Zhou_Enlai wrote:

Are we talking about the board of Anglo or the board of CRH, or are we talking about union leaders or shop owners?

I would wager that the average Bank Executive would not have the skills necessary to run a shop.

Ah you changed the poll coc. TNI/ MRBS / RedSea were here the other day looking for a few lads who could make up good objective polls so who knows? anyone who's got the gift may get their ideal job.

Polls are hard though and I'd be interested in hearing from others how they'd have phrased this one.... Myself I'd have asked the questions of how to decide how much these lads should get .... Should politicians be paid by Referendum or some kind of vote like that, or by a % of GDP and similarly for business leaders % of profits or something.

One of the assumptions in the poll is that leaders may be worth paying for at all ... What if your leader is the Pied Piper

Be interested if anyone else would have thoughts on how to frame those questions.

tonys wrote:

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

coc, my concerns were only over the choices presented in the original poll. I had no problem with the post which sparked the poll, and indeed I thought it was quite funny.

As a poll though, it wasn't usable because both choices meant the same thing in the end. That is all.

However now that it has been redrafted (by I know not who) I suggest we get on with it and vote. Unless there are further objections to the choices, in which case posters should state their objections.

And I will be the first to support your right to criticise the establishment ...

The “poll” as reconstituted is a pointless exercise, as originally constituted it was a ridiculous exercise. Improvement, but not as we like it , Jim.
Political discussion web sites are not representative of the general public, they are more often than not left leaning, anti-government in opinion.

A poll such as this will have a predictable result, but that said if you wish to talk to yourselves to reassure yourselves, who am I....

That's a very interesting blue assertion - could you give us a few examples of political left-wing websites ?

Back to the question at hand, politicians clearly are overpaid in Ireland. I haven't heard a convincing argument that ststes otherwise. However, its not the pay of the politicians, its the number of paid positions available to a TD that really bugs me - committee heads and junior ministers specifically. If TD's froze their pay and the number of junior ministers was trimmed a bit I'd be happy enough.

In business, well globally, on wall street etc the pay some of these guys get is obscene. Stan O'Neill, the old CEO at Merrill's who devised the strategy that led to the end of its existance as an independant company recieved 161mm dollars on leaving. Obscene money for someone who ultimately bears heavy reponsibility for loosing billions of shareholders dollars. Our old canteen assistant ultimately added more value to the firm than he did. He wasn't even the highest paid wall street exec. Again, this is hardly a relevation, Wall Street bonus'es have been in the spotlight for some time.

Ultimately I'm not sure anything can be done. These guys are very influential and naturally when things go well its usually seen as down to their visionary leadership. Personally I think that things like this are enevitable in a booming economy and will sort themselves out. Shareholders are not happy paying these bonuses in lean times like at present and exec's who ddon't take head of this face loosing their job. John Thain, O'Neill's replacement as head of Merrill paid 4 billion in bonuses to all staff members at ML over the christmas and lost his job for it - Im not sure how much he personally got but to be fair to Mr Thain he has a reputation for not taking excessive amounts and was in this instance motivated by a desire to reward ML staff one last time before the new year job losses.

Bonuses are part of the culture in financial services and to eliminate this expectation from that sectors workers is going to be difficult, probably impossible in fact. I was at a major Irish stock broker a few years ago when bonuses were not given one christmas. The sense of anger was amazing.

The high pay is attracting a lot of talented people though. This is purely a personal opinion but it seems to me that ambitious talented people are heading into finance instead of more genuinely productive areas of the economy such as engineering science or the arts. Perhaps its always been like that but I really don't think so. Now these areas just cannot compete - engineering, a discipline that is absolutely vital to the fuctioning of human society (even the Khymer Rouge didn't shoot their engineers!) will never pay as well as even a mediocre enough management position in finance.

Auditor #9 wrote:

tonys wrote:

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

coc, my concerns were only over the choices presented in the original poll. I had no problem with the post which sparked the poll, and indeed I thought it was quite funny.

As a poll though, it wasn't usable because both choices meant the same thing in the end. That is all.

However now that it has been redrafted (by I know not who) I suggest we get on with it and vote. Unless there are further objections to the choices, in which case posters should state their objections.

