Cowen and FF to ignore referendum result?

Art wrote:

The Lisbon Treaty is dead. During the campaign I noticed a
huge rise in nationalism in Ireland and a lot of little islander comments i.e.
the EU needs us more than we need them etc. I felt the people celebrating in
Dublin Castle were dancing on the grave of the Celtic tiger and happily hoping
the country was regressing to a more insular time. This is the road that Sinn
Fein are trying to lead us down with their lies and I feel the country will
suffer consequences. We are not the center of the world and if we want
to retreat into our shells that’s our issue, it shouldn’t and won’t stop the
other 26 countries from ploughing ahead with reforms without us. The idea that
490 million people will stop trying to improve the EU because most Irish people
couldn’t be arsed trying to understand the treaty is silly.

Our posts crossed Art. I noticed the same and there is the same in England and France. There is a fair bit of racism. There are young thugs on the roam. Then there is Libertas. This is all very dodgy against a background of economic slide and uncertainty. After long hard thought though I came to the conclusion that none of that made the Treaty right or acceptable. There is every probability that without the Treaty some other cause would have been found by the same people.

This may be a last chance to hammer some democracy into the EU structures.

Maybe it is but it’s a huge gamble and if we pull it off we
will have lost any goodwill towards us. I think the secret of our success ito date in
the EU was that we formed alliances with allies with common interests. At the
moment we are all alone and will suffer for it.




At one time it was said that we had to choose between Boston or Berlin. Maybe some of the no side think they are now choosing Boston. But its not possible because the US would have no interest in us if we weren’t in the
EU.

Art wrote:

At the
moment we are all alone and will suffer for it.

We are not alone, the UK would reject the treaty if put to a referendum, the Austrians would more than likely have rejected it at a referendum and the French and Dutch rejected Version 1 of this Treaty. 66% of Die Welt readers polled think that the Treaty should be re-negotiated on foot of this while only 5% think that Ireland should leave. We are far from alone in rejecting the Treaty.

Politically we are
alone. The other countries won’t be putting it to a vote and therefore the
opinion poll figures are meaningless.

Interestingly we have shown that a parliament is probably the best way to decide
on complex matters like this. Most people I know who voted 'No' had no idea
what the treaty was about and didn’t attempt to find out. They said they were to busy, most all made time to watch The Apprentice though.

Art wrote:

Politically we are
alone. The other countries won’t be putting it to a vote and therefore the
opinion poll figures are meaningless.

Interestingly we have shown that a parliament is probably the best way to decide
on complex matters like this. Most people I know who voted 'No' had no idea
what the treaty was about and didn’t attempt to find out. They said they were to busy, most all made time to watch The Apprentice though.

Would you be saying this if the Yes side won? Do you think you would have lost faith in the referendum process if it had turned out a Yes victory?

Art wrote:

Interestingly we have shown that a parliament is probably the best way to decide on complex matters like this. Most people I know who voted 'No' had no idea what the treaty was about and didn’t attempt to find out. They said they were to busy, most all made time to watch The Apprentice though.

It's not a complex matter like something that needs a quick decision, in my vew - this Treaty is/was the establishment of a new community - that's in the first few lines. Don't you think with such a massive project that it shouldn't have been more inclusive and public during the negotiation process? It took the Northern Troubles 30 years to come to a conclusion through talks, blood and bitterness and these arrogant suits feel they can establish some rules in eight years which would keep a bunch of countries happy for the following 80 ??

No one was consulted all along, there was no transparency or openness and come the day we were given a Treaty that, up until early this year had been unequivocally unreadable to all and still is for many today.

So they took 8 years of negotiations to write the equivalent of the small print on an insurance policy. Very readable that, thanks.

Following on Auditors thoughts, can I ask - do people regard a re-negotiation as being equivalent to just rerunning Lisbon? In other words what sort of renegotiation would it take for those with issues to be comfortable that their concerns had been addressed? Would clear opt-outs on Defence, Corporate Taxation, etc do it, or would it require more? And if so how much? And how long?

