I thought it might pick an easy topic just to get this new forum started...

So why are the gods - or Gods - afraid of women? I'm not familiar enough with Hinduism, Judaism or Buddhism to know their attitudes to the fairer sex but the Catholic Church's teachings and those of the Muslim faith seem to remain in the dark ages not just in terms of the role of women within the churches (which is possibly the acid test) but in society.

At times, their prescriptions would seem to be diametrically opposed to what are the basic dignities of humankind. I'm thinking particularly of the views that hold women as chattels in their own homes: as far as I know the Catholic Church, for example still holds the belief that a woman has no right to 'deny' her husband sex. Well publicised cases of Muslim women being stoned or lashed following a rape show how devalued women are in that faith. I consider the practice of arranged marriages as a form of abuse.

What's the problem with women that has become the problem of churches?

There was I thinking if there actually was a God - she'd have to be a woman - it takes some serious multi-tasking to create an entire world in 6 days and mind the kid and Casper!

Edo wrote:

There was I thinking if there actually was a God - she'd have to be a woman - it takes some serious multi-tasking to create an entire world in 6 days and mind the kid and Casper!

You've also no doubt heard the old chestnut that She created man, said to herself "I can do better than this" and created woman... but that's not really where I'm going with this.

Yeah - I know - you are looking for a serious answer to this

Well as a born again Atheist - I'm not really the best authority on all this - but in a nutshell - as I'll be dashing out the door in a little while - I think you have to remember that Christianity and Islam were orginally pretty far out cults led by charasmatic and status quo threathening visionaries - when they became popular and insitutionalised by the rulers (ie Constantine), the rules,beliefs and mores were rewritten to complement the conservative societies in which they spread - for christianity that mean getting rid of all those heretical texts, writing all the women in Jesus lives into bit parts and into mens favourite women roles - the virgin and the prostitute and out of all powerful roles.

might come back to this later - see ya

Kate P wrote:

So why are the gods - or Gods - afraid of women?

4 possible reasons:

1. God created women and so knows how flawed and dangerous they are.

or if the situation was created by humans...

2. Prejudice.
3. Oppression.
4. Good judgment.

Edo wrote:

Yeah - I know - you are looking for a serious answer to this

Well as a born again Atheist - I'm not really the best authority on all this - but in a nutshell - as I'll be dashing out the door in a little while - I think you have to remember that Christianity and Islam were orginally pretty far out cults led by charasmatic and status quo threathening visionaries - when they became popular and insitutionalised by the rulers (ie Constantine), the rules,beliefs and mores were rewritten to complement the conservative societies in which they spread - for christianity that mean getting rid of all those heretical texts, writing all the women in Jesus lives into bit parts and into mens favourite women roles - the virgin and the prostitute and out of all powerful roles.

might come back to this later - see ya

I hope you're not suggesting that it was Constantine who reduced the number of texts, or for that matter, that those heretical texts were ever considered canon?

It is hard to find anything sensible written about Goddess worship, but the Greeks, Romans and Eygyptians had no problem with them. All agricultural societies tended to worship goddesses for obvious reasons. Wasn't our Bridget a goddess associated with milk?
There is a deep impulse to worship goddesses. Mariolatry I suppose reflects it. The extraordinary cult that for a few weeks rose up around the dead Princess Diana is perhaps the most vivid experience we have of how a goddess came on the scene. Religion and gods and goddesses embody what we love, what we fear and what we need. There seems to be something very strange about suppressing that, when it comes to women.

cactus flower wrote:

It is hard to find anything sensible written about Goddess worship, but the Greeks, Romans and Eygyptians had no problem with them. All agricultural societies tended to worship goddesses for obvious reasons. Wasn't our Bridget a goddess associated with milk?
There is a deep impulse to worship goddesses. Mariolatry I suppose reflects it. The extraordinary cult that for a few weeks rose up around the dead Princess Diana is perhaps the most vivid experience we have of how a goddess came on the scene. Religion and gods and goddesses embody what we love, what we fear and what we need. There seems to be something very strange about suppressing that, when it comes to women.

