The government has announced its intention to implement measures constituting a serious assault on freedom of protest and civil action. It should be a matter of utmost urgency to people of every political persuasion to protest what is now planned - not least because the measures announced go to extremes that are well beyond what Michael McDowell (remember him?) had promised the country they would:

Article in today's Irish Times:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0422/1208469022709.html

Brief analysis here

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87288

From Oireachtas debate quoted in Indymedia (Senator Fiona O'Malley speaking)

The primary objective of data retention is to be able to hold on to and analyse traffic. It covers mass surveillance of the population if one wants to take it to its limits and it certainly has the capacity to do that. That we seem to be signing away agreement to do this worries me. What it means is that we will allow mobile phone traffic or correspondence on computers and websites that is delivered to be held for a period of three years. The argument often given is that it is a prevention measure against terrorism. That is one reason people do not like to alter it. If the State is under threat, anything that can be done to help bring people to justice should be done. It is hard for people to argue against it.

Let us look at the most recent acts of terrorism, particularly the Madrid bombings. Before this directive was introduced the culprits there were brought to justice on the basis of existing levels of data retention. I consider as excessive what is proposed in this directive.
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=SEN20080214.XML&Ex=All&Page=6

What do ye think of that?

any judge checks on this? that what most important, currently and in the future

As I understand it it leaves the thing wide open to garda and judicial discretion. That is the most dangerous kind of legislation possible in this circumstance. It should be very tightly drawn.

So called anti-terror legislation makes no difference to terrorism. Bombings, assassinations, damage to property, physical or personal aggression of any kind is already illegal and punishable by law. What this is all about is suppressing legal dissent. We are heading in an incredibly dangerous direction. Unless people wake up to it, it will be too late to do anything about it. Under this sort of legislation protest about things like privatisation of the health service or objections to the destruction of Tara will see determined protestors who organise peaceful direct action arrested and charged on grounds that they 'could be' attempting to commit an offence.

It's a bit like the Bush administrations preventative nuclear strike policy, which it is trying hard to force NATO to accept.

It's about crushing all forms of objection or dissent and disempowering those who think the country could or should be run differently - preventing them from effective organisation or expression of their views. With such a compliant media here, the situation is worse than it might be elsewhere. There is unlikely to be any truly critical assessment of this.

The proposed data retention laws here are appalling. Unfortunately, there seems to be no opposition to them within FF, most of whose TDs probably have no idea what's even being discussed.

WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!

Sorry, but I've heard this fascism imminent stuff before. What exactly have the Guards said about this level of data retention? I can't see them pulling out the terrorist card becuase that would have little to do with minor offences (how many terrorist plots can you see being foiled because of a brawl outside a pub?). Precisely why would they willingly promote facism?

905 wrote:

WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!

Sorry, but I've heard this fascism imminent stuff before. What exactly have the Guards said about this level of data retention? I can't see them pulling out the terrorist card becuase that would have little to do with minor offences (how many terrorist plots can you see being foiled because of a brawl outside a pub?). Precisely why would they willingly promote facism?

Meh. I'm not going along with the "fascism" thing, but requiring these levels of data retention isn't tolerable when you consider how easily data gets lost (or "lost", depending) - as per BoI's current blushes and the recent losses in the UK.

Currently, the Gardaí keep information they have gathered indefinitely. Regardless as to whether this information is correct or not.

They cite legislation coming from the victorian era as the enabler for this. Despite the fact, that in the meantime, we've come up with our own constitution.

We are all going to die. That's a fact. The issue is whether we die as slaves or as arbiters of our own destinies.

The PATRIOT act has nothing on the powers currently vested in the State, the US are way behind us. This latest addition is just a clarifying measure, that should leave nobody in any doubt regarding Ireland's fascist agenda. Remember, Mussolini described fascism as corporatism.

However, the State is not in a position to deal with those who will and continue to oppose its attempt to stamp the words, "product" and "property of the State," on our foreheads. There are not enough prison spaces available, what with over half the prison spaces being taken up by the nation's poor doing three month sentences for petty and so-called crimes.

I can't see the need for it myself and would love to hear what the gardaí actually have in mind. But fascist state run by Fachtna? Sorry, I don't buy it. He'd have to change the name for starters. As for not being owned by the state then I suggest you burn your birth certificate Hermes.

Can you explain why fascism is making a return?

905 wrote:

I can't see the need for it myself and would love to hear what the gardaí actually have in mind. But fascist state run by Fachtna? Sorry, I don't buy it. He'd have to change the name for starters. As for not being owned by the state then I suggest you burn your birth certificate Hermes.

Can you explain why fascism is making a return?