Or what if the 26 do decide to go ahead without us. How, or in what way, could we catch up with them?

WorldbyStorm wrote:

Following on Auditors thoughts, can I ask - do people regard a re-negotiation as being equivalent to just rerunning Lisbon? In other words what sort of renegotiation would it take for those with issues to be comfortable that their concerns had been addressed? Would clear opt-outs on Defence, Corporate Taxation, etc do it, or would it require more? And if so how much? And how long?

But aren't we supposed to have received those opt-outs? We got concessions on tax, abortion, neutrality, our legal system and so on. What can we ask for know? We secured the full package when Lisbon/Constitution was being drafted. I fail to see where we can make substantive changes in order to have another referendum. I feel we have perhaps hit a brick wall.

WorldbyStorm wrote:

Following on Auditors thoughts, can I ask - do people regard a re-negotiation as being equivalent to just rerunning Lisbon? In other words what sort of renegotiation would it take for those with issues to be comfortable that their concerns had been addressed? Would clear opt-outs on Defence, Corporate Taxation, etc do it, or would it require more? And if so how much? And how long?

Or what if the 26 do decide to go ahead without us. How, or in what way, could we catch up with them?

The 26 decided yesterday

Okay, let's put this a different way. What if the commissioner situation was resolved, that appeared to have played well. So say it was 1 nation 1 Commissioner... would that be sufficient to break through the wall, given even clearer opt-outs?

Or is this definitely a situation where the (other) 26 will race off ahead?

Of course another tack would be to beef up the neutrality issue in the Irish Constitution simultaneous to any renegotiated Treaty. I can't say I'd care either way personally. But I am keen to get a handle on what are the baselines for further progress and what would shift No's to Yes...

WorldbyStorm wrote:

Okay, let's put this a different way. What if the commissioner situation was resolved, that appeared to have played well. So say it was 1 nation 1 Commissioner... would that be sufficient to break through the wall, given even clearer opt-outs?

Perhaps if we got the 1 nation, 1 commissioner as a deal(this would play well with all states, they don't want to be away from the commission 5 out 15 years either), got unequivocal opt-outs on the issues the No side harangued about and got a bloody good campaign from the Yes side with proper posters and a proper canvass. Then I could see a Yes vote in another plebiscite.

Can I ask would you see that as legitimate? Would that be enough concessions to the No side?

Incidentally, I think you're dead right about the lack of a canvass. This was in many respects Nice 1 all over, but with all the stored anger at the government (and interestingly Fine Gael) for their deficiencies plus the aftertaste of Nice II. In a way I'm astounded that they thought that it was possible to run another EU centred referendum so soon after Nice II and not face considerable protest, however inchoate.

All I have seen today is Yes people saying the voters are too dumb to make this decision and it should be left to politicians like the other countries. This attitude of we are smart and know what is good for ye is why the Yes side lost. Who in their right mind would trust these people.
The new fear is that the rest will move on. Let them off and let the Yes voters go with them if the want. The vision of a democratic Europe didn't last long did it. Yesterday there was no plan b but today we have plan c, d and e.
I am happy because their true nature is being exposed to more each day.

It's the peasant revolution. How else would the establishment react?

By blaming Sinn Féin on one hand and Ganley the next.

Good news for the Ganley haters the establishment's former friends are the first for the chop

God I've a feeling you're right Seathrún - it felt like that recently ! If this mood stays set in then yes, maybe we'll see a Place de la Concorde in Brussels or elsewhere with liberal flows of the red stuff (good quality EU wine)

On the other hand youngdan is dead right when he says this

Quote :

All I have seen today is Yes people saying the voters are too dumb to make this decision and it should be left to politicians like the other countries. This attitude of we are smart and know what is good for ye is why the Yes side lost. Who in their right mind would trust these people.

- echoing Mickey Martin this morning when he acknowledged a 'disconnect' between the people and politics. But in the end of the day I believe Ard Taoiseach could be right here - there'll be a few adjustments, it won't look as bad, it'll be repackaged and sent back to us for our stamp of approval and we'll happily apply the vaseline ourselves before we bend over.

