Teachers to ballot on Industrial action.

The reality for many two income families is that when the teachers go on strike mammy or daddy can't go to work. Striking teachers means a massive rise in absenteeism. Why not go the whole hog and call the whole country out? Their stated aim is to overturn the pension levy, but a u-turn of this magnitude means the fall of the Government so the teachers may as well just push for that anyway. I hope they don't drag it out for months. Maybe start with a one day strike, followed a week later by a one week strike, followed a month later by an indefinite strike. The Government will be gone before June.

Ar aghaidh go deo go mbeirimid bua!

Teachers to ballot on industrial action - Pin

Do you think the Opposition would be a useful alternative ???? - if the Govt. is dragged down.

coc wrote:

Teachers to ballot on Industrial action.

The reality for many two income families is that when the teachers go on strike mammy or daddy can't go to work. Striking teachers means a massive rise in absenteeism. Why not go the whole hog and call the whole country out? Their stated aim is to overturn the pension levy, but a u-turn of this magnitude means the fall of the Government so the teachers may as well just push for that anyway. I hope they don't drag it out for months. Maybe start with a one day strike, followed a week later by a one week strike, followed a month later by an indefinite strike. The Government will be gone before June.

Ar aghaidh go deo go mbeirimid bua!

Yeah, great idea.
Fuck democracy so long as you get what you want.
Anyway we don't need an indefinite strike, six weeks would do it, we'd save over 10% right there.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Teachers to ballot on industrial action - Pin
Do you think the Opposition would be a useful alternative ???? - if the Govt. is dragged down.

Not necessarily, but the credibility of this Government is shot to ribbons at this stage. The regulatory institutions of the state colluded with the banks to defraud international markets, under the apparent guidance of this Government. You might feel FG/Lab wouldn't have a clue what to do, but at least they wouldn't be carrying that humiliating baggage around with them. If the top brass in Anglo & ILP had to walk the plank to preserve the integrity of the reputations of those instititutions then the Government has to walk the plank to preserve the intergrity of the country's reputation.

No one voted for Cowen as Taoiseach, the majority didnt vote for the Greens, and no one voted for what we're getting now. If Government wants to call democracy, it should come forward with its programme and put it to a General Election.
Public and private sector workers need to stick together. A National Strike is a means, not an end. If we have a national strike, what should its be its demands? SFAIC nationalising the banks, removing the bank CEOs and Chairmen, and a new government to protect jobs, invest in worker's co-ops, protect social supports and public services on a fair and equal basis would be a start.

National strikes are rather wasteful and extremely damaging to the economy leading to even less resources to tackle the problems over which the strikes were called. It would be far better for people to continue airing their grievances through the medium of constituency clinics, letters to the editor and the ballot box which will be open this June across the country and in the two by-elections we are due. That would be a far more productive platform for people to communicate their issues with the government to the self-same institution.

And cactus, it doesn't matter that, "no-one voted for Cowen as Taoiseach". We live in a parliamentary, not a presidential system and thank God for that. Brian Cowen was returned to the Dáil by the good people of Laois/Offaly and he fulfilled the basic condition to become Taoiseach there and then. Any one of the 166 TDanna can become Taoiseach so long as they enjoy the majority confidence of Dáil Éireann. We don't pick an Taoiseach, Dáil Éireann does.

Furthermore, it also doesn't matter that the majority didn't vote for the Greens. The majority didn't vote for Fianna Fáil either. No party achieved majority support at the last election so by that logic none of them should be in government. Again, this gets back to our parliamentary system. In this system we are like the dealer at a blackjack table; we deal a certain hand to our political parties to play with. As it happened, only a Fianna Fáil-led government was possible at the last general election. Fianna Fáil expressed a distaste for Sinn Féin based on economics, Labour was in a pre-existing arrangement with Fine Gael while the Green Party and Progressive Democrats were amenable to forming a governmental coalition.

You just posted above what I was going to post in about 10 minutes... regarding parliamentary democracy. So cheers for that! And I agree.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

... It would be far better for people to continue airing their grievances through the medium of constituency clinics, letters to the editor and the ballot box which will be open this June across the country and in the two by-elections we are due. That would be a far more productive platform for people to communicate their issues with the government to the self-same institution. ...

It might be a productive form of communication but it won't remove the Government. The people have a democratic right to remove their consent to be governed by the kleptocratic class and a strike is a perfectly democratic expression of that right. I agree with you that it would be preferable if they'd just resign now and spare us all the hardship, but I don't think they'll jump - they'll have to be pushed.

johnfás wrote:

You just posted above what I was going to post in about 10 minutes... regarding parliamentary democracy. So cheers for that! And I agree.