Well, they're quite correct in saying that Ireland is a fascist state to some extent. We follow the 'corporatist' model which forms the core of fascism (fasces - bundles of rods, stronger together).

905 wrote:

I can't see the need for it myself and would love to hear what the
gardaí actually have in mind. But fascist state run by Fachtna? Sorry,
I don't buy it. He'd have to change the name for starters. As for not
being owned by the state then I suggest you burn your birth certificate
Hermes.

Can you explain why fascism is making a return?

I didn't suggest that the Gardaí would run the State. They don't and they never will. They're simply the muscle.

As for fascism making a return; it's a mistake to believe that it ever went away.

Yes, but to the extent that Ireland is run by a group of power-crazed dictators unwilling to brook any dissent or criticism, backed up by brutal and omnipresent police surrounded by a pallor of fear, and where the only resistance hide out in cellars...

That's what fascism means to most people. 'Corporatist models' don't quite evoke the same imagery. While the loons on Indymedia would love that ("Finally, a chance to be all brave and noble but without having to actually go to war!")

They could be coming for YOU!

905 wrote:

Yes, but to the extent that Ireland is run by a group of power-crazed
dictators unwilling to brook any dissent or criticism, backed up by
brutal and omnipresent police surrounded by a pallor of fear, and where
the only resistance hide out in cellars...

That's what fascism
means to most people. 'Corporatist models' don't quite evoke the same
imagery. While the loons on Indymedia would love that ("Finally, a
chance to be all brave and noble but without having to actually go to
war!")

Agreed. That is what it means to most people. That however is its end result. We're not at the end yet. What moves have been made via legislation to ensure that we do not end up like this? Compare that to the moves made via legislation that take us down that road. I think you'll surprise yourself.

Every group has its loons. That's natural and allows for evolution. It's only when one considers the loons to be expendible and as untermensch, that we have a problem.

I'm kind of amazed that there is anyone left who doesn't realise that there is no country on earth that is functioning autonomously. One way or another each one falls into a larger economic bloc and whatever political system obtains it is the large corporates and/or commercial/economic interests that completely control political events within those blocs. Voting, parliaments and all the so-called democracy that goes with it, wherever democracy is supposedly in place, is largely a pantomime where all but the most insignificant decisions are concerned. In fascist and certain communist countries, of course they don't even bother with that pretense. Fascism is, after all, the political wing of capitalism. Capitalist democracy has always been an oxymoronic concept - the notion of which is becoming almost impossible to sustain. There are signs everywhere that the 'capitalist democrats' are growing impatient at having to play the democracy game.

Irish people ought to wake up to the fact that we are a significantly placed island on the west coast of Europe - sandwiched politically and geographically between the US and the UK - not something that either country has failed to notice. Our best assets are already in the hands of US and other gas and oil giants and they will do whatever they have to to protect those interests -just as they have done in many other places already. The pharmaceuticals are fully installed - we are the largest exporter of pharmaceuticals in the world after Switzerland. Through institutions like IBEC, The Irish American Chamber of commerce (which boasts proudly on its website that Ireland provides business people with unparalelled access to government compared to other countries - that's a form of fascism right there) and other non elected commercial vested interests, our government is massively in the control of such people.

If Europe was to evolve in a more anti-US direction, there is little doubt that the US would want to use Ireland as a base for any potential military operations in this world region. There has been talk of US warships being able to use our ports - it's already happened on at least a few occasions. Shannon is effectively a US military base already.

Irish people seem to think that because they don't look outward at what the rest of the world is doing, that nobody is looking in on us and eying up what we may have to offer - one way or another. The US, for one, is supremely conscious of all that we are or could be to them - and keeps a very close eye on us.

Now, as Chomsky says, there are two ways of playing this game. If you want to go down the 'let's pretend its a democracy' route then you have to manufacture the consent of people with tactics like intellectual control of the media, universities, politics - a control that permits only just so much dissent or criticism before critics are savaged or marginalised - enough to be able to say 'look, see, we allow 'freedom of speech' here, we're a democracy'. Nobody who is not playing the game adequately makes it to the top. That's a given. So long as there is no violence and a critical mass are able to get by without thinking too closely about what is really going on then it's usually possible for the people who really run the show to get their way, without too much bother. Cf. Tony O' Reilly, who determines which party gets elected, what the media will tell the people and who owned and sold a large slice of our oil resources to Exxon Mobil having bought the rights for mere thousands himself etc etc etc. And he's just one guy. In Ireland, of course, we have turned a blind eye to a lot of stuff that would have created popular ructions in other countries. In fact a large minority of us consistently vote for people who promptly turn around and kick us right in our faces by voting in parliament for policies that are savagely anti-people and anti-democratic. Tragically, most people don't even realise that this is what our politicians are doing. TDs vote how they are told to by their party leaders. Party leaders vote how they are told to by their backers. The backers define policy - they are the government. We dress it all up for them by putting X marks on practically meaningless bits of paper every five years. We play our part largely by failing to notice and by operating in isolation from one another politically and socially speaking. That's what we are supposed to do. Worry exclusively about ourselves and leave the rest up to them. They don't want us involved at all.