Mary was once referred to in irish as a bhó bhithbhléin, oh ever milkgiving cow.

riadach wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

It is hard to find anything sensible written about Goddess worship, but the Greeks, Romans and Eygyptians had no problem with them. All agricultural societies tended to worship goddesses for obvious reasons. Wasn't our Bridget a goddess associated with milk?
There is a deep impulse to worship goddesses. Mariolatry I suppose reflects it. The extraordinary cult that for a few weeks rose up around the dead Princess Diana is perhaps the most vivid experience we have of how a goddess came on the scene. Religion and gods and goddesses embody what we love, what we fear and what we need. There seems to be something very strange about suppressing that, when it comes to women.

Mary was once referred to in irish as a bhó bhithbhléin, oh ever milkgiving cow.

riadach wrote:

Edo wrote:

Yeah - I know - you are looking for a serious answer to this

Well as a born again Atheist - I'm not really the best authority on all this - but in a nutshell - as I'll be dashing out the door in a little while - I think you have to remember that Christianity and Islam were orginally pretty far out cults led by charasmatic and status quo threathening visionaries - when they became popular and insitutionalised by the rulers (ie Constantine), the rules,beliefs and mores were rewritten to complement the conservative societies in which they spread - for christianity that mean getting rid of all those heretical texts, writing all the women in Jesus lives into bit parts and into mens favourite women roles - the virgin and the prostitute and out of all powerful roles.

might come back to this later - see ya

I hope you're not suggesting that it was Constantine who reduced the number of texts, or for that matter, that those heretical texts were ever considered canon?

Who decided what was canon? and for that matter was the word "canon" even around in the 4th century AD - it was under Constantine and those who followed him that Christianity became formalised and tamed and subjected to the will of the centres of power - from where it has never departed.

Edo wrote:

Who decided what was canon? and for that matter was the word "canon" even around in the 4th century AD - it was under Constantine and those who followed him that Christianity became formalised and tamed and subjected to the will of the centres of power - from where it has never departed.

It was decided well before the council of nicaea which gospels would be acceptable for canon, a few centuries even. Even then, Constantine maintained a supervisory role at the council, and its motions were decided by common consent. It's a common misconception, mainly used by conspiracy theorists, that Constantine altered and tamed the religion for his own political purposes. He couldn't possibly have. The basic texts to be used as a basis for Christianity, even the main doctrines of the church, had already been long established.

BE AFRAID !!! BE VERY AFRAID !!!



