Auditor #9 wrote:

I think we should post in irish anywhere but I see the point about it being practical keeping irish in one place. I think the lads are posting in irish in the history forum as well already anyway - something about Clare and how we all dress like ..

Oh to heck with it. There is no excuse. We will all have to learn Irish properly and then there will be no issue. It is about time anyway.

i don't think you should be allowed post in irish outside the irish forum without a english translation, I don't see how you can learn without a translation to compare words.

but you could be lighter in the irish forum then p.ie, and perhaps even allow english to written in the irish forum, because everybody understand it as opposed to irish.

lostexpectation wrote:

i don't think you should be allowed post in irish outside the irish forum without a english translation, I don't see how you can learn without a translation to compare words.

A lot of people here would have at least some Irish, which they could use to figure out the meaning of what's being said - the Irish speakers aren't going to go out of their way to confuse people... and I know that I'd provide at least a partial translation or gist of something if i thought it wouldn't be understood... to be honest though I wouldn't like to think that I wasn't "allowed" to post Irish unless I met set criteria... Where's the harm in leaving it to people's own judgement with what they want to put up as a guide instead of almost belittling Irish in favour of English (I know you don't mean it like that, of course, it's just that doing that would mean no one could post quickly in Irish (everything'd take double the amount of time), it wouldn't encourage people to make the effort with it, as why bother if all the English is going to be there anyway?) Knowing that not everyone has Irish here, I'm sure we'd all make the effort to make it as accessable as possible to everyone... and anyone can always just ask what a word or phrase means if they're unsure..... But I don't want to be forced into having to provide English translations without question (it doesn't mean I wont... I'd just rather know that I could make my own judgement)

Quote :

but you could be lighter in the irish forum then p.ie, and perhaps even allow english to written in the irish forum, because everybody understand it as opposed to irish.

Well if it's being used as a resource to learn Irish then I suppose you'd bound to get questions about something in English.... But you seem to be proposing that we can't have Irish without English in the main forum... and if we use Irish in the Irish forum then we can't expect to keep the debate all in Irish (which I wouldn't mind once people made an effort with what they had.... if the forum was used for a learning resource)

Of course everyone here understands English... but that's missing the point of the idea of making this forum bi-lingual, if that's how people want to go..... Irish should be considered to be on an equal footing as English and not simply something extra to throw in.... If I feel like writing in English I can.... If I feel like writing in Irish I'd like to know I could without having to do the whole thing again in English... People should be encouraged to use Irish for its own sake and not as something extra to throw alongside the English.

They're my thoughts anyway! (I think I sounded a bit angry as well though... but I'm not... so don't read that into it or whatever!)

BuachaillBeo wrote:

... to be honest though I wouldn't like to think that I wasn't "allowed" to post Irish unless I met set criteria...

Well said among the rest - the forum has certain criteria and Irish threads on party politics, mechanisms, structures, technology, energy, law, history or philosophy etc. should be in the appropriate forums or folders.

The sooner someone opens a thread on ubuntu as Gaeilge like the one on p.ie the better - as far as I know, Microsoft haven't localised their OS software in Irish yet - it takes a bunch of Irish internet geeks with some free time to do it ...

BuachaillBeo wrote:

lostexpectation wrote:

i don't think you should be allowed post in irish outside the irish forum without a english translation, I don't see how you can learn without a translation to compare words.

A lot of people here would have at least some Irish, which they could use to figure out the meaning of what's being said - the Irish speakers aren't going to go out of their way to confuse people... and I know that I'd provide at least a partial translation or gist of something if i thought it wouldn't be understood... to be honest though I wouldn't like to think that I wasn't "allowed" to post Irish unless I met set criteria... Where's the harm in leaving it to people's own judgement with what they want to put up as a guide instead of almost belittling Irish in favour of English (I know you don't mean it like that, of course, it's just that doing that would mean no one could post quickly in Irish (everything'd take double the amount of time), it wouldn't encourage people to make the effort with it, as why bother if all the English is going to be there anyway?) Knowing that not everyone has Irish here, I'm sure we'd all make the effort to make it as accessable as possible to everyone... and anyone can always just ask what a word or phrase means if they're unsure..... But I don't want to be forced into having to provide English translations without question (it doesn't mean I wont... I'd just rather know that I could make my own judgement)

Quote :

but you could be lighter in the irish forum then p.ie, and perhaps even allow english to written in the irish forum, because everybody understand it as opposed to irish.