And I will be the first to support your right to criticise the establishment ...

The “poll” as reconstituted is a pointless exercise, as originally constituted it was a ridiculous exercise. Improvement, but not as we like it , Jim.
Political discussion web sites are not representative of the general public, they are more often than not left leaning, anti-government in opinion.

A poll such as this will have a predictable result, but that said if you wish to talk to yourselves to reassure yourselves, who am I....

That's a very interesting blue assertion - could you give us a few examples of political left-wing websites ?

You have me there, I can't think of one that isn't.

Redwatch, perhaps?

shutuplaura wrote:

Back to the question at hand, politicians clearly are overpaid in Ireland. I haven't heard a convincing argument that ststes otherwise. However, its not the pay of the politicians, its the number of paid positions available to a TD that really bugs me - committee heads and junior ministers specifically. If TD's froze their pay and the number of junior ministers was trimmed a bit I'd be happy enough.

In business, well globally, on wall street etc the pay some of these guys get is obscene. Stan O'Neill, the old CEO at Merrill's who devised the strategy that led to the end of its existance as an independant company recieved 161mm dollars on leaving. Obscene money for someone who ultimately bears heavy reponsibility for loosing billions of shareholders dollars. Our old canteen assistant ultimately added more value to the firm than he did. He wasn't even the highest paid wall street exec. Again, this is hardly a relevation, Wall Street bonus'es have been in the spotlight for some time.

Ultimately I'm not sure anything can be done. These guys are very influential and naturally when things go well its usually seen as down to their visionary leadership. Personally I think that things like this are enevitable in a booming economy and will sort themselves out. Shareholders are not happy paying these bonuses in lean times like at present and exec's who ddon't take head of this face loosing their job. John Thain, O'Neill's replacement as head of Merrill paid 4 billion in bonuses to all staff members at ML over the christmas and lost his job for it - Im not sure how much he personally got but to be fair to Mr Thain he has a reputation for not taking excessive amounts and was in this instance motivated by a desire to reward ML staff one last time before the new year job losses.

Bonuses are part of the culture in financial services and to eliminate this expectation from that sectors workers is going to be difficult, probably impossible in fact. I was at a major Irish stock broker a few years ago when bonuses were not given one christmas. The sense of anger was amazing.

The high pay is attracting a lot of talented people though. This is purely a personal opinion but it seems to me that ambitious talented people are heading into finance instead of more genuinely productive areas of the economy such as engineering science or the arts. Perhaps its always been like that but I really don't think so. Now these areas just cannot compete - engineering, a discipline that is absolutely vital to the fuctioning of human society (even the Khymer Rouge didn't shoot their engineers!) will never pay as well as even a mediocre enough management position in finance.

If you want to hear what one American thinks about Thain click this if you're not concerned about ***LOUD AND VERY VERY EXPLICIT AND ABUSIVE LANGUAGE***
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoEbMrZ5uaA

Do higher wages only attract the best salespeople?

shutuplaura wrote:

Back to the question at hand, politicians clearly are overpaid in Ireland. I haven't heard a convincing argument that ststes otherwise. However, its not the pay of the politicians, its the number of paid positions available to a TD that really bugs me - committee heads and junior ministers specifically. If TD's froze their pay and the number of junior ministers was trimmed a bit I'd be happy enough.

In business, well globally, on wall street etc the pay some of these guys get is obscene. Stan O'Neill, the old CEO at Merrill's who devised the strategy that led to the end of its existance as an independant company recieved 161mm dollars on leaving. Obscene money for someone who ultimately bears heavy reponsibility for loosing billions of shareholders dollars. Our old canteen assistant ultimately added more value to the firm than he did. He wasn't even the highest paid wall street exec. Again, this is hardly a relevation, Wall Street bonus'es have been in the spotlight for some time.

Ultimately I'm not sure anything can be done. These guys are very influential and naturally when things go well its usually seen as down to their visionary leadership. Personally I think that things like this are enevitable in a booming economy and will sort themselves out. Shareholders are not happy paying these bonuses in lean times like at present and exec's who ddon't take head of this face loosing their job. John Thain, O'Neill's replacement as head of Merrill paid 4 billion in bonuses to all staff members at ML over the christmas and lost his job for it - Im not sure how much he personally got but to be fair to Mr Thain he has a reputation for not taking excessive amounts and was in this instance motivated by a desire to reward ML staff one last time before the new year job losses.