"All creation is the sport of my mad mother Kali"
Kali is the Hindu Goddess of life, death, and rebirth. She is the Dark Mother who creates and destroys. Several stories tell of her origin–she is usually the dark part of another Goddess (such as Parvati or Durga), separated out in order to fulfill her task of killing demons. In her most popular myth, Kali slaughtered the demons, enemies of the Gods, and then danced on the battleground, drunk with blood. Her dancing grew to be so frenzied that the Gods were afraid. Lord Shiva, the only one who could control her, lay down on the battlefield himself to get her attention. When Kali stepped on him, she realized what she was doing and stuck out her tongue in dismay. It is in this pose that she is most well-known, with her blue-black skin, wearing a necklace of human heads and a skirt of human arms. In this depiction, Kali has four arms: they hold a sword, a trident, a severed head, and a cup to catch the blood from the head. Her right foot is on Shiva’s chest.
Kali’s name is from the Sanskrit word kala, meaning either “black” or “time”, depending on the context. Her various other names reflect her different forms:
Attahasayuta (laughing loudly)
Balidanapriya (fond of animal sacrifice)
Bhadra Kali (adamantine)
Bhadrakali Vilakshi Kamadatri (giving desires)
Bhairavabhavini Bhavananta Sarasvataprada (bestower of eloquence)
Bhavani
Bhavatarini (redeemer of the universe)
Bhayanaka (giving fear)
Bhima Chandi
Bhimanadini (sounding terrifying)
Bhurbhuvasvahsvarupini (true form of Bhurbhuvahsvar)
Cchinnajata Jatajutavilasini Sarvarajayutabhima Sarvarajoparisthata Shmashanstha (dwelling in the cremation ground)
Chamunda
Chaturvargaprada (giver of the four aims)
Daksina Kali (remover of the fear of death)
Danavendraprapujita (worshipped by Danavas)
Devi Khadgahasta (holding a cleaver)
Dukhadaridyanashini (destroyer of unhappiness and poverty)
Garbha (the womb)
Gauri (golden one)
Gayatri Savitri Mahanilasarasvati Lakshmirlakshanasamyukta (showing all the signs of Lakshmi)
Guhya Kali (secret)
Jagadamba (world mother)
Jagadanandakarini (cause of bliss in the world)
Jagadvighnasini (destroyer of world obstacles)
Jaganmata (mother of the world)
Jaganmayi (consisting of the world)
Jagatsara (essence of the world)
Kadamba-pushpamalini (wearing a garland of kadamba flowers)
Kadamba-pushpasantosa (taking delight in the kadamba flowers)
Kadambari-panarata (who drinks the kadamba flower wine)
Kadambari-priya (excited and pleased with the kadamba wine)
Kadamba-vanasamcara (wanderer in the kadamba forest)
Kadamba-vanavasini (who lives in the kadamba forest)
Kadambini (dark as a bank of rain-clouds)
Kaladhara (bearer of the crescent moon and all female energy)
Kalahamsa-gati (moving and swaying as a swan)
Kalakantaka-ghatini (destructress of the fear of death)
Kalakanthi (with a soft and deep-throated voice)
Kalakarshini (conqueror and/or destroyer of time)
Kalamanjira-carana (whose toe-bells sound sweet melodies)
Kalamata (mother and destructress of time)
Kalanada-ninadini (sweet as the chakravaka bird)
Kalanala-samadyuti (brilliant as the fires of the final dissolution)
Kalaratri (black night)
Kalatmika (self of kalas)
Kalavati (possessor of all the arts)
Kali Kalaratrisvarupini (true form of the night of time)
Kali Ma (mother of karma)
Kali Mahamaya (the great sorceress)
Kali Nath
Kalidarpaghni (destructress of pride)
Kalika (devourer of him who devours [Shiva])
Kalikalmasa-nasini (destructress of Evil)
Kalikamata (black earth-mother)
Kalpalata (creeper who provides every desire)
Kalyani (bestower of peace and happiness)
Kamabija-japananda (excited to hear ‘klim’ [mantra of sexual union])
Kamabija-svarupini (embodiment of the mantra ‘klim’)
Kamala (who enjoys and is herself enjoyed)
Kamalalaya-madhyastha (abiding in the center of the lotus)
Kamalamoda-modini (pleased and intoxicated by the scent of lotus)
Kamalasana-santushta (lover of the lotus flower)
Kamalasana-vasini (delighted to be seated within the lotus)
Kamaniya (beautiful one)
Kamaniya-gunaradhya (adorable image of all tenderness)
Kamaniya-vibhushana (beauty is thy ornament)
Kamapasa-vimocini (liberator from the bonds of desire)
Kamapitha-vilasini (playing at the Kamakhya Pitha)
Kamarupa (in the form of desire)
Kamarupa-kritavasa (who lives in the place of sexual desire)
Kamarupini (assuming any form she desires)
Kamkalamalya-dharini (wearing a garland of bones)
Kancanacala-kaumudi (shining moon-beam on the mountain of gold)
Kancanadri-kritagara (residing in the golden mountain [Meru])
Kantukini (joyous one)
Kapalapatra-nirata (drinking from a skull-cup)
Kapali (wearer of skulls)
Kapalini Kurukulla Viprachitta Kantachitta Madonmada (drunk with desire)
Kapardini (lover of him with the matted hair [Shiva])