Well if it's being used as a resource to learn Irish then I suppose you'd bound to get questions about something in English.... But you seem to be proposing that we can't have Irish without English in the main forum... and if we use Irish in the Irish forum then we can't expect to keep the debate all in Irish (which I wouldn't mind once people made an effort with what they had.... if the forum was used for a learning resource)

Of course everyone here understands English... but that's missing the point of the idea of making this forum bi-lingual, if that's how people want to go..... Irish should be considered to be on an equal footing as English and not simply something extra to throw in.... If I feel like writing in English I can.... If I feel like writing in Irish I'd like to know I could without having to do the whole thing again in English... People should be encouraged to use Irish for its own sake and not as something extra to throw alongside the English.

They're my thoughts anyway! (I think I sounded a bit angry as well though... but I'm not... so don't read that into it or whatever!)

i would be happy with a quick gist of a translation but would keep it as a requirement, twice you've suggested that you going to discuss something I havn't said

I do consider Irish to be on an equal footing, that's exactly why you should require both of them outside the irish forum!

if you write the post in irish first and then give an english translation. how is that irish as second best?

I think you just don't understand how little irish a lot of people have even after 10 years of school.

I don't see the point in posting something that most people won't understand. why go that effort? how about going to effort of posting something people will understand.

and can join in on.

lostexpectation wrote:

twice you've suggested that you going to discuss something I havn't said

sorry, i don't understand what you mean by this

Quote :

I do consider Irish to be on an equal footing, that's exactly why you should require both of them outside the irish forum!

but it's not on equal footing if someone is required to provide a translation when writing in one of the languages, and not required if writing the other.... I don't want people who write English to have to provide an Irish translation, and I think it's resonable to have that work the other way as well...

Quote :

if you write the post in irish first and then give an english translation. how is that irish as second best?

If you write your post in English can leave it as is
If you write your post in Irish you have to provide a translation.
That, to me, would make Irish second best.. (note that it doesn't mean I wont give translations, it's just I'd like the idea of not being forced to, based on both languages being seen as equal

Quote :

I think you just don't understand how little irish a lot of people have even after 10 years of school.

I do realise that, which is why I'll be putting translations and help and so on when I write in Irish, and will be happy to tell anybody what I mean if they have to ask about it... I just don't need a charter rule to force me to do it though, and I'd imagine with all the Irish speakers here that we'd all be delighted just for people to have a craic off it and would be happy to help.. So why not just leave the languages as equal.

Quote :

I don't see the point in posting something that most people won't understand. why go that effort? how about going to effort of posting something people will understand.

I like Irish and want to write in it. I find it's a medium that I can express myself in and so why not. I'm not out to confuse people, I'll help them with anything if they need it, and will try to make it as accessable as possible.


Look, honestly, it's not a case that I'll be posting away in Irish for the sake of confusing people or whatever... I just like the idea of it being a bi-lingual board, which'd allow anyone to use either language, based on their mood, without restrictions. I realise peoples' grasp mightn't be great, which is why I'll do my best to make it accessable Irish and help with whatever ambiguity might be there, and everyone else'd do the same I'd imagine. I don't see a need to bring in rules to place either language above the other with requirements about necessary translations - everyone who posts here does so to get a point accross or have something considered - so i don't think we need to bring in rules for fear of people writing things that people wont understand... people'll make sure to provide the necessary help on their posts anyway to get their point considered, I think.

Is there a freetranslation site for Irish? There is one that gives a basic translation (sometimes funny) in German, French and Spanish. If there isn't one, it is something our government should do pronto`. Does anyone know of a good on-line Irish dictionary? I wouldn't know the difference between good and bad. We need to get some support systems up on this site if we are to be a successful bi-lingual site.

If we had links to these things then anyone wanting to read an Irish post could do a quick translation themselves, and stick it into the next post for the benefit of others.

BuachaillBeo wrote:

lostexpectation wrote:

twice you've suggested that you going to discuss something I havn't said

sorry, i don't understand what you mean by this

BuachaillBeo wrote:

Where's the harm in leaving it to people's own judgement with what they
want to put up as a guide instead of almost belittling Irish in favour
of English (I know you don't mean it like that

???

