I agree the carbon credits are stupid. Why rather than pay them abroad, can't we hypothecate the money towards renewables/energy efficiency here??

Did the influx of freshwater 8,200 years ago from large lakes in what is now northern Canada help trigger the coldest climate event in the Earth's climate system in the past 10,000 years? That such a cold event occurred is well documented by Baldini (2002) and others, including Von Grafenstein (1998), whose data in the figure to the left shows snow accumulation and isotopically inferred temperature records from the Greenland GISP2 ice core and fossil shells in the sediments of Lake Ammersee, southern Germany. One theory put forth by Barber, et. al.(1999) as to what triggered this 400 year period of cooling is that two gigantic glacial lakes in Canada's Hudson Bay region some 8,200 years ago broke open when an ice dam from a remnant of the Laurentide Ice Sheet collapsed. The flow of lake water rushing through the Hudson Strait and into the Labrador Sea is estimated to be about 15 times greater than the current discharge of the Amazon River. Also see Abrupt Climate Change.

Cactus.You have less of a grasp than even A-T. that bolsters my argument not yours.

expat girl wrote:

I agree the carbon credits are stupid. Why rather than pay them abroad, can't we hypothecate the money towards renewables/energy efficiency here??

Because Government, like youngdan, had their heads stuck in the sand and did nothing to reduce emissions.

youngdan - I'm not having an argument with you. I'm trying to find out what is, and what is not, happening.

Because it is not about the emissions Expat. we can emit but we must pay the cash.

It is all about the billions.

Ireland starves and the Poles get the jobs and 50 million. You think it would be used for a windfarm in Mayo?. well think again, what part of global do you not understand

What is happening Cactus is you are getting the shaft

cactus flower wrote:

Did the influx of freshwater 8,200 years ago from large lakes in what is now northern Canada help trigger the coldest climate event in the Earth's climate system in the past 10,000 years? That such a cold event occurred is well documented by Baldini (2002) and others, including Von Grafenstein (1998), whose data in the figure to the left shows snow accumulation and isotopically inferred temperature records from the Greenland GISP2 ice core and fossil shells in the sediments of Lake Ammersee, southern Germany. One theory put forth by Barber, et. al.(1999) as to what triggered this 400 year period of cooling is that two gigantic glacial lakes in Canada's Hudson Bay region some 8,200 years ago broke open when an ice dam from a remnant of the Laurentide Ice Sheet collapsed. The flow of lake water rushing through the Hudson Strait and into the Labrador Sea is estimated to be about 15 times greater than the current discharge of the Amazon River. Also see Abrupt Climate Change.

Negative feedback loops are a potential result of global warming, as well as positive. Abrupt cooling (caused, say by Gulf stream or other thermohaline circulation collapse or a vast volcanic event) is our worst nightmare if combined with a diminution in the fuel available to us. The almost complete lack of sunspots since last summer is a new one on many scientists; the effects of this will take a while to filter through the literature. Because climate is calculated from 10 year and upwards rolling averages, even a very cold winter will take a while to make a difference to the figures. It is something to keep an eye on, nonetheless. As scientists, if the data changes, we need to change our minds. This winter may just be weather, not climate. I hope so.

We are a growing global population and our reserves of natural resources are dwindling. There are already consequences. There will be more. Abrupt cooling would have a worse effect on food supplies than warming

I think we need to find out what the carbon credits money is going towards before we condemn it entirely. Does anyone know

You have just given 50 million euro to Poland and your concern is what the Poles are going to use it for. They are going to spend it on the Poles or maybe they will give it to Mugabi

expat girl wrote:

I agree the carbon credits are stupid. Why rather than pay them abroad, can't we hypothecate the money towards renewables/energy efficiency here??

We could, if we were bothered to do so.

Quote :

I think we need to find out what the carbon credits money is going towards before we condemn it entirely. Does anyone know

In the case of the credits Ireland is buying, they're generated by emissions reductions in various Eastern European countries. As you say, these could be done in Ireland, but it's cheaper to do them in Eastern Europe.

The 50 million is going to Poland. So pay up. Remember, no whinging because it is not a fine.

know how much dell are getting from the polish govt to relocate in poland? a lot less than 50m, so our carbon credits are paying for irish redundancies. nice one!

and kyoto is a pile of crap as it stunts development in developing countries.

poland had dirty heavy industry in 1980s so they get rewarded now. and ireland had feck all industry in 1980s and now get hammered because our economy has developed somewhat. time to open the nuclear reactors and open cast mines becuase chances are in 20 years time we'll be rewarded for it.

why can't all those graphs just have temperatures in celcius. why are they all "change in temp" etc. my limited understanding of graphs leads me to wonder if the "change" in temp produces a more dramatic graph than just the temp.

expat girl wrote:

I think we need to find out what the carbon credits money is going towards before we condemn it entirely. Does anyone know

There's enough evidence to suggest they're not the way to go. In fact they could be pushing us in the opposite direction.

see

http://www.thecornerhouse.org.uk/
http://www.thecornerhouse.org.uk/subject/climate/

Carbon Trading, Climate Justice and the Production of Ignorance
http://www.thecornerhouse.org.uk/summary.shtml?x=561681

Quote :

by Larry Lohmann

article | published August 2008 | summary | PDF

Carbon trading programmes such as the European Union Emissions Trading Scheme and the Kyoto Protocol have helped mobilize neoclassical economics and development planning in new projects of dispossession, speculation, rent-seeking and the redistribution of wealth from poor to rich and from the future to the present. Part of this process is the creation of ignorance, argues this article published in the journal Development.

