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| BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza | |
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Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:23 pm | |
| What if? They say themselves it was planned in advance. It was not a what if it was a definite. And please let''s not make this about tv schedules, nearly 400 children were killed nearly 1,500 adults and the whole civil infrastructure wrecked. The Israelis used the most horrific new weapons, including tungsten bombs that sliced people in pieces. The doctors and the UN are saying as well as phosphorus bombs people have had the most ghastly fatal internal injuries from tiny wounds, never seen anything like it before. They are checking for the depleted uranium, but as that was used in the Lebanon, I''m not holding my breath. The whole thing has been used as a massive act of terror and an experiment ground. Mengele would be proud.
The coverage is an interesting issue, but a side issue. I am sure they are very balanced. I look forward to the BBC's commemoration of the history of the Irgun, the Palestinians being driven out of their land, the six day war, the massacre at Sabra and Shattila and all the rest. I''m sure they'll be on next week. I look forward to the excellent BBC documentary that I''m sure is being prepared on the War Crimes Tribunal into what is happening in Gaza. |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:19 pm | |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:39 pm | |
| Speeches from yesterday's protest at the BBC in Portland Place in London - police say approx 5,000 turned out. The BBC have revised their initial estimates of 200 up to 2,000: http://uk.youtube.com/user/adycousins |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:46 pm | |
| - cactus flower wrote:
- The BBC website too is carrying this in several pages:
I worked for the BBC for a number of years. There were some honest individuals but by and large the culture was largely unconciously and routinely racist, colonial-minded and unquestioning of the actions of the powerful.
I worked at BBC television in London for two years, finishing last year to move on to something a bit better paid I did not encounter any form of racism, whether institutional or otherwise. The nearest I got to the place being colonial minded was the large amounts of Aussies, Kiwis and Irish working there. As to questioning the actions of the powerful, most people I worked with were pretty much dyed-in-the-wool Guardian reading lefties. So for me at least your analogy doesn't at all ring true. |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:20 pm | |
| - Crusty Burke wrote:
- cactus flower wrote:
- The BBC website too is carrying this in several pages:
I worked for the BBC for a number of years. There were some honest individuals but by and large the culture was largely unconciously and routinely racist, colonial-minded and unquestioning of the actions of the powerful.
I worked at BBC television in London for two years, finishing last year to move on to something a bit better paid I did not encounter any form of racism, whether institutional or otherwise. The nearest I got to the place being colonial minded was the large amounts of Aussies, Kiwis and Irish working there. As to questioning the actions of the powerful, most people I worked with were pretty much dyed-in-the-wool Guardian reading lefties. So for me at least your analogy doesn't at all ring true. Well, its my own experience and its anecdotal and subjective, so I don't expect it to be taken as some kind of gospel. It was also a few years ago, and its possible that the culture and outlook has changed. From watching some recent news coverage, somehow I doubt it. There was a scattering of people from outside England, but most news producers and journalists had Oxbridge or similar backgrounds and an unconscious attitude of superiority. When I said that attitudes were colonial, I meant with respect to coverage of former colonial countries, like Palestine, and attitudes to their inhabitants. There was a tendency to want to portray anyone of brown skin colour as either a victim (by the Guardian readers) or a terrorist bastard or funny/comic ( by the Times readers). But there you go, you had a different experience. |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:06 pm | |
| This might put Thomson's behaviour in context - it's an article from 2005: BBC chief holds peace talks in Jerusalem with Ariel Sharon By Guy Adams Tuesday, 29 November 2005 The BBC is often accused of an anti-Israeli bias in its coverage of the Middle East, and recently censured reporter Barbara Plett for saying she "started to cry" when Yasser Arafat left Palestine shortly before his death. Fascinating, then, to learn that its director general, Mark Thompson, has recently returned from Jerusalem, where he held a face-to-face meeting with the hardine Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Although the diplomatic visit was not publicised on these shores, it has been seized upon in Israel as evidence that Thompson, who took office in 2004, intends to build bridges with the country's political class. Sources at the Beeb also suspect that it heralds a "softening" to the corporation's unofficial editorial line on the Middle East. "This was the first visit of its kind by any serving director general, so it's clearly a significant development," I'm told. "Not many people know this, but Mark is actually a deeply religious man. He's a Catholic, but his wife is Jewish, and he has a far greater regard for the Israeli cause than some of his predecessors." Understandably, an official BBC spokesman was anxious to downplay talk of an exclusively pro-Israeli charm offensive. Apopros this month's previously undocumented trip, he stressed that Thompson had also held talks with the Palestinian leader, Mahmoud Abbas. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/pandora/bbc-chief-holds-peace-talks-in-jerusalem-with-ariel-sharon-517400.html |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:35 pm | |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:47 pm | |
| - cactus flower wrote:
- What if? They say themselves it was planned in advance. It was not a what if it was a definite.
How many times must this have to be explained in advance before you get it? Of course it was planned in advance. Nobody ever attacks somewhere without a plan. Israel has on its books plans to attack Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, and even Jordan and Egypt, who it has close relations with. Every country on earth makes plans for all eventualities. But 99% of plans are never used. Because something is planned in advance does not mean it is going to be used. It means if they need to react they have a plan ready for what to do, where to hit, who to kill, and how many troops are needed. The decision to activate the plan was taken shortly before it was started. That is a fact. In fact the Israeli cabinet was split on the issue and Omert wasn't sure it would get the go ahead. Once Hamas decided not to renew the ceasefire the Israeli military, as is their job, updated the plan in case the politicians decided to go down that route. That is what they are there for. With respect, Cactus, it sounds as though you don't have a clue how governments and administrations work. BTW Obama may have a plan to withdraw from Iraq, but he will also have a plan to reinvade if necessary. That is his job. It is what he is paid for. - Quote :
And please let''s not make this about tv schedules, nearly 400 children were killed nearly 1,500 adults and the whole civil infrastructure wrecked. The Israelis used the most horrific new weapons, including tungsten bombs that sliced people in pieces. The doctors and the UN are saying as well as phosphorus bombs people have had the most ghastly fatal internal injuries from tiny wounds, never seen anything like it before. There is clear evidence of the use of White Phosphorus, etc being used by Israel. That in my view, and in the view of many lawyers, is a war crime and once the evidence is validated those who authorised their use should be brought to The Hague on war crimes charges. And if their use was authorised by Omert that means him. The use of things like White Phosphorus and other chemicals is abhorrent and those responsible must face full legal prosecution under international law. Hamas also has carried out actions according to the UN that may qualify as war crimes. If that is verified those too in the Hamas leadership responsible must face full prosecution for war crimes. War crimes are war crimes no matter who does them. |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:24 pm | |
| - Papal Knight wrote:
- cactus flower wrote:
- What if? They say themselves it was planned in advance. It was not a what if it was a definite.
How many times must this have to be explained in advance before you get it? Of course it was planned in advance. Nobody ever attacks somewhere without a plan. Israel has on its books plans to attack Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, and even Jordan and Egypt, who it has close relations with. Every country on earth makes plans for all eventualities. But 99% of plans are never used. Because something is planned in advance does not mean it is going to be used. It means if they need to react they have a plan ready for what to do, where to hit, who to kill, and how many troops are needed. The decision to activate the plan was taken shortly before it was started. That is a fact. In fact the Israeli cabinet was split on the issue and Omert wasn't sure it would get the go ahead. Once Hamas decided not to renew the ceasefire the Israeli military, as is their job, updated the plan in case the politicians decided to go down that route. That is what they are there for. With respect, Cactus, it sounds as though you don't have a clue how governments and administrations work. BTW Obama may have a plan to withdraw from Iraq, but he will also have a plan to reinvade if necessary. That is his job. It is what he is paid for.
- Quote :
And please let''s not make this about tv schedules, nearly 400 children were killed nearly 1,500 adults and the whole civil infrastructure wrecked. The Israelis used the most horrific new weapons, including tungsten bombs that sliced people in pieces. The doctors and the UN are saying as well as phosphorus bombs people have had the most ghastly fatal internal injuries from tiny wounds, never seen anything like it before. There is clear evidence of the use of White Phosphorus, etc being used by Israel. That in my view, and in the view of many lawyers, is a war crime and once the evidence is validated those who authorised their use should be brought to The Hague on war crimes charges. And if their use was authorised by Omert that means him. The use of things like White Phosphorus and other chemicals is abhorrent and those responsible must face full legal prosecution under international law. Hamas also has carried out actions according to the UN that may qualify as war crimes. If that is verified those too in the Hamas leadership responsible must face full prosecution for war crimes. War crimes are war crimes no matter who does them. I get your point totally Papal Knight, but it flies in the face of reality in this particular case. The Israeli Government was very careful to ensure that the first bombardment of Gaza came as a total surprise to Hamas, and they worked carefully with the Eygyptian Government to achieve that. Any appearance of divisions and splits in the Israeli Cabinet was diversionary. Hamas fully believed up to the time the first bombs fell that Eygypt was acting as a mediator with Israel in seeking to extend the cease fire. Hamas actually relaxed their precautions in the days immediately before the bombing. That is how the Israeli airforce was able to bomb the "passing out parades" of hundreds of newly trained police, killing a large number of them. I posted on that here about two days into the assault. This was reminiscent of the bombing without warning of the South Ossetian capital only hours after the Georgian President Saakashvili went on the radio declaring a cease fire and peace initiative. I know that you have experience and knowledge of the pragmatic, behing the scenes workings and manoeverings of government, but this was a military, not a diplomatic move. In the military, the creation of diversion and disinformation is the name of the game. War crimes are war crimes and should be prosecuted. With 13 Israelis (3 of whom were civilians) and over 1,300 Gazans having died, its to be hoped that there will be proportionality and fairness in the application of the law. |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:31 am | |
| Don't forget that Hezbollah are apparently re-arming themselves in Lebanon and are spoiling for a rematch of the 2006 war. I reckon the Israeli government had one eye on the upcoming election and another on their northern borders. However the war with Hamas was and is a failure for Israel on the following fronts: 1: Likud are almost certain to get back into power at the next election. 2: Unsurprisingly support for Hamas has strengthened in Gaza in the aftermath of the war. Hamas (and Hezbollah) deliberately put civilians in the firing line knowing well that Israel will shoot anyway. A dead child in Gaza is worth far more to Hamas as a propaganda weapon than any number of dead Israeli soldiers. And on the propaganda front Hamas have unquestionably won. 3: Israel are not signatories of the convention that established the War Crimes tribunal in the Hague, however it is almost certain that individuals will be prosecuted, as the UN are fuming over the destruction of their schools. |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:34 am | |
| - cactus flower wrote:
- I get your point totally Papal Knight, but it flies in the face of reality in this particular case. The Israeli Government was very careful to ensure that the first bombardment of Gaza came as a total surprise to Hamas, and they worked carefully with the Eygyptian Government to achieve that.
Diversionary tactics are perfectly normal parts of planning attacks, Cactus. They are standard warfare. Everyone does it. Michael Collins did it in the War of Independence. The ANC did it. The PLO did. - Quote :
- Any appearance of divisions and splits in the Israeli Cabinet was diversionary.
Anything but. Omert is right now even weaker and more discredited than Brian Cowen. The leader of Kadima,Tzipi Livni, and a number of ministers were anything but happy and doubted Omert's strategy. Publicly Livni supported the decision. Privately she was anything but. Nor was the Defence Minister. - Quote :
- Hamas fully believed up to the time the first bombs fell that Eygypt was acting as a mediator with Israel in seeking to extend the cease fire. Hamas actually relaxed their precautions in the days immediately before the bombing.
Ah come on, now. Who do you think Hamas are? The Legion of Mary? That is quite frankly bullshit. Hamas, the UN in Gaza have testified, is a brutal organisation that has committed mass murder repeatedly. When it defeated Fatah the UN reported that it threw Fatah members to their deaths from high rise buildings. No-one military organisation ever relaxes their precautions until a truce is signed, sealed and delivered. Even the Legion of Mary wouldn't be that dumb. Both the Israelis and Hamas pumped out lie after lie during the conflict, with each pretending how they were the poor victims those nasty Israelis/Hamas people. Israel talked about how "thousands of rockets" were fired at it during the ceasefire, a total lie. Thousand had been fired before the ceasefire, but only 300 were fired during the ceasefire, mainly to unoccupied locations to try to get the Israelis to open the borders, as Hamas said Israel had agreed to and Israel said they hadn't. (That's what happens when you don't write down the agreement so everyone knows what you are committing to.) Hamas claimed how they were just going down the normal governmental route and had let down their guard when far from that they had increased security and begin murdering opponents again. - Quote :
- That is how the Israeli airforce was able to bomb the "passing out parades" of hundreds of newly trained police, killing a large number of them. I posted on that here about two days into the assault.
That attack was a disgrace and I regard it as a war crime. But to claim that that is because Hamas let their guard down is naive, Cactus. Hamas concluded, logically, that traffic wardens and traffic cops would not be attacked by Israel. Israel's attack on them was an outrage. |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:37 am | |
| - Crusty Burke wrote:
- Don't forget that Hezbollah are apparently re-arming themselves in Lebanon and are spoiling for a rematch of the 2006 war. I reckon the Israeli government had one eye on the upcoming election and another on their northern borders.
However the war with Hamas was and is a failure for Israel on the following fronts: 1: Likud are almost certain to get back into power at the next election. 2: Unsurprisingly support for Hamas has strengthened in Gaza in the aftermath of the war. Hamas (and Hezbollah) deliberately put civilians in the firing line knowing well that Israel will shoot anyway. A dead child in Gaza is worth far more to Hamas as a propaganda weapon than any number of dead Israeli soldiers. And on the propaganda front Hamas have unquestionably won. 3: Israel are not signatories of the convention that established the War Crimes tribunal in the Hague, however it is almost certain that individuals will be prosecuted, as the UN are fuming over the destruction of their schools. I agree with all you said. The attack on Gaza will only backfire on Israel. And yes Israel is not a signatory to the convention, but individuals can be prosecuted. Those responsible will find, for example, that it will be difficult to travel internationally for fear of arrest unless they travel on diplomatic passports and even there they may not be able to use diplomatic immunity to evade any war crimes prosecution. |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:08 am | |
| Papal Knight said - Quote :
- Hamas