Kapardisha-kripanvita (kind and devoted to him with the matted hair [Shiva])
Kapila (tawny-colored one)
Karalasya (thou of formidable countenance with teeth like fangs)
Karali (frightening)
Karanamrita-santosha (pleased with the nectar of purified wine)
Karanananda-japeshta (deity of those who worship with wine)
Karanananda-siddhida (giver of success to those who enjoy wine)
Karanarcana-harshita (glad to be worshipped with purified wine)
Karanarnava-sammagma (immersed in an ocean of wine)
Karanavrata-palini (protecting those who perform ritual with wine)
Karpura-candanakshita (body painted with camphor and sandal paste)
Karpura-karanahlada (pleased with purified wine flavored with camphor)
Karpura-malabharana (adorned with garlands of camphor)
Karpuramoda-modita (whom the scent of camphor gladdens)
Karpuramrita-payini (drinker of nectar flavored with camphor)
Karpura-sagaralaya (at home in the ocean of camphor)
Karpura-sagarasnata (bathing in the ocean of camphor)
Karunamrita-sagara (ocean of the nectar of compassion)
Kashtahartri (allayer of all suffering)
Kasishvara-dayini (giver of blessings to the Lord of Varanasi [Shiva])
Kasishvara-kritamoda (giver of pleasures to the Lord of Varanasi)
Kasishvara-manorama (beloved of Shiva who overwhelms his mind)
Kasishvari (Queen of the Sacred City [Varanasi])
Kasturi-bhojanaprita (who is pleased to eat musk of the musk deer)
Kasturi-dahajanani (mother of those who burn musk as incense)
Kasturim-rigatoshini (who is fond of the musk deer)
Kasturi-pujakapriya (loving those who worship her with musk)
Kasturi-pujanarata (excited by worship with musk)
Kasturi-saurabhamoda (gladdened by the scent of musk)
Kasturi-tilakojjvala (luminous one with a mark of musk on her forehead)
Kaulika-priyakarini (benefactress of the Kula)
Kaulika-radhya (adored by Kula Tantrics)
Kausiki
Kishori (thou who art ever youthful)
Klaibyanasini (destroying all fears)
Komalamgi (delicate and tender-bodied)
Kottavei
Kripadhara (vessel of compassion)
Kripagama (attainable only by her compassion)
Kripamayi (truly merciful)
Kripapara (whose mercy is without limit)
Krishanu (thou art fire)
Krishna (black of hue as is Krishna)
Krishnananda-vivardhini (who increases joy and bliss of Krishna)
Krishodari (slender of waist)
Kulacara (observant of the Kulacara)
Kulakamini (Lady of the Kula)
Kulamarga-pradarshini (revealing the Kula-Path to seekers)
Kulina (embodiment of the Kula teachings)
Kulinarti-nasini (destructress of the Kula’s afflictions)
Kumari-bhojanananda (pleased by the feasts and gifts to the virgins)
Kumari-pujakalaya (refuge of all virgin worshippers)
Kumari-pujanaprita (pleased by the worship of virgin girls)
Kumari-rupadharini (who is in the form of a virgin)
Kumatighni (destructress of all evil inclinations)
Kurchabija-japaprita (pleased by worship with the mantra ‘hum’)
Kurchajapa-parayayana (threatening and conquering demons with ‘hum’)
Kvanatkanci-vibhusana (whose girdle-bells tinkle ever so sweet)
Madanaprita Madaghurnitalochana (eyes full of desire)
Madhya Trivalivalayanchita Gandharvaihsamstutasa (praised by the Gandharvas)
Madottirna Kharparasinaramundavilasini Naramundasraja (with a necklace of men’s heads)
Maha Kali (the great mother)
Mahagaurasarvanga (greatly golden in all limbs)
Mahakali Jagadhatri (creator of the world)
Mahanandistuta (praised by Mahanandi)
Mahishasuradhatini Shivapujya (worshipped by Shiva)
Matangi (elephant lady)
Maya
Maya Mahamaya Mahodaya
Mohini
Muktakeshi (dishevelled of hair)
Nanda Siddhacharanasevita (served by Siddhacharas)
Nilameghavarna (the colour of a blue rain-cloud)
Nilavani (blue Sarasvati)
Nitya Kali (endless time)
Padma (lotus)
Padmaragopashobhita Karabhayaprada (hand removing fear)
Pavitra Parama (supreme)
Phalaharini Kali
Prakiritia (nature)
Purnenduvadana (with a face like the full moon)
Rakshakali (the protectress)
Sadhvi (holy)
Samdiptalochana Shavasanarata (addicted to the corpse asana)
Samhlada Viparitaratatura (addicted to taking the superior sexual role)
Sandhya
Sarvalakshanalakshita (having every single characteristic)
Sarvamangalamangala (greatest fortune of all)
Sarvasampatprada (giver of all prosperity)
Sarvasarvabhisthaphalaprada (giver of the fruit of every possible desire)
Sarvavidyamayi (consisting of all vidya)
Savitri (mother of the Vedas)
Sharatjyotsna (light of the autumn moon)
Sheetla (the goddess of smallpox)
Shivaprita (loved by Shiva)
Shyama Kali (dispeller of fear)
Siddha Kali
Sidheshvari
Smashana Kali (ever joyous dancer)
Sundaripara (supremely beautiful)
Svadha Svaha Vashatkara Saradindusamaprabha (as bright as the autumn moon)
Ugra Chandi
Varavarnini Vararoha Shivaruha (riding Shiva)
Vidhatri (creatrix)
Vidhatrivaradayini (giver of boons in creation)
Vindhyavasini
Vishvamata (cosmic mother)
Vyaghracharmavrita (wearing tiger skin)

