Edo wrote:

Coir " Dont be bullied - Vote No" - hmmm - and you wonder why Im becoming more and more cynical and depressed about the state of our country? -

I will disagree with the No camp - but Im not going to physically beat anybody up and scream manically at them and shower lies all over the place - Im as mad as hell and would have no problem going into Capel Street with a molotov cocktail in my hand at the mo - but no - I will have a cup of camoille tea and chill down and tomorrow I will get up and move on and do my bit for the cause in a democratic way - even if its a lost cause.

I am saddened to hear of this, Edo. This "Christian" group truly are reprehensible and utterly un-representative of the Christian message.

I hope you and your party colleagues are feeling better now. Those people in Cóir truly are something that need to be put out of business since they are demeaning both themselves, the No campaign and, most importantly, the Christian message itself.

cactus flower wrote:

Hermes - there a large number of comments from people who were at the meeting on the Indymedia thread and also the few seconds of video that WAC released. People will, as they did on Indymedia, form their own views.

There have been a number of public meetings advertised in which Libertas shared a platform with speakers from the Labour Party and it was Libertas that withdrew from a meeting in which SF were also to speak, not the other way around.

Well tis fair enough that people form their own views. Tis quite another thing though for media outlets to broadcast views as factual news. If Mr. DeRossa's allegations were to be repeated in a courtroom, we could, just from the short clip supplied by WAC, see that he'd be perjuring himself.

Labour are only leftist in name, their actions are not. They're campaigning for a 'yes' vote anyway (though a few do seem to be jumping ship).

As for SF, they wash in both directions imo and would share a platform with anyone who'd provide a reason to listen to them. SF are somewhat associated with the general 'no' campaign but they're not running the show. Groups like PANA and People Before Profit/SWP are mostly calling the shots and have distanced themselves from Libertas.

All in all, and including the Shinners, I can't think of any event where Libertas has shared the same platform. The media, as I said, would like to lump all the various 'no' campaigns together, the truth is quite different. The diversity of the groups campaigning for a 'no' is quite massive and many of them want no association with each other (hence my surprise that WAC are being associated with the likes of COIR).

This massive diversity is the main reason why I myself took no active part in campaigning for a 'no' vote. I deplore many of the individual groups and especially deplore the idea promoted by most campaigning groups regarding the alleged existence of Ireland's 'neutrality.' In conclusion, regardless as to the outcome of this vote, I think the left in general have stepped back years, thanks to the idea of neutrality having been firmly established once more. I'd single out SF in particular, more than any other group, for this particular setback.

All that said, violence has no part to play in convincing anyone to vote one way or the other. Neither does propaganda relating to it. I just wish that all concerned would stick to the facts and that the treaty be rejected or indeed embraced on its merits or the lack of them.

Red C poll on p.ie linked to by EvotingMachine in the Sibín Reoite says Yes side winning - this thing will be up and down for the rest of the week now I suppose ...

Hermes said

Quote :

I just wish that all concerned would stick to the facts and that the treaty be rejected or indeed embraced on its merits or the lack of them.

That's one we should all agree on here.

Edo, am so sorry to hear what happened, that is just beyond disgusting, it's criminal. As others have said, be sure everything is reported to the Guards, by all of your group.
This next week is going to be crazy, have been listening to the radio and speaking to family and friends over there.

I also echo Ard-T's comments re so-called Christians.

That also goes for the scum-of-the-earth in Hermes' original post. Have seen those sickos on tv, if they are the same ones who protest and say the most ungodly things at funerals ffs.

Turns out that I was wrong.

We Are Change, COIR and indeed Libertas all worked together during the campaign. Mostly this relationship involved COIR and We Are Change distributing leaflets etc. from Libertas. Neither COIR nor We Are Change have developed any partnerships and to the best of my contact's knowledge, neither group has any members that are in both organisations. There were talks though, during the campaign where strategy and target areas for canvassing were discussed.

All in all, I'm quite dissapointed that WAC had any relationship with COIR. It sends cold shivers up my spine. It remains to be seen if these groups 'partner up' for any further activities. I'll not say they won't, I thought that already and I was very wrong.