Climate Markets Six Soundbites
http://www.thecornerhouse.org.uk/summary.shtml?x=563127

Quote :

by Larry Lohmann

article | published August 2008 | summary | PDF

Will current plans to expand carbon trading in the US and elsewhere work? No. Carbon trading is aimed at the wrong objective, squanders resources on the wrong things, requires knowledge and institutions that do not exist, is antidemocratic, interferes with positive solutions, and puts ideology above experience.

and

http://climateandcapitalism.com/

Offsets Under Kyoto: A Dirty Deal for the South

By Kevin Smith
Transnational Institute
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=602

Quote :

Despite driving poor communities off their land and patently failing to deliver carbon emissions reductions, lobbyists for big industries and institutions such as the World Bank were active in Poznan climate negotiations pushing for further deregulation and expansion of the market-based Clean Development Mechanism.

In Western Panama, the Naso and Ngobe peoples are fighting against the construction of four hydroelectric dams being built on the land of Indigenous Peoples, saying that they will destroy their homelands.

In Okhla, India, members of the local community have been turning up in large numbers to protest against the construction of a waste incinerator in a residential area.

Across Indonesia, small farmers are being driven from their land to expand palm oil plantations, with the palm oil finding its way to the refinery in Riau owned by PT Murini Samsam.

All of these projects are receiving, or are in the process of being approved for carbon financing through the Clean Development Mechanism (CDM). This controversial and increasingly discredited finance mechanism, which enables countries and companies in the Global North to buy offset credits from projects in the Global South, has become an emblem of the wider climate injustice being exacerbated by the Kyoto Process.

There is a widespread crisis of confidence in the
CDM. All but the most dogmatically market oriented NGOs are no longer
willing to entertain it as being any part of the solution....

for how successful it has been.

It's very much like buying some modern indulgences for your old climate sins.

You buy yourself a clean conscience by paying someone else to undo the harm you are causing.
All the time realising that the carbon saved is not verifiable and that you can't prove they wouldn't have happened anyway.

Unless you're buying them from an omniscient being of course, which would make sense with yer indulgences...

Likewise, offsets are being used as an excuse for the unsustainable growth of carbon-intensive activities (aviation emissions are a good example of this).

Do pigs fart?

zakalwe wrote:

know how much dell are getting from the polish govt to relocate in poland? a lot less than 50m, so our carbon credits are paying for irish redundancies. nice one!

and kyoto is a pile of crap as it stunts development in developing countries.

poland had dirty heavy industry in 1980s so they get rewarded now. and ireland had feck all industry in 1980s and now get hammered because our economy has developed somewhat. time to open the nuclear reactors and open cast mines becuase chances are in 20 years time we'll be rewarded for it.

why can't all those graphs just have temperatures in celcius. why are they all "change in temp" etc. my limited understanding of graphs leads me to wonder if the "change" in temp produces a more dramatic graph than just the temp.

I understand your frustration. I find a lot of so-called "green" politics bollocks.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D95MFJ500&show_article=1

The cold will be here in 2 days as it is in the midwest now. Records being broken everywhere. It is 40 degrees below but it might have eased a bit by the time it gets East. I would say that minus 25 was as cold as I've felt. I will be in great form unless I get frostbite

Dan, yer going to have to be patient. It will be next autumn at least before this winter appears on the graphs. Then, we'll have to see how much of a dip there is in comparison to the rest of the planet. and in comparison to the last 10 years.

Is it not cold in Ireland as well.

This January will be the coldest in years if this continues

The weather's gone back to roughly normal, it was 5.5 degrees Celsius in South Dublin around 8am this morning

Last year was the tenth warmest year "on record", but youngdan doesn't seem to want to think about that.

Give it a break, you are like a broken record. It was the coldest in this millinium

youngdan wrote:

Give it a break, you are like a broken record. It was the coldest in this millinium

cactus flower wrote:

youngdan wrote:

Give it a break, you are like a broken record. It was the coldest in this millinium

Accuracy and spelling are two of youngdan's weak spots, caucus. He doesn't seem to grasp the elementary difference between trends and individual statistics.

Only a donkey like yourself would talk about "individual statistics". Mathematics is not your field of study it appears.

Lads ye're at it again. Don't ye know that this thread is about to run out soon and a great Weather Thread it was. Records are kept here of a sunny spring, a sucky summer and a mixed winter but I'm sure there was plenty of rain there too.

Don't mar it men, the end is coming soon for this thread. It's going to go the way of the ISEQ. The ISEQ thread.