riadach wrote:

Edo wrote:

Who decided what was canon? and for that matter was the word "canon" even around in the 4th century AD - it was under Constantine and those who followed him that Christianity became formalised and tamed and subjected to the will of the centres of power - from where it has never departed.

It was decided well before the council of nicaea which gospels would be acceptable for canon, a few centuries even. Even then, Constantine maintained a supervisory role at the council, and its motions were decided by common consent. It's a common misconception, mainly used by conspiracy theorists, that Constantine altered and tamed the religion for his own political purposes. He couldn't possibly have. The basic texts to be used as a basis for Christianity, even the main doctrines of the church, had already been long established.

Well I dont mean Constantine himself - as far as I know he stayed a pagan all his life - but he saw the use in Christianity and allowed it become an official religion. Im not talking conspiracy theories here - da vinci code shite and all that - the whole shooting game is a bunch of bananas to me personally - but it is interesting that these other pieces have been found that would appear to contradict the official - all nation builders and empire builders use myth to propogate a certain view of what happened and also that it should reinforce and agree with the power and mores as the society which it permeates - Christianity and Islam are indicative of this - the stricter and purer the conservatism ,the more the religion reflects the mores of the society upon which it is built on and sadly that societies attitude to women is reflected in that too.

What is the de facto involvement of women in Catholic parishes around the country these days? I know they can't be priests obviously but would there be female chairpersons of parish committees and that? Beyond the catering committee of course.

Edo wrote:

Well I dont mean Constantine himself - as far as I know he stayed a pagan all his life - but he saw the use in Christianity and allowed it become an official religion. Im not talking conspiracy theories here - da vinci code shite and all that - the whole shooting game is a bunch of bananas to me personally - but it is interesting that these other pieces have been found that would appear to contradict the official - all nation builders and empire builders use myth to propogate a certain view of what happened and also that it should reinforce and agree with the power and mores as the society which it permeates - Christianity and Islam are indicative of this - the stricter and purer the conservatism ,the more the religion reflects the mores of the society upon which it is built on and sadly that societies attitude to women is reflected in that too.

He is rumoured to have remained pagan, and was baptised on his deathbed so that all his previous sins were forgiven. There was no manipulation on his part, neither is there any evidence of any manipulation of the religion by temporal powers nation builders and what not. I'm unaware of any evidence that suggests this, but I'm no biblical scholar. That is not to say that certain nation builders did not cherry-pick parts of the old and new testament for the sake of their own personal gain. Nor does it mean that they did not manipulate the theologians of their time. How the movement was a two way street.

