From Sans.org:
Home Affairs Committee Report Says UK Not a Surveillance Society (June 9, 2008) The UK House of Commons Home Affairs Committee has published a report titled "A Surveillance Society," which expresses the committee's opinion that the UK is not presently a surveillance society but could become one if policies regarding data collection and retention are not clearly established. The report recommends that "in the design of its policies and systems for collecting data, the Government should adopt a principle of data minimization: it should collect only what is essential, to be stored only for as long as is necessary."
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmhaff/58/58i.pdf
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/08/home_affairs_report_surveillance/print.html
http://www.heise-online.co.uk/security/UK-Parliament-rejects-surveillance-society-concept--/news/110875

David Davis MP resigns over erosion of Civil Liberties
From the BBC: In his resignation statement, Mr Davis attacked the growth of the "database state," government "snooping" and the destruction of civil liberties.

Ah, you beat me to that last post Zhou. Thank you for opening this thread. I am reading the links in your first post and will be back to this. It's an important topic.

I haven't read them myself and I don't know when I will get the time. A House of Commons report should be of high quality. I think it is an important topic for us and I think British resistance will inspire similar action here.

Not a surveillance society? Then how does that square with London being the CCTV capital of the world?

There are cameras everywhere in London. Of course it's a surveillance society, ordinary life isn't too far from Big Brother in the UK.

http://jya.com/echelon-dc.htm

Back in 1988 there was a US/UK programme being developed able to listen in to billions of telephone calls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGINT

Sigint and other forms of electronic listening in the north of Ireland has been pervasive and used as a tool for demoralisation in that it engendered suspicion of informing even when it was not taking place.

The British have wired everybody negotiating with them since the first wire was invented.

Relying on the DUP to bring in a 42 day detention without arrest did not seem to pose a problem to the British Labour Party.

IRISH TIMES:- There have been calls for reform of Irish and British surveillance laws after the European Court of Human Rights found that the UK had violated the right to privacy.

It's odd, I was listening to an Apple Mac techie kind of podcast the other day - one produced in the US. There was one panellist from the UK and they were discussing the recent decision in the US to spare ISPs from lawsuits due to some data tapping issues. But all the other US based panellists knew about the UK being the home of CCTV. Astounding I thought. What's also interesting is that it doesn't seem to have significantly impacted on - say - knife attacks and such like.

WorldbyStorm wrote:

What's also interesting is that it doesn't seem to have significantly impacted on - say - knife attacks and such like.

But does it produce greater detection rates? Anecdotally it would seem, going by media reporting, that there is a high degree of solving high profile violent crimes in the UK.

ah, good to see that Georgie is saving AT & T and Verizon some money ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/09/AR2008070901780.html?hpid=topnews


ie - "Senate Passes Surveillance Bill With Immunity for Telecoms Firms" to "effectively grant immunity from lawsuits to telecommunications companies that co-operated with the Bush administration's warrantless wiretapping program".

Much more surveillance and much less freedom of expression is what I predict in these dark economic days.
We need a thread on various things that are, or may impact on our capacity for example to link information to this site.

Well, I've decided this week to join Liberty, for whatever it's worth - I am thoroughly fed up with the way things are going here. Admittedly, the govt has just this week finally woken up to the fact that they have really gone too far inasmuch as enraging even those people who know nothing of Liberty (not meant patronisingly, heck Sharmi has mini-iconic status) - eg with the trial bugging of bins measuring the waste you throw out, the CCTV, the Council, the Health Authority etc etc. The govt has issued an advice to local councils telling them to cut back on the monitoring of local populations.

I will post some of the figures and proper details over the weekend, but we're talking the bin thing, the CCTV thing, the bugging of welfare recipients, the following of a parent to check if they definitely came within the correct catchment area for a particular school ... like I say, will dig out the figures when I have time over the weekend, but read a few weeks ago that something like 10 / 20+ (don't quote me on the figure yet but it genuinely was a lot different public or semi-public authorities actually have the powers to spy on us. I was completely dumbfounded.

Hopefully that 42-day detention nonsense has finally been sunk by Lady Manningham-Buller, former head of MI5 no less, who shredded the hateful thing the other day in her maiden speech.

The other link I wanted to post but haven't had time (working all hours at the moment) is the article from a recent Observer, where the EU has agreed a new visa program with the States, whereby huge chunks of personal info will be passed to the US prior to travelling there. Part of some visa-free travel agreement. Please post any addnl. info any of you have.
Has anyone had the contents of their laptop downloaded by Immigration yet, as I gather they either now or soon will be allowed to do?