I hope you're feeling better Edo and that you're ready to get back up on the horse. For what it's worth, I've relayed my outrage about the attack on yourself and your comrades to WAC through my contact.

Apologies for the delay. Stuff has been hectic for the last few weeks and I'm miles behind in stuff I need to catch up with here (and elsewhere). I still have to write some stuff in answer to WBS in the anarchist thread and give an answer to Audi in his water thread. There just aint enough hours in the day...

Thanks Hermes - Im grand - no harm done - and all in all eveybody's back to themselves and have their "war story" to regale their friends and family for years to come

In retrospect - I think a bit of this was understandable in a campaign that became very emotional and highly charged for some as it was the first time that anybody was taking them vaguely seriously outside their own networks and to run into a persistent stubborn git like myself and the 2 old campaigners who just smiled and ignored them and continued on doing my own thing was probably a bit provocative.

If anything it showed just how out of touch the political establishment have become in this country and how many people totally missed or were shoved off the boat during the Tiger years. IMO that is the big issue facing us and I dont hold a great degree of confidence that the message is sinking thru given the response I got during a get together after the results - a lot of party members just dont want to know - a lot of party members who turned for the free drinkies and werent seen out on the campaign.

Hi Hermes, that is an interesting post. Personally I'm not a pacifist and think people have a right to defend themselves, but something makes me deeply uneasy about substituting physicality on the streets for political debate. It doesn't benefit the mass of people, whose strength is in their numbers and orderliness, if you know what I mean. It reminds me of just a bit of Kristallnacht and book burning. I know some people think I am alarmist, but with recession and a lot of social change going on, the emergence of pretty nasty new right wing groupings seems almost inevitable on the one hand, but not to be put up with on the other. I may be wrong but COIR, WAC and Libertas supporters don't look like the people who missed out on the Tiger - more like the people who will be looking for scapegoats when their Tiger milk is taken away from them. You only have to read some of the threads on Politics.ie to see what I mean.

Whenever you have time, I'm looking forward to a revival of the anarchism thread as the issues of how to produce without a boom and bust cycle are in there along with a lot of other interesting stuff.

Hermes wrote:

Turns out that I was wrong.

We Are Change, COIR and indeed Libertas all worked together during the campaign. Mostly this relationship involved COIR and We Are Change distributing leaflets etc. from Libertas. Neither COIR nor We Are Change have developed any partnerships and to the best of my contact's knowledge, neither group has any members that are in both organisations. There were talks though, during the campaign where strategy and target areas for canvassing were discussed.

I don't doubt you, but is there any objective way of demonstrating that?

Hermes wrote:

All in all, I'm quite dissapointed that WAC had any relationship with COIR. It sends cold shivers up my spine. It remains to be seen if these groups 'partner up' for any further activities. I'll not say they won't, I thought that already and I was very wrong.

I hope you're feeling better Edo and that you're ready to get back up on the horse. For what it's worth, I've relayed my outrage about the attack on yourself and your comrades to WAC through my contact.

Apologies for the delay. Stuff has been hectic for the last few weeks and I'm miles behind in stuff I need to catch up with here (and elsewhere). I still have to write some stuff in answer to WBS in the anarchist thread and give an answer to Audi in his water thread. There just aint enough hours in the day...

Fortunately, several hours have been freed up by the precipitous decline of p.ie - I don't see any point in dipping my brain in the shitstream just to argue with Libertas and SF supporters.

ibis wrote:

Hermes wrote:

Turns out that I was wrong.

We Are Change, COIR and indeed Libertas all worked together during the campaign. Mostly this relationship involved COIR and We Are Change distributing leaflets etc. from Libertas. Neither COIR nor We Are Change have developed any partnerships and to the best of my contact's knowledge, neither group has any members that are in both organisations. There were talks though, during the campaign where strategy and target areas for canvassing were discussed.

I don't doubt you, but is there any objective way of demonstrating that?

Hermes wrote:

All in all, I'm quite dissapointed that WAC had any relationship with COIR. It sends cold shivers up my spine. It remains to be seen if these groups 'partner up' for any further activities. I'll not say they won't, I thought that already and I was very wrong.