Most of the other pieces you refer to, were actually composed much later than the actual gospels themselves. Some in the second and third centuries. Indeed the only early gospels that have not been admitted to canon are the gospel of Peter and the Gospel of Thomas, neither of which are as far outside the mainstream as the gnostic gospels are.

The attitudes to women, I would argue, are due to relativism. They reflect the attitude of many church fathers at the time, such as St Paul and Augustine of Hippo, down through to bernard of Clairvaux. Indeed, other than requiring twice as many women for testimony in Islam, I'm not sure there are many disabilities placed on women therein. Most of this are to be found in the ahadith, which some Muslims, such as Yuksel, regard as being later interpolations and justifications for the rule of later caliphs. This clearly is the sort of temporal interpolation that you are referring to, but it is almost wholly absent from christianity. Give to caesar that which is caesar's, give to god that which it god's.

johnfás wrote:

What is the de facto involvement of women in Catholic parishes around the country these days? I know they can't be priests obviously but would there be female chairpersons of parish committees and that? Beyond the catering committee of course.

And we do make a mean tea and brack...

riadach wrote:

Edo wrote:

Well I dont mean Constantine himself - as far as I know he stayed a pagan all his life - but he saw the use in Christianity and allowed it become an official religion. Im not talking conspiracy theories here - da vinci code shite and all that - the whole shooting game is a bunch of bananas to me personally - but it is interesting that these other pieces have been found that would appear to contradict the official - all nation builders and empire builders use myth to propogate a certain view of what happened and also that it should reinforce and agree with the power and mores as the society which it permeates - Christianity and Islam are indicative of this - the stricter and purer the conservatism ,the more the religion reflects the mores of the society upon which it is built on and sadly that societies attitude to women is reflected in that too.

He is rumoured to have remained pagan, and was baptised on his deathbed so that all his previous sins were forgiven. There was no manipulation on his part, neither is there any evidence of any manipulation of the religion by temporal powers nation builders and what not. I'm unaware of any evidence that suggests this, but I'm no biblical scholar. That is not to say that certain nation builders did not cherry-pick parts of the old and new testament for the sake of their own personal gain. Nor does it mean that they did not manipulate the theologians of their time. How the movement was a two way street.

Most of the other pieces you refer to, were actually composed much later than the actual gospels themselves. Some in the second and third centuries. Indeed the only early gospels that have not been admitted to canon are the gospel of Peter and the Gospel of Thomas, neither of which are as far outside the mainstream as the gnostic gospels are.

The attitudes to women, I would argue, are due to relativism. They reflect the attitude of many church fathers at the time, such as St Paul and Augustine of Hippo, down through to bernard of Clairvaux. Indeed, other than requiring twice as many women for testimony in Islam, I'm not sure there are many disabilities placed on women therein. Most of this are to be found in the ahadith, which some Muslims, such as Yuksel, regard as being later interpolations and justifications for the rule of later caliphs. This clearly is the sort of temporal interpolation that you are referring to, but it is almost wholly absent from christianity. Give to caesar that which is caesar's, give to god that which it god's.

Some cynics have suggested that male celibacy was the best way of conserving and accumulating the massive wealth of the church. However the maleness of god(s) in Judeo-Christian religion is surely in the main a reflection of the prevailing power structures in civil society?

cactus flower wrote:

Some cynics have suggested that male celibacy was the best way of conserving and accumulating the massive wealth of the church. However the maleness of god(s) in Judeo-Christian religion is surely in the main a reflection of the prevailing power structures in civil society?

It's not just cynics. It's actually fact. During the gregorian reform of the 11th century celibacy was established as a regular rule due to the fact that it prevented the benefices of the church, i.e. the land and office associated with the title of bishop, from being passed from father to son. Indeed, the main complaint that the gregorian church had with the Irish one, was that celibacy was not the norm here. Many Irish benefices were passed through families creating many coarbships and erenaghoods.