Up the Raa !

http://breakingnews.ie/world/mhgbojsncwsn/

Quote :

The UK's Foreign Secretary David Miliband said tonight that Britain would press ahead with ratification of the Lisbon Treaty despite the “no” vote in the referendum in the Republic of Ireland.

Irish voters stunned Europe’s leaders and brought the ratification process shuddering to a halt, voting by 53.4% to 46.6% to reject the treaty.

As jubilant ’No’ campaigners celebrated in Dublin, the Tories said that the treaty should now finally be declared dead and called on Gordon Brown to abandon ratification by the UK.

But Mr Miliband said that while it was important to respect the Irish result, there should also be a “British view” on the treaty, as expressed in the ratification bill currently going through Parliament.

“I think it is right that we follow the view that each country must see the ratification process to a conclusion,” he said.

“I believe it is right that we continue with our process and take up the Irish offer of further discussions about the next steps forward.”

Looking at it from the outside is always difficult in the same way as Irish posters following politics here can sometimes draw conclusions that are absurd. With that in mind I question the entire reason to have a FG party. Can someone give me one difference between them.
This could progress to a point where there is a growing number who recognise the EU for what it is. It is to centralise power in the hands of a few. Central banking allows for the creation of money to buy off the people in the early stages and the resultant inflation is understood by few. Now the power grab will be more overt and the spinners like NDS will have to earn his pay.
The big winners today are Sinn Fein and even with their economic ideas I would be hard pressed not to vote for them. What is needed is a Nationalist party with free market economics but Ireland is so dependent on the hand out this is unlikely.

Auditor #9 wrote:

God I've a feeling you're right Seathrún - it felt like that recently ! If this mood stays set in then yes, maybe we'll see a Place de la Concorde in Brussels or elsewhere with liberal flows of the red stuff (good quality EU wine)

On the other hand youngdan is dead right when he says this

Quote :

All I have seen today is Yes people saying the voters are too dumb to make this decision and it should be left to politicians like the other countries. This attitude of we are smart and know what is good for ye is why the Yes side lost. Who in their right mind would trust these people.

- echoing Mickey Martin this morning when he acknowledged a 'disconnect' between the people and politics. But in the end of the day I believe Ard Taoiseach could be right here - there'll be a few adjustments, it won't look as bad, it'll be repackaged and sent back to us for our stamp of approval and we'll happily apply the vaseline ourselves before we bend over.

Up the Raa !

Think of Wat Tyler

Quote :

Looking at it from the outside is always difficult in the same way as Irish posters following politics here can sometimes draw conclusions that are absurd. With that in mind I question the entire reason to have a FG party. Can someone give me one difference between them.

Hello youngdan.

That one needs a thread entirely of its own. I'm sure Edo will have some answers for you; the only one I can think of is that we seem to feel the need for a sqeaky clean and slightly seamy version of more or less the same thing.

Quote :

This could progress to a point where there is a growing number who recognise the EU for what it is. It is to centralise power in the hands of a few. Central banking allows for the creation of money to buy off the people in the early stages and the resultant inflation is understood by few. Now the power grab will be more overt and the spinners like NDS will have to earn his pay.

Lord but that's rather cynical, isn't it?

Quote :

The big winners today are Sinn Fein and even with their economic ideas I would be hard pressed not to vote for them. What is needed is a Nationalist party with free market economics but Ireland is so dependent on the hand out this is unlikely.

I couldn't agree with you less. Sinn Féin were not winners. Defeating something is not a victory - not in my eyes. They simply prevented the other side from winning. Apart from that, Sinn Féin are not responsible for the No vote. Many, many who voted no would not align themselves with SF - or Libertas, or Cóir for that matter.

Kate P wrote:

Quote :

Looking at it from the outside is always difficult in the same way as Irish posters following politics here can sometimes draw conclusions that are absurd. With that in mind I question the entire reason to have a FG party. Can someone give me one difference between them.