I hope you're feeling better Edo and that you're ready to get back up on the horse. For what it's worth, I've relayed my outrage about the attack on yourself and your comrades to WAC through my contact.

Apologies for the delay. Stuff has been hectic for the last few weeks and I'm miles behind in stuff I need to catch up with here (and elsewhere). I still have to write some stuff in answer to WBS in the anarchist thread and give an answer to Audi in his water thread. There just aint enough hours in the day...

Fortunately, several hours have been freed up by the precipitous decline of p.ie - I don't see any point in dipping my brain in the shitstream just to argue with Libertas and SF supporters.

I've been doing some digging whilst awaiting a reply about the relationship. Other than my hearsay (my contact told me - like the Independent, I'm now stooping to quoting unnamed sources ), I've come across powerful circumstantial evidence. Here's a link to a video uploaded to Youtube by We Are Change - You'll note that it's a COIR video with a link to COIR's website http://www.lisbonvote.com/ at the end of it: Link to video.

I agree with you about P.ie. It's gone to the dogs. I used to spend a decent amount of time each day reading and educating myself as to current trends and opinions in politics. Now it's a once a week short trawl through the shite and hissy fits to find any morsels worth knowing about. Tis a pity. As much as I used to disagree with what folks thought, it was still an excellent window to view well argued viewpoints. Alas, no more. RIP P.ie.

That WBC lot have had a thing agin Ireland for a while now. Their leader (Phelps? something like that) was invited by one of the Dublin Unis to do a speech, much on the same lines as the likes of David Inving (the holocaust denier) are invited to do speeches for the shock value. I think he refused to speak when he discovered he would be sharing a platform with David Norris. Anyway, the upshot was he set up www.godhatesireland.com, one of the funniest if deranged sites you will ever come across.

So its not just me then thinking that P.ie has jumped off the cliff since about 2 days after the referendum result.

Actually you can attempt to have a conversation with SF and Libertas supporters (well most of the ones with avatars anyway - tho Cookie Monster has gone a bit sarcastically monosyllabic in recent times) - the rest of of them - its like a moonie camp for paranoids gone mental on crack cocaine - talk about the need for reinforcement! - Yeesh - I saw NDS gave a very measured reply to one of the new influxes display of their command of the cut and paste function on their Pc - it was very good and he kept the sarcasm to the minimum - the replies - lets just say you wouldn't find Kerry Football supporters reaching as low if they had been beaten by the Carlow under 15 team - absolutely pitiful and it is a real pity.

I still look in - just for whats up and in the news - too mentally scarring to get involved in debate over there thesedays.

Very panicky, is how I would describe them - if the sky isn't going to fall in because of the No vote then it surely will because of the recession.

The racist foursome are in their element not because they have anything new to say but, oh horrors , they seem to almost be being listened to instead of run out of the threads for trolling.

cactus flower wrote:

Very panicky, is how I would describe them - if the sky isn't going to fall in because of the No vote then it surely will because of the recession.

The racist foursome are in their element not because they have anything new to say but, oh horrors , they seem to almost be being listened to instead of run out of the threads for trolling.

Hmm. The Libertas boys (CM, Bobert, Trampas, myksav, increasingly FT, several others) will defend anything Libertas or Ganley has done or said, however questionable or off the wall. Seem to be taking their cues from SF in that regard. Certainly the right-wingers on P.ie seem to have found something satisfying in Libertas - a reminder that Ireland has no properly right-wing parties. Those lads would never quite have been as far in the conservative direction as COIR, but their instincts lie that way.

No particular point in getting involved in a Lisbon discussion, because the usual jeering mob will be there immediately - although judging by the fisheries thread, they're not very at home in a fact-based argument.

MikeW wrote:

That WBC lot have had a thing agin Ireland for a while now.

They've got a thing against everybody. They've a godhatessweden and godhatescanada thing going as well. There's a pretty good television programme about the WBC called The Most Hated Family In America. Well worth a watch. Basically the "church" consists of Fred Phelps and his extended family. When Fred dies his children and grandkids are going to need some serious counselling.