In the current politcal climate - with deeply unpopular wars, climate change and other imminent catastrophes impinging on the public consciousness - rattling us all out of our long sleep of complacency, people are beginning to question a lot of fundamentals. Naturally, the corporates would like this stopped. This is really dangerous. All over Ireland there are protests of one sort or another which, whether they intended it as such or not, actually aim right at the heart of the corporate establishment and are threatening it in ways that it does not like, not one little bit. The strategic infrastructure bill was an example of a backlash against protest and democratic accountability - it removed many of the demcratic rights of ordinary people to make government accountable for how it manages resrouces. Now, this new bill is threatening an even greater encroachment on civil liberties and the ONLY people whose interests can possibly be served by this are the corporates who want carte blance to stifle all this sort of protest or public involvement. Look how effectively the small Mayo community has held Shell to account for what is undoubtedly a savagely unfair and unwise project as currently planned.

'Terrorism' is the rationale behind which any and all kinds of shit can be done. From illegal invasions that murder a million and more in Iraq, to the silencing of dissent in a small country like Ireland - all over the world this same strategy is being rolled out wherever possible. The US is anticipating - planning for major confrontations with the other major economic blocs and the last thing it wants is sniper fire or dissent from within. To bring us all along for the ride, we are being asked to believe that unless we agree to legislation like this, which is about criminalising rational speech and thought - you must agree that you are actively encouraging the blowing up of innocent people by objecting to anything that is proposed no matter how outrageous. Many western governments have cravenly signed up to the US project by signing extradition agreements and such like. The US knows that by far and away the greatest 'enemy' it faces is not the 'evil-doers' like Saddam etc. but ordinary people everywhere, whose cooperation/capitulation will be contained by coercion if need be. This the thin end of the wedge.

We are now the enemy, and that is what this legislation is all about.

For those with a better knowledge than I on the Lisbon Treaty, which would be everyone here, is there any provision for a federal police force.

One reference: Chomsky. Kind of says it all.

I'd take some of it seriously if it didn't regard itself as absolute fact.

Quote :

I'm kind of amazed that there is anyone left who doesn't realise... Irish people ought to wake up to the fact that... there is little doubt... Irish people seem to think... what is really going on... In fact... the ONLY people...

I'm kind of amazed at the arrogance displayed here. One or two of these are excusable, I probably do it myself, but a long article full of such 'facts' is not going to convert me. Please try to express these concepts as opinions rather than objective facts, it'll make your arguments seem, well, less silly.

This is a story we have to take the Irish Times' word on. I don't know why Gardaí want to expand their powers but I doubt it is to do with terrorism. They already have the power to deal with that level of crime (whether rightly or wrongly but that's another topic), this development is something new that deserves to be discussed in its own right. It may - here's a mad idea - have something to do with solving crime. The ONLY people whose interests are served here might include ordinary citizens, if that's what these powers are being used for.

As for the rest of it, well I assume it advocates fascism because it seems to take a 'voters are stupid, if only they'd listen to me' line which is fairly patronising and is becoming increasingly popular.

youngdan wrote:

For those with a better knowledge than I on the Lisbon Treaty, which would be everyone here, is there any provision for a federal police force.

No, nor for an army though they want increased cooperation between the forces. There is some sort of judicial aspect (which I don't get), which doesn't involve us or the British. It is to challenge the increased transnational aspect of criminality, but Ireland and Britain preferred their own justice systems and opted out. Certainly no single police force though.

905 wrote:

One reference: Chomsky. Kind of says it all.

I'd take some of it seriously if it didn't regard itself as absolute fact.

Quote :

I'm kind of amazed that there is anyone left who doesn't realise... Irish people ought to wake up to the fact that... there is little doubt... Irish people seem to think... what is really going on... In fact... the ONLY people...

I'm kind of amazed at the arrogance displayed here. One or two of these are excusable, I probably do it myself, but a long article full of such 'facts' is not going to convert me. Please try to express these concepts as opinions rather than objective facts, it'll make your arguments seem, well, less silly.

This is a story we have to take the Irish Times' word on. I don't know why Gardaí want to expand their powers but I doubt it is to do with terrorism. They already have the power to deal with that level of crime (whether rightly or wrongly but that's another topic), this development is something new that deserves to be discussed in its own right. It may - here's a mad idea - have something to do with solving crime. The ONLY people whose interests are served here might include ordinary citizens, if that's what these powers are being used for.