I know most of what I have posted above relates to specific British or English situations, but - dare I say? - given that Ireland unfortunately tends to follow some of the worst traits of the UK ...

Plus this is a definite trend which was already there but was intensified by 9/11.

In relation to Atticus's post I think we should be looking at the EU moves on Immigration and European policing being pushed by Sarkozy. Does anyone have anything on them? Can't open a second window at the moment. Would anyone be able to link Eliza Manningham-Buller's maiden speech?

Checking Civil Liberties at the US border-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/10/terrorism.civilliberties

M.Buller -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jul/09/terrorism.police

M.-Buller speech on BBC tv here -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7494799.stm

johnfás wrote:

WorldbyStorm wrote:

What's also interesting is that it doesn't seem to have significantly impacted on - say - knife attacks and such like.

But does it produce greater detection rates? Anecdotally it would seem, going by media reporting, that there is a high degree of solving high profile violent crimes in the UK.

Not everyone agrees, apparently.

Atticus wrote:

M.-Buller speech on BBC tv here -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7494799.stm

Thanks Atticus. Best day's work she did in a long time.

Just to note that the Irish Government is continuing its policy of making it compulsory for certain citizens to keep other citizens under surveillance. "The Lives of Others" how are you?

First it was the phone companies being obliged to keep a track of our calls and the location of our mobiles for at least 3 years.

Now the publicans are bieng obliged to film us while we socialise:

Intoxicating Liquor Bill 2008 (since passed - final text not availbale on oireachas.ie):

"7 (2) The District Court may impose a condition, on giving a certificate referred to in subsection (1), relating to the installation, use or operation, or any combination thereof, of a closed circuit television system in respect of the premises concerned and, accordingly, if there is any failure to comply with such condition, such failure shall relate to the good character of the licensee for the purposes of the renewal under the Act of 1986 of the relevant off-licence concerned.

“10.—Section 5 (inserted by section 11 of the Act of 2003) of the Act of 1927 is amended—...
(b) by substituting the following subsections for subsection (4):...

'(4) A special exemption order—
(a) shall contain the following conditions:
....
(iv) that, in the case of a special occasion which does not fall within paragraph (a)(ii) of the definition of ‘special occasion’ in subsection (1), a closed circuit television system be in operation on the premises concerned during the course of the 30 special occasion;

(v) if subparagraph (iv) is applicable but the premises concerned do not have a closed circuit television system installed in them, that a closed circuit television system be 35 installed in them for the purposes of that subparagraph; and' "

The Irish Copyright Licensing Agency Ltd (a body with statutory status) uses the following clause in its business licensing agreement:

"ICLA may require the Licensee to participate in data acollection exercises, to establish the nature of the material copied by the Licensee.....In addition, ICLA may elect to conduct an information survey once per year. this survey shall consist of the logging of all copies of Licensed Material made by the Licensee over a period of one week....Unless compelled by a competent legal authority, ICLA shall not disclose...."

This could be very handy information for the facists and the snoops and those that would control opinion [how long before Sinn Fein get into Government?]. Once again the Government has put a private body (albeit with a statutory status) and private employees in control of this information. That should stop any abuses rebounding on the state!

I always feel like.... somebody's watching me.....

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

Just to note that the Irish Government is continuing its policy of making it compulsory for certain citizens to keep other citizens under surveillance. "The Lives of Others" how are you?

First it was the phone companies being obliged to keep a track of our calls and the location of our mobiles for at least 3 years.

Now the publicans are bieng obliged to film us while we socialise:

Intoxicating Liquor Bill 2008 (since passed - final text not availbale on oireachas.ie):

"7 (2) The District Court may impose a condition, on giving a certificate referred to in subsection (1), relating to the installation, use or operation, or any combination thereof, of a closed circuit television system in respect of the premises concerned and, accordingly, if there is any failure to comply with such condition, such failure shall relate to the good character of the licensee for the purposes of the renewal under the Act of 1986 of the relevant off-licence concerned.

“10.—Section 5 (inserted by section 11 of the Act of 2003) of the Act of 1927 is amended—...
(b) by substituting the following subsections for subsection (4):...

'(4) A special exemption order—
(a) shall contain the following conditions:
....
(iv) that, in the case of a special occasion which does not fall within paragraph (a)(ii) of the definition of ‘special occasion’ in subsection (1), a closed circuit television system be in operation on the premises concerned during the course of the 30 special occasion;

(v) if subparagraph (iv) is applicable but the premises concerned do not have a closed circuit television system installed in them, that a closed circuit television system be 35 installed in them for the purposes of that subparagraph; and' "

Only just read this Zhou. Watch while we drink eh. And what is the point of it ? - I thought that CCTV stuff was for some bizarre reason inadmissable evidence.