Hello youngdan.

That one needs a thread entirely of its own. I'm sure Edo will have some answers for you; the only one I can think of is that we seem to feel the need for a sqeaky clean and slightly seamy version of more or less the same thing.

Quote :

This could progress to a point where there is a growing number who recognise the EU for what it is. It is to centralise power in the hands of a few. Central banking allows for the creation of money to buy off the people in the early stages and the resultant inflation is understood by few. Now the power grab will be more overt and the spinners like NDS will have to earn his pay.

Lord but that's rather cynical, isn't it?

Quote :

The big winners today are Sinn Fein and even with their economic ideas I would be hard pressed not to vote for them. What is needed is a Nationalist party with free market economics but Ireland is so dependent on the hand out this is unlikely.

I couldn't agree with you less. Sinn Féin were not winners. Defeating something is not a victory - not in my eyes. They simply prevented the other side from winning. Apart from that, Sinn Féin are not responsible for the No vote. Many, many who voted no would not align themselves with SF - or Libertas, or Cóir for that matter.

You might not want that to be true but they certainly had a big say in the no vote. Check out the stats for their strongest constituencies and the strongest 'no' dáilcheantair

I do not believe any good will come of the no vote.

The vast majority of the No vote is distrustful of "foreigners" and
blames them for their loss of jobs in the sector I work in,
construction. The youngest voters believe that Ireland's
prosperity was always there and have no more deeper understanding of
the groundwork that built up the Celtic Tiger than someone pulling on a
Glasgow Celtic jersey before an old firm match.

Someone like me who grew up seeing the transformation that Europe made
to Ireland and whose every instinct screamed "yes" on every European
referendum here but would have to painstakingly construct an argument
to convince anyone who did not share that frame of reference is
completely wasting their time trying to change anyone else's mind, so I
am going to stop now.

Ronald Binge wrote:

I do not believe any good will come of the no vote.

The vast majority of the No vote is distrustful of "foreigners" and
blames them for their loss of jobs in the sector I work in,
construction. The youngest voters believe that Ireland's
prosperity was always there and have no more deeper understanding of
the groundwork that built up the Celtic Tiger than someone pulling on a
Glasgow Celtic jersey before an old firm match.

Someone like me who grew up seeing the transformation that Europe made
to Ireland and whose every instinct screamed "yes" on every European
referendum here but would have to painstakingly construct an argument
to convince anyone who did not share that frame of reference is
completely wasting their time trying to change anyone else's mind, so I
am going to stop now.

You should be in the Síbín Reoite, Donal Binger

Well nobody would predict that I would too close to SF but in this instance I think they had a milestone day. I could be wrong but it makes sense that those who voted today are politically active and would be fans of one of the parties. Yet 53% thought their party was not being straight/wise and went against them. If subsequent actions now show that their gut feeling was correct then a certain proportion will scratch their heads when they see FF for example standing saluting the flag and singing the Anthem while at the same time urging a federal Europe. There has got to be a limit to the amount of mullarky these party drones will swallow.
An interesting comment I saw today was why we need a Europe flag on a license plate. A simple thing but it strikes an important nerve.

youngdan wrote:

Well nobody would predict that I would too close to SF but in this instance I think they had a milestone day. I could be wrong but it makes sense that those who voted today are politically active and would be fans of one of the parties. Yet 53% thought their party was not being straight/wise and went against them. If subsequent actions now show that their gut feeling was correct then a certain proportion will scratch their heads when they see FF for example standing saluting the flag and singing the Anthem while at the same time urging a federal Europe. There has got to be a limit to the amount of mullarky these party drones will swallow.
An interesting comment I saw today was why we need a Europe flag on a license plate. A simple thing but it strikes an important nerve.

When the establishment is rejected , it is rejected. I believe that the anti-Sinn Féin guff , if not a thing of the past will quickly become the sole preserve of the pro-treaty Fine Gael die hards. It didn't work for Inda on questions and answers. Sinn Féin are on a collision course with polite popularity