I think Hinduism is magic. I love it. In my head I have converted to Hiduism, because it is not a religion, more a way of life.

Slightly contradictory to that is that while I was in India, I was told I cannot convert to Hinduism, I have to be born into it. I didn't mind. Win some-lose some.

My favourite Hindu God is Ganesh - The Elephant God. I keep a gold plaster one in my kitchen. I love it. Hindus pray to Ganesh when they need to move an immovable object - we send money to our local TD.

Great list of Gods Kate, I'll be reading them for ages. There are apparently thousands.

I think cactus flower posted that list - and they are all names for the same multi-tasking goddess, Kali.

Riadach, what you say about the introduction of celibacy to protect property rights isn't really surprising but it led to the exclusion of women in an almost by-the-way fashion.

But the myth of Eve and Adam was borne out of some cultural/social belief that women are a moral touchstone but easily corrupted and therefore somehow untrustworthy - in some ways venerable and at the same time corruptible. It's not so long ago that pregnant, unmarried women were stashed away in laundries (ironically run by the Ave-type woman rather than the Eves who made up the guestlist) but the role of the men involved seems to have been utterly ignored. We have come some way in that regard but very, very slowly and I don't see that Pope Benedict is a man who is likely to embrace women - in any sense.

The prevalence of honour killings in Islam and the nasty tradition of disfiguring women who are thought to be 'impure' points again to this underlying notion that women are a poisonous threat to a moral life. Islam also virtually excludes women from the burial process as I experienced at the funeral of a Muslim teenager. What's the source of the belief that underlies these inequities and prejudices? And why, in an age of human rights, psychology and globalisation, do they persist?


johnfás asked are there women involved in chairing parish councils. I'm sure there are but not in my parish where the priest rules with an subtle but iron fist.

Kate P wrote:

johnfás asked are there women involved in chairing parish councils. I'm sure there are but not in my parish where the priest rules with an subtle but iron fist.

Ah they can't get away with that sort of thing in the Methodist Church - we'd revolt!

Husband is Presbyterian - they'd revolt too if they weren't so doddery. Ancient but in charge - Presbyterian community is rather small in Cowen Country.

Strange how the reformed churches moved on...

It has to be remembered that patriarchy is a human universal, as far as anyone knows. Never has a society been found that isn't unfair to women in some manner or other. Don't believe any hippy stuff you hear about pagans or Indians treating women equally, they're just as likely to discriminate.

Of course, some societies take it much further than others. But ultimately the fault lies not in religion but in society, or probably biology.

905 wrote:

It has to be remembered that patriarchy is a human universal, as far as anyone knows. Never has a society been found that isn't unfair to women in some manner or other. Don't believe any hippy stuff you hear about pagans or Indians treating women equally, they're just as likely to discriminate.

Of course, some societies take it much further than others. But ultimately the fault lies not in religion but in society, or probably biology.

Ever since I got my first Kalashnikov I have felt a lot more equal.

Kate P wrote:

Husband is Presbyterian - they'd revolt too if they weren't so doddery. Ancient but in charge - Presbyterian community is rather small in Cowen Country.

Strange how the reformed churches moved on...

Mmm, yea the reformed churches have moved on to an extent. Certainly in the Methodist Church, I would say that we have achieved parity between the sexes, albeit not yet numerically. However, the number of females entering the Methodist Ministry in Ireland outstrips males both in terms of fulltime vocations and also in terms of lay preachers. The Director of Ministry at our theological seminary is a woman and there are no bars to a woman being the President of the Methodist Church in Ireland. Hasn't happened yet in Ireland, although it is merely a metter of time - there has been one in the Methodist Church in Britain.

However, the issue of female ordination and broader involvement in the Church is a huge issue within Anglicanism. In many ways the ongoing difficulties faced by the Anglican Church in regard to Homosexuality is a manifestation of the difficulties which initially arose in the early 90s with female ordination. It is the same groups who are now involved in the controversy as they were then and to say the least they still hold a grudge that they lost out on that one.