Proof that Government databases are being used by private commercial interests to spy on people.
How this can be a "revelation" is beyond me. It is a natural and inevitable consequence of the systems that are in place. I doubt a "code" is going to stop it either.


FROM SANS.ORG:
--Irish Insurance Sector Gets Data Protection Code
(August 20, 2008)
In light of the revelation that insurance companies in Ireland have been
using private investigators to obtain personal data held by the Gardai
and the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the Irish Data
Protection Commissioner's office has issued a Code of Practice on Data
Protection for the Insurance Sector. In a note announcing the
publication of the code, the Data Protection Commissioner's Office says
that "The Data Protection Acts provide for the preparation of
sector-specific codes of practice to allow for a better understanding
of the requirements of the Acts. ...In some instances the basic
statutory data protection requirements as they are applied within
particular sectors can benefit from more detail."
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhqleymhmhid/
http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=841&m=f

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

Proof that Government databases are being used by private commercial interests to spy on people.
How this can be a "revelation" is beyond me. It is a natural and inevitable consequence of the systems that are in place. I doubt a "code" is going to stop it either.


FROM SANS.ORG:
--Irish Insurance Sector Gets Data Protection Code
(August 20, 2008)
In light of the revelation that insurance companies in Ireland have been
using private investigators to obtain personal data held by the Gardai
and the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the Irish Data
Protection Commissioner's office has issued a Code of Practice on Data
Protection for the Insurance Sector. In a note announcing the
publication of the code, the Data Protection Commissioner's Office says
that "The Data Protection Acts provide for the preparation of
sector-specific codes of practice to allow for a better understanding
of the requirements of the Acts. ...In some instances the basic
statutory data protection requirements as they are applied within
particular sectors can benefit from more detail."
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhqleymhmhid/
http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=841&m=f

Are Gardai /recently ex-Gardai allowed to work as Private Investigators ?

I'd imagine ex-Gardaí are but there is probably a restraint of business clause for a certain period of time attached to their contract. That said, these are a relatively new phenomenon in the public sector - they have long existed in the private sector. Take Tom Parlon for example, many would argue he should not have been entitled to take up his current position so soon.

Short answer is I would guess that there may well not be a restraint of business clause, if there is it would be a recent phenomenon so there would have been a practise of this in the past and finally if it does exist it would be limited in nature. Such restrictions must always be limited in nature or they are struck down by the courts as being oppressive.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

Not a surveillance society? Then how does that square with London being the CCTV capital of the world?

There are cameras everywhere in London. Of course it's a surveillance society, ordinary life isn't too far from Big Brother in the UK.

That's a bit extreme is it not? Just because a city has a lot of CCTV--I mean, like, a lot of CCTV--doesn't mean it is a surveillance society. The term "surveillance society" to me suggests a society where the extent of government surveillance of citizens' private lives is disproportionate, excessive and disturbing. There is a lot of surveillance in London but there is also a lot of crime, and it is obvious that there are pros to surveillance as well as cons. To be honest I don't view public CCTV as a major threat. The problems are things like data retention laws which allow the State to snoop into the private actions of citizens on the internet. Of course, th UK also has these laws and these are a problem. So I'm not saying that it isn't a surveillance society, that's open to debate and I'd like to read the report before making any judgement. But I don't think London's abundance of CCTV is enough to give it that title.

cactus flower wrote:

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

Proof that Government databases are being used by private commercial interests to spy on people.
How this can be a "revelation" is beyond me. It is a natural and inevitable consequence of the systems that are in place. I doubt a "code" is going to stop it either.


FROM SANS.ORG:
--Irish Insurance Sector Gets Data Protection Code
(August 20, 2008)
In light of the revelation that insurance companies in Ireland have been
using private investigators to obtain personal data held by the Gardai
and the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the Irish Data
Protection Commissioner's office has issued a Code of Practice on Data
Protection for the Insurance Sector. In a note announcing the
publication of the code, the Data Protection Commissioner's Office says
that "The Data Protection Acts provide for the preparation of
sector-specific codes of practice to allow for a better understanding
of the requirements of the Acts. ...In some instances the basic
statutory data protection requirements as they are applied within
particular sectors can benefit from more detail."
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhqleymhmhid/
http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=841&m=f

Are Gardai /recently ex-Gardai allowed to work as Private Investigators ?

Indeed they are. I have used them countless times myself.