Quote :

I do consider Irish to be on an equal footing, that's exactly why you should require both of them outside the irish forum!

but it's not on equal footing if someone is required to provide a translation when writing in one of the languages, and not required if writing the other.... I don't want people who write English to have to provide an Irish translation, and I think it's resonable to have that work the other way as well...

Quote :

if you write the post in irish first and then give an english translation. how is that irish as second best?

If you write your post in English can leave it as is
If you write your post in Irish you have to provide a translation.
That, to me, would make Irish second best.. (note that it doesn't mean I wont give translations, it's just I'd like the idea of not being forced to, based on both languages being seen as equal

Quote :

I think you just don't understand how little irish a lot of people have even after 10 years of school.

I do realise that, which is why I'll be putting translations and help and so on when I write in Irish, and will be happy to tell anybody what I mean if they have to ask about it... I just don't need a charter rule to force me to do it though, and I'd imagine with all the Irish speakers here that we'd all be delighted just for people to have a craic off it and would be happy to help.. So why not just leave the languages as equal.

Quote :

I don't see the point in posting something that most people won't understand. why go that effort? how about going to effort of posting something people will understand.

I like Irish and want to write in it. I find it's a medium that I can express myself in and so why not. I'm not out to confuse people, I'll help them with anything if they need it, and will try to make it as accessable as possible.

this won't work people who don't understand aren't going to to post asking about this word and that, everytime they don't undersatnd and wait for you to reply, they will leave the thread.

Quote :

Look, honestly, it's not a case that I'll be posting away in Irish for the sake of confusing people or whatever... I just like the idea of it being a bi-lingual board, which'd allow anyone to use either language, based on their mood, without restrictions. I realise peoples' grasp mightn't be great, which is why I'll do my best to make it accessable Irish and help with whatever ambiguity might be there, and everyone else'd do the same I'd imagine. I don't see a need to bring in rules to place either language above the other with requirements about necessary translations - everyone who posts here does so to get a point accross or have something considered - so i don't think we need to bring in rules for fear of people writing things that people wont understand... people'll make sure to provide the necessary help on their posts anyway to get their point considered, I think.

the thing you don't seem to want to accept is that everyone has english not everyone has irish, that the difference, you call that inequality? i can it reality, and requiring a translations will reduce that not increase it.

cactus flower wrote:

Is there a freetranslation site for Irish? There is one that gives a basic translation (sometimes funny) in German, French and Spanish. If there isn't one, it is something our government should do pronto`. Does anyone know of a good on-line Irish dictionary? I wouldn't know the difference between good and bad. We need to get some support systems up on this site if we are to be a successful bi-lingual site.

If we had links to these things then anyone wanting to read an Irish post could do a quick translation themselves, and stick it into the next post for the benefit of others.

No unfortunately not. The different syntax and idiom make it a considerably more different task than translating from french and german. Ironically, the elements that make Irish so unique are the same as those that prevent an automatic translation system.

riadach wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Is there a freetranslation site for Irish? There is one that gives a basic translation (sometimes funny) in German, French and Spanish. If there isn't one, it is something our government should do pronto`. Does anyone know of a good on-line Irish dictionary? I wouldn't know the difference between good and bad. We need to get some support systems up on this site if we are to be a successful bi-lingual site.

If we had links to these things then anyone wanting to read an Irish post could do a quick translation themselves, and stick it into the next post for the benefit of others.

No unfortunately not. The different syntax and idiom make it a considerably more different task than translating from french and german. Ironically, the elements that make Irish so unique are the same as those that prevent an automatic translation system.

Well to be honest the French and German ones are a bit C****y too. But they give you a leg up. What about a dictionary? That's surely more straightforward.

Oh, www.englishirishdictionary.com

There is a thread of these in the gaeilge forum.

lostexpectation wrote:

this won't work people who don't understand aren't going to to post asking about this word and that, everytime they don't undersatnd and wait for you to reply, they will leave the thread.

Well judging from experience on the site so far, and comments from users above regarding the issue, that doesn't seem to be the case. People seem to want to have a craic off the Irish and have been asking about it and it hasn't derailed threads or anything. Don't assume that people wont provide suitable helps or translations when writing in Irish, unless it's ruled in the charter that they do (and I'm not saying you are assuming that, just it might be a thought)

Quote :

the thing you don't seem to want to accept is that everyone has english not everyone has irish,

I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

Quote :

that the difference,

If we're trying to make a bilingual board then it doesn't matter, not in a technical sense anyway regarding the charter.

