Turkey - In or Out?

I think P.ie recently had a discussion along these lines, so let's shamelessly ape them for a bit. Should Turkey be allowed join the EU? On the plus side their economy isn't the worst and they're very keen. On the con side is the human rights issue (something they've been working on), Kurds, and free speech (they've also worked on that: Turkey approves free speech reform).

905 wrote:

I think P.ie recently had a discussion along these lines, so let's shamelessly ape them for a bit. Should Turkey be allowed join the EU? On the plus side their economy isn't the worst and they're very keen. On the con side is the human rights issue (something they've been working on), Kurds, and free speech (they've also worked on that: Turkey approves free speech reform).

In.

1. They want to join, they are a democracy and more likely to stay one if they join.
2. All right, so they are on the edge of a war zone and have a serious Kurdish issue (as does much of the surrounding region). Ireland had a border issue when it joined too.
3. They are economically a well-developed country and it would be great to be able to shop in the Grand Bazaar with euros.
4. Half of the German population is Turkish and that hasn't given us any problems.
5. Allowing them to join would consolidate and support the more progressive elements of Turkish society.

905 wrote:

I think P.ie recently had a discussion along these lines, so let's shamelessly ape them for a bit. Should Turkey be allowed join the EU? On the plus side their economy isn't the worst and they're very keen. On the con side is the human rights issue (something they've been working on), Kurds, and free speech (they've also worked on that: Turkey approves free speech reform).

Sure. Maybe we could have the discussion without the usual foaming loons. That would be nice.

I'm in favour - I think Turkey is on track to join, and has been working pretty hard on it for the last decade and more. Greece was only about 6-7 years away from being a dictatorship when it joined the EU, and the the human rights records of several other EU states were pretty dubious when they joined.

In.

Keep your potential enemies closer to you. Membership of the EU is likely to be a moderating force on the sections of Turkish society who would wish to bring down the secular state. Failure to allow accession is likely to drive a wedge between the moderates (which form the vast majority) in Turkey and the West. That would present several difficulties. We could - in several years - have a state aggressive to the Union on our borders.

There would also be tremendous advantages to having a Muslim majority State within the Union. Particularly if the EU sought to be a force for good in the Middle East.

That is not to say that it would be an easy venture. The accession of a State with a population of 70 million, the vast majority of whom are Muslim, would certainly be a big step for the Union. There are also great issues to be resolved in regard to Cyprus.

However, overall I think that it would be beneficial and that the process should be speeded up. There is a fine tightrope to be walked here in regard to getting it right with Turkey. If it is left too late they will fall off the bandwagon of wanting to join the Union - that would be a disaster in my opinion.

Cactus is right about Turkey being a relatively developed State economically. Their GDP is already higher than Bulgaria and Romania who are already members.

Lara Marlowe, of the Irish Times, is very good on the social aspects of Turkey. I went to hear her speak on the issue of religion and politics in France and Turkey at an ecumenical lenten speaking series this year.

cactus flower wrote:

905 wrote:

I think P.ie recently had a discussion along these lines, so let's shamelessly ape them for a bit. Should Turkey be allowed join the EU? On the plus side their economy isn't the worst and they're very keen. On the con side is the human rights issue (something they've been working on), Kurds, and free speech (they've also worked on that: Turkey approves free speech reform).

In.

1. They want to join, they are a democracy and more likely to stay one if they join.
2. All right, so they are on the edge of a war zone and have a serious Kurdish issue (as does much of the surrounding region). Ireland had a border issue when it joined too.
3. They are economically a well-developed country and it would be great to be able to shop in the Grand Bazaar with euros.
4. Half of the German population is Turkish and that hasn't given us any problems.
5. Allowing them to join would consolidate and support the more progressive elements of Turkish society.

Just playing the Devil's Advocate here:
1. A lot of them believe that no matter what, Europe doesn't want them; they are getting sick of playing Europe's tune, especially if it infringes on Turkish identity.

2. They have a distressing tendency to invade Iraq and attack the Kurds. Also, the other surrounding countries having Kurdish problems doesn't really remedy Turkey's problem.

3. While the economy is doing well, so too was ours back in the day, remember? Thet have a big problem with debt that may become our problem. And I hear nothing but bad things about that bazaar, all tat.

4. Germany has big problems with its Turkish citizenry.

5. The most progressive elements of Turkish society are the allagedly Islamist AKP types. They're the ones pushing the EU agenda (modelling themselves on Germany's Christian parties). The secularists are more disillusioned with Europe.

905 wrote:

1. A lot of them believe that no matter what, Europe doesn't want them; they are getting sick of playing Europe's tune, especially if it infringes on Turkish identity.

That is one of the greatest difficulties. The anarchical nature of the international system leads States to resemble pubescent teenagers. You cannot keep telling them if they achieve so much they will get their pocket money, only then to consistently raise the bar. As you would a human being, you demoralise their society, making them hostile to your aims and most likely injecting a greater sense of militant nationalism. This would present a possibly great danger for Europe.

Quote :

2. They have a distressing tendency to invade Iraq and attack the Kurds. Also, the other surrounding countries having Kurdish problems doesn't really remedy Turkey's problem.

The territorial issues which Turkey faces, Kurdish and Cypriot do present great difficulties. I believe it would far better to have them inside the tent pissing out though.

Quote :

4. Germany has big problems with its Turkish citizenry.

Germany's citizenship rules are divisive and unfair. There are certain third generation Turks in Germany who are still not entitled to citizenship owing to various jus sanguinis and guest worker policies which they have.

Johnfás,
I don't like Lara Marlowe. What does Mary Fitzgerald say?

Letting Turkey in on the basis of disarming a potential enemy is a bit of a gamble. Do the pros outweigh the cons?

Having a Muslim poster-child sounds a little horrible but there is a precedent. It is thought that the Baltic states, if given their head, will prove to be effective in dealing with Russia seeing as they have so much experience. But to be honest I haven't seen much and it's not as though Russia's been quiet. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Generally highlighting Turkey's Muslim status will not be helpful in advocating their entry. Neither will any Turks like it.

Cyprus is an issue, but I think things are better there nowadays. Greece is likely to be a big problem too.

905 - if invading Iraq was a problem where would that leave the UK ?

The UK doesn't have a major Kurdish problem that I'm aware of. The Turks had relatively valid reasons for invading Iraq, but the EU might be sucked into that whole quagmire with Turkish memebership.

905 wrote:

The UK doesn't have a major Kurdish problem that I'm aware of. The Turks had relatively valid reasons for invading Iraq, but the EU might be sucked into that whole quagmire with Turkish memebership.

However the UK, without valid reasons, did invade.

That's a matter of opinion and belongs in its own thread. Maybe one about the EU angle of the UK's actions?