over Saudi Arabia or Oman.

The Kuwaitis don't think the Saudis have Western values ? I suppose not. But to return a bit closer to topic, these attitudes seem to be ubiquitous, not just something to do with Africa, which is where we started off.

Kuwaitis don't think western values would work very well on the Arabian peninsula because of the strongly tribal nature of the people.

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Have you lived in England ever cookiemonster - you don't wipe out the old colonial attitudes overnight. They are still hauling out the old Punch cartoons.

Well half my family are English, but I can't say I am insulated from the colonial attitude. But my point was that you also have Arabs saying much the same thing about themselves. Kuwait was never a colonial power over Saudi Arabia or Oman.

The Kuwaitis don't think the Saudis have Western values ? I suppose not. But to return a bit closer to topic, these attitudes seem to be ubiquitous, not just something to do with Africa, which is where we started off.

Kuwaitis don't think western values would work very well on the Arabian peninsula because of the strongly tribal nature of the people.

Ah...

905 wrote:

Perhaps nation-state ideals over tribal (or traditional) ideals would be a better fit?

The problem is the countries are often artificial. They are lines on maps and in Africa have little to do with geography or tribal affiliations.

Africa is intensely tribal, and the body politic often fundamentally corrupt. In such circumstances how do you make the various groupings work together when come every election politicians stir up their local (tribal) support. Democracy often heightens division. If you doubt this look at the North.

Agree that Arabia is also a region of tribal loyalties. Remember the tale of Laurence of Arabia.