Bonuses are part of the culture in financial services and to eliminate this expectation from that sectors workers is going to be difficult, probably impossible in fact. I was at a major Irish stock broker a few years ago when bonuses were not given one christmas. The sense of anger was amazing.

The high pay is attracting a lot of talented people though. This is purely a personal opinion but it seems to me that ambitious talented people are heading into finance instead of more genuinely productive areas of the economy such as engineering science or the arts. Perhaps its always been like that but I really don't think so. Now these areas just cannot compete - engineering, a discipline that is absolutely vital to the fuctioning of human society (even the Khymer Rouge didn't shoot their engineers!) will never pay as well as even a mediocre enough management position in finance.

Good post - Im more and more coming to the conclusion that this incestous oligarchy of the financial and legal professions has a dangerous stranglehold over our societies in the Anglophone West - something which needs to be broken.

Would recommend reading "Wealth and Democracy: a Political History of the American Rich" by Kevin Phillips - primarily written about the late 19th century American Capitalism that reached its apogee in the 1929 Wall Street Crash - but seeing as we have come full circle since then - it is scarily relevant to the situation we find ourselves in today.

Will come back to this again.

johnfás wrote:

Redwatch, perhaps?

Stormfront's?

evercloserunion says there is a leftwing one called revleft.

Most are mixed.

Auditor #9 wrote:

If you want to hear what one American thinks about Thain click this if you're not concerned about ***LOUD AND VERY VERY EXPLICIT AND ABUSIVE LANGUAGE***
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoEbMrZ5uaA

Do higher wages only attract the best salespeople?

That guy is mental, great stuff. Can't believe he took a hit at the end there.

Yes, Mr. Thains actions, though I personally benefitted from it was an extreme act of taking the piss. He's lost his job and Ken Lewis, the CEO of BofA (the guy who talked the board of BofA around to the idea of taking ML over) is having his judgement questioned at a very fundamental level and will quite possibly also loose his job. I'm not sure but I'm guessing ML recieved government money. If so 4bill of that has flowed through the company and directly into the pockets of people who by and large don't need it. Such a gross misuse of public money!

Don't knock salespeople themselves. Most good salespeople are articulate, intelligent and adaptable; qualities that are easily transferable to more socially productive tasks.

The Bankers Apologise

Just today the well-paid bankers of HBOS were hauled in before a committee of MPs and they were made to apologise for making a balls of so many deals that led to massive bailouts by the UK nation.

Sky News - 6 mins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZVtOqSpHsY

This isn't really happening here though - Shane Ross nearly twisted himself inside out in an attempt to get straight answers from the Anglo Rep. the other day in the committee.

This is happening in America too - plus there is documented evidence of abuse of bailout money by Citicorp execs who flew to Baha and spent 12k a night on accomodation. Who the fuck do they think they are, these pricks.

Anyone know who the old boys were on Vincent Brown tonight ? They seemed seriously shook. There seem to be a few economists around now who are dropping the pretence, and who just look stunned.

No idea, they upload the videos the next day though, don't they?

Can you watch Vincent Brown on the internet? I've been impoverishing myself without him...

I think they put snippets online. They obviously don't stream... it is TV3...

Auditor #9 wrote:

The Bankers Apologise

Just today the well-paid bankers of HBOS were hauled in before a committee of MPs and they were made to apologise for making a balls of so many deals that led to massive bailouts by the UK nation.

Sky News - 6 mins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZVtOqSpHsY

This isn't really happening here though - Shane Ross nearly twisted himself inside out in an attempt to get straight answers from the Anglo Rep. the other day in the committee.


This is happening in America too - plus there is documented evidence of abuse of bailout money by Citicorp execs who flew to Baha and spent 12k a night on accomodation. Who the fuck do they think they are, these pricks.

Wasn't the there bonus paid to the staff of BoI recently? Have they recieved government money yet? If they have it seems criminal, if not irrsponsible at best.