As for the rest of it, well I assume it advocates fascism because it seems to take a 'voters are stupid, if only they'd listen to me' line which is fairly patronising and is becoming increasingly popular.

Well put.

I'm glad that attention has been drawn to this and feel it is well worth serious discussion. What I don't like is casual use of the term facism. When all democratic institutions are closed down and MN posters hung upside down by their toes in a cellar, then we can talk about facism (or maybe not).

905 wrote:

This is a story we have to take the Irish Times' word on. I don't know
why Gardaí want to expand their powers but I doubt it is to do with
terrorism. They already have the power to deal with that level of crime
(whether rightly or wrongly but that's another topic), this development
is something new that deserves to be discussed in its own right. It may
- here's a mad idea - have something to do with solving crime. The ONLY people whose interests are served here might include ordinary citizens, if that's what these powers are being used for.

I hate the word "may" almost as much as you hate opinions you opine as pretending to be facts. You suggest that this act may have something to do with solving crime. Care to give a few examples that are currently unsolvable due to deficiencies in state powers?

This legislation and other stuff like it (already passed into law) are putting the cart before the horse. Gathering evidence in order to suggest a crime has been committed later on. It is fundamentally opposed to the notion (yup, it's now only a notion) of guilty until proven innocent, by assuming that everone's guilty of something. It is an extreme invasion of the privacy of the individual and it even goes so far as to invade the constitutional inviolability of the home under the colour of law.

905 wrote:

One reference: Chomsky. Kind of says it all.

I'm pretty sure that I understand what you're saying here. I'm not so sure though what you're basing it on. Has Chomsky been discredited by some reputable source, or is this opinion striving to be taken as fact? In fairness, I don't like to read or listen to Chomsky as I find him very droll and tiring. Yet I cannot think of a single fact he's spoken of or written about that I would consider to be mere opinion, much less wrong.

As for not liking the voters to be bluntly called stupid. Well that's fair enough too. But you were talking about "loons" a while ago, and were hardly praising their intellectual abilities. These loons are voters too, or at least they are potential voters. Personally, I don't reckon that Irish people in general are stupid, despite the evidence offered by the state that our country is in. I believe that in general, Irish people are very well informed (in spite of attempts to make it otherwise). I reckon the problem is apathy, not stupidity. There are so many issues, for example, that it would be an impossibility to be passionate about them all.

As Bertie said: "Lot's done, Lot's more to do." I'd respectfully suggest that the "lots more," has increased dramatically over the years, rather than decrease. The results of apathy and stupidity are the same and we are living them.

I have said myself that I'd love to know what these new powers are for. I'm merely suggesting non-terrorist or 'evil whoever taking over the world' uses for them. This could just be the IT pulling our legs though; has there been independent confirmation of this scoop yet?

The Chomsky remark was petty; I apologise to Aragon. I'd remove it but that would only be covering-up my earlier pettiness. He (Chomsky) is a man of particular views and is not regarded as the most objective voice in the whole wide world (I think I'm safe enough there). One swallow doesn't make a summer was my point, I suppose.

When I mentioned loons, I was referring to those who equate a few extra powers and indeed the current status quo with the good old days of Hitler. I support their right to vote and I don't think it meaningless. But it seems some people regard my vote as meaningless though, and I resent this. But generally touché, Hermes, on my arrogance.

Apathy is a right too, though it is fair to regard it sometimes as a problem. but, there are plenty of problems in the world without dreaming up conspiracies.

Well that's fair enough 905. I wasn't intending to pull you up for arrogance (something I'm not short of myself). I understand how stuff can come out in the heat of battle, as it were. Folks who read our blatherings and who've not been involved in the heat, might (or may ) see our freudian slips as genuine argument. If these readers generally respect a certain poster, these slips can cause opinions to be formed that are very far from being fact based.

This is not to say, that there should be a lack of passion. Jaysus, life'd not be worth living.

Conspiracies are very real and in my opinion should not be confused with the crap spewed by the professional conspiracy theorists of the flat earth society.

Don't tone down your approach 905, I like it. I think it'd be impossible to legislate for in a moderation sense anyway. And of course we can always clarify our positions afterwards, when the fugue of battle has abated.

I'm liking MN more and more each day. In most other places we'd have fully gutted each other and would be informing our respective allies how much of a prick the other was. The debate would have gotten tossed into the air and be forgotten about like a lonely sliotar at a hurling riot.

fugue - lovely word, beautifully used - well done

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

fugue - lovely word, beautifully used - well done

Many thanks. It is a lovely word.