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you call that inequality? i can it reality, and requiring a translations will reduce that not increase it.

That's not what I meant by inequality. I'll probably provide translations when I write in Irish, seeing as not everyone will understand it and it will help them with the language... I don't mind doing that... I enjoy helping people with it. The fact you want us to have to do it is what the point is here - that is unequal in my mind.

If Irish is treated on an equal basis and not as a you can write it but you have to do it again in English kind of thing then I think it'll benefit us all. Giving us an opportunity to use Irish on an equal basis as English will promote its use on the site, I believe. That wont result in Irish being written without translations and help and so on. I don't want favourtism with one language over the other in the charter, and I can't see how that's a problem.

I know you don't mind Irish in itself - is it that you think that unless it's explicitly expressed in the charter, that people wont give help with it and that? I can assure you that that wont be the case with me (as can be seen on my threads which were bilingual before any draft charter came up).. and I'd imagine the other speakers as well. With that in mind, would you not think it appropriate to give the two languages equal status in the spirit of helping put together a bilingual board?

BuachaillBeo, lostexpectation. What about this:

Posters can post in whatever language they like, but if they are asked to provide a translation into another language by another poster, they should do so.

In practice, that would mean that BuachaillBeo could post in Irish only(if he wanted to) but, if lostexpectation wanted a translation into English, then BuachaillBeo would have to provide it. The translation could then be verified by riadach or anmajornathainig2 if it was an issue.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

BuachaillBeo, lostexpectation. What about this:

Posters can post in whatever language they like, but if they are asked to provide a translation into another language by another poster, they should do so.

In practice, that would mean that BuachaillBeo could post in Irish only(if he wanted to) but, if lostexpectation wanted a translation into English, then BuachaillBeo would have to provide it. The translation could then be verified by riadach or anmajornathainig2 if it was an issue.

that's clearly impractical.
would it not be easier to agree to always give a translation ?

Quote :

The fact you want us to have to do it is what the point is here - that is unequal in my mind.

the number of people who have irish vs the number of people who have english is unequal, im sorry that is the case, but that's the way things are.

the number of people who have english is 100% so therefore english should be in every post (except for the irish subforum).

Quote :

What do ye think of this? How would we identify circularity in a debate is the next question?

See above...

Should we have a vote on this lostexpectation? A poll? Because I would like irish to be posted anywhere on the site but I think it's more impractical for the poster to give a translation.

It's no harm if we are exposed to irish regularly - it will go in you know.

Poll, vote anyone?

Auditor #9 wrote:

Should we have a vote on this lostexpectation? A poll? Because I would like irish to be posted anywhere on the site but I think it's more impractical for the poster to give a translation.

It's no harm if we are exposed to irish regularly - it will go in you know.

Poll, vote anyone?

Sounds good to me

Some free online dictionaries and grammars. There is one on-line free translation service but I haven't tried it yet.

Irish dictionary


Dictionary and Grammar





Dictionaries, fonts, phrases

Another Irish dictionary

Focal.ie - Irish terms

Free translation (human)

English Irish Dictionary

So will we vote on the irish thing or not or are polls not supposed to be used for that or what?

I think it would be a quick dirty cheap and nasty way of making up our minds on things..

Or someone could make an executive decision...

no a poll is pointless.

lostexpectation wrote:

no a poll is pointless.

Why? We'll be going around in circles otherwise.

English dominates the site. I value Irish although I don't understand it. The main problem I would see is not much Irish posting on the site. I think we should look at what the Irish posters have said and what they would find agreeable and sensible.

From the point of view of modding I just look and see if I can see any names that might be attracting defamatory comment. That hasn't happened yet.

Defamatory comments could be posted inside or outside the irish forum though...

We should be a bilingual nation at the minimum and I think the presence of irish (or another european language for that matter) would benefit all sides.

Just because it's an english speaking site doesn't mean it should have to always be a 100% english speaking site. cactus speaks french as does ibis; Kate speaks german and I speak spanish. Others speak german too - Atticus and Ard Taoiseach.