You are welcome and I appreciate the support.

coc wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

... It would be far better for people to continue airing their grievances through the medium of constituency clinics, letters to the editor and the ballot box which will be open this June across the country and in the two by-elections we are due. That would be a far more productive platform for people to communicate their issues with the government to the self-same institution. ...

It might be a productive form of communication but it won't remove the Government. The people have a democratic right to remove their consent to be governed by the kleptocratic class and a strike is a perfectly democratic expression of that right. I agree with you that it would be preferable if they'd just resign now and spare us all the hardship, but I don't think they'll jump - they'll have to be pushed.

We elected this Dáil to a session of 5 years cognisant, or rather we should be cognisant, of the fact that a lot can happen in 5 years with which the Dáil has to deal. If we want to give the government a kick, there will be two by-elections and local and European elections in which that frustration can be made known. Fianna Fáil's nadir in 2004 after these elections produced a clear policy shift in how the government managed national affairs. The same can happen in 2009. The advantage of doing it through the ballot box is that it doesn't subtract from the already ailing GDP.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

National strikes are rather wasteful and extremely damaging to the economy leading to even less resources to tackle the problems over which the strikes were called. It would be far better for people to continue airing their grievances through the medium of constituency clinics, letters to the editor and the ballot box which will be open this June across the country and in the two by-elections we are due. That would be a far more productive platform for people to communicate their issues with the government to the self-same institution.

And cactus, it doesn't matter that, "no-one voted for Cowen as Taoiseach". We live in a parliamentary, not a presidential system and thank God for that. Brian Cowen was returned to the Dáil by the good people of Laois/Offaly and he fulfilled the basic condition to become Taoiseach there and then. Any one of the 166 TDanna can become Taoiseach so long as they enjoy the majority confidence of Dáil Éireann. We don't pick an Taoiseach, Dáil Éireann does.

Furthermore, it also doesn't matter that the majority didn't vote for the Greens. The majority didn't vote for Fianna Fáil either. No party achieved majority support at the last election so by that logic none of them should be in government. Again, this gets back to our parliamentary system. In this system we are like the dealer at a blackjack table; we deal a certain hand to our political parties to play with. As it happened, only a Fianna Fáil-led government was possible at the last general election. Fianna Fáil expressed a distaste for Sinn Féin based on economics, Labour was in a pre-existing arrangement with Fine Gael while the Green Party and Progressive Democrats were amenable to forming a governmental coalition.

The house is on fire Ard Taoiseach and the children will all be gone if we wait for the full term.

If the electorate come to the conclusion that the current government are simply not capable of extracting us from the mire they have so ably steered us into, are they expected to just sit back and watch the country collapse, waiting for the 5 years to elapse?

If a train is on fire, there's no shame in jumping off. Relief at the the realisation that you are no longer on a burning train ought to be stronger that any lingering embarrassment at the waste of your trainfare.

cactus flower wrote:

The house is on fire Ard Taoiseach and the children will all be gone if we wait for the full term.

Join the Green Party, call an EGM and vote for a withdrawl from Government... this is the democratic process!

cactus flower wrote:

The house is on fire Ard Taoiseach and the children will all be gone if we wait for the full term.

Throw a hundred FF councillors and an MEP out this June and you'll see a step-change in Fianna Fáil's policies. As well as that, the Dáil won't last the full term, it'll be lucky to be here next year. I can see a budget failing to pass in the next two years and there's your General Election.

johnfás wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

The house is on fire Ard Taoiseach and the children will all be gone if we wait for the full term.

Join the Green Party, call an EGM and vote for a withdrawl from Government... this is the democratic process!

Most political parties are set up to avoid that kind of thing: don't get a vote or to attend congress for a year and so on.

I agree with having a recall system - every company has one after all.

I was under the impression that the Greens had alot of power vested in the party membership.

johnfás wrote:

I was under the impression that the Greens had alot of power vested in the party membership.

Playing cuckoo in the nest with a political party you don't agree with in that way would be an abuse of democracy itself.

In Iceland one in every ten persons was out on the streets calling for removal of the Government. Governments aren't physically forced out by strikes and demonstrations (that would be a miitary putsch). If a Government goes prematurely it is usually because they are unable to govern, and the majority are making it clear that they want them to go. Polls can be a good indication of public feeling. Minority demonstrations on their own would be no reason for a government to resign.

A general election is the only to change a Government, any democrat worth the name understands that and would not seek ways to sidestep it.

tonys wrote:

A general election is the only to change a Government, any democrat worth the name understands that and would not seek ways to sidestep it.

At the moment it is but shouldn't democracy itself evolve and adapt and get an upgrade, tonys?

They get to vote on their budgets in other parts of the world for example. Why can't we get a better democracy here ? Why why why ???

Auditor #9 wrote:

tonys wrote:

A general election is the only to change a Government, any democrat worth the name understands that and would not seek ways to sidestep it.

At the moment it is but shouldn't democracy itself evolve and adapt and get an upgrade, tonys?

They get to vote on their budgets in other parts of the world for example. Why can't we get a better democracy here ? Why why why ???

I see very little wrong with the one we have.

Forget the General Strike, pay cuts in the private sector, pay cuts by the back door in the public sector and the undying belief of FFers in each other -

Why the hell has the background gone all Hallmark? Bleaurgh.

The pace of events now is so fast ( not to say their seriousness) that it is imo nonsense to suggest that the electorate, the vast majority of whom have lost all confidence in the Government, should be stuck with them doing more damage for years on end.

There is nothing undemocratic in saying that this government should hold a General Election. It would be under the circumstances a virtual dictatorship if they refuse to do so.

tonys wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

tonys wrote:

A general election is the only to change a Government, any democrat worth the name understands that and would not seek ways to sidestep it.

At the moment it is but shouldn't democracy itself evolve and adapt and get an upgrade, tonys?

They get to vote on their budgets in other parts of the world for example. Why can't we get a better democracy here ? Why why why ???

I see very little wrong with the one we have.

I see a lot wrong - I see this:
* the vast potential to buy elections
* disenfranchisement of the increasingly more educated and more interested from voting and expressing their responsibilities
* disenfranchisement of the less well-educated from learning about civic systems and responsibilities through having to vote a couple of times a year on a tax or law
* the current system is a resignation to the possibility that a power elite want to grab and keep power
* the current system without a mechanism for self-change is a resignation to the scenario where our society refuses to grow in quantity only not in quality
* the current system is hardly representative (I might vote for O'Dea though I wouldn't agree with all he says)
* the system as it is cannot easily be policy-focused and again has in built barriers to clear awareness of policy and planning
* the current set up is not truly democratic and is perhaps inclined to serve a centre rather than regions

Auditor #9 wrote:

tonys wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

tonys wrote:

A general election is the only to change a Government, any democrat worth the name understands that and would not seek ways to sidestep it.

At the moment it is but shouldn't democracy itself evolve and adapt and get an upgrade, tonys?

They get to vote on their budgets in other parts of the world for example. Why can't we get a better democracy here ? Why why why ???

I see very little wrong with the one we have.

I see a lot wrong - I see this:
* the vast potential to buy elections
* disenfranchisement of the increasingly more educated and more interested from voting and expressing their responsibilities
* disenfranchisement of the less well-educated from learning about civic systems and responsibilities through having to vote a couple of times a year on a tax or law
* the current system is a resignation to the possibility that a power elite want to grab and keep power
* the current system without a mechanism for self-change is a resignation to the scenario where our society refuses to grow in quantity only not in quality
* the current system is hardly representative (I might vote for O'Dea though I wouldn't agree with all he says)
* the system as it is cannot easily be policy-focused and again has in built barriers to clear awareness of policy and planning
* the current set up is not truly democratic and is perhaps inclined to serve a centre rather than regions

You see a result you don't like and you want to change the rules of the game, the rest, in my opinion, is window dressing which would bring as many drawbacks as advances.

CF
What the polls are saying at the moment is that there are a lot of people pissed off at the government, that is not to say that in an election they would now vote differently then they did last time, it is not to say they have any more confidence in any of the alternatives on offer, it is not to say they want a general election right now and it very definitely is not to say that the electorate think it is undemocratic for the Government to continue in office.

The handy thing with this version of democracy tonys is that if enough people want it then the rules of the game can be changed. I believe this is long overdue and will be pushed for as time wears on and schools and universities keep churning out people who want to know why more people aren't participating in the democratic processes that are going on. Why indeed that models of business have mechanisms which work more democratically than democratic political institutions.

Do you deny that there is massive potential to abuse an electorate by buying elections? Don't forget : Radix Malorum Est Cupiditas and people are too easily wooed by the shiny stuff.

Healthy growth and Death go back to back. For this society like any other to grow and change there will have to be the Death of the old and a welcoming in of the new. Whether I like it or not is not the point - change will come like a force of nature.

It'd be interesting to hear what drawbacks you'd see in a more participatory, inclusive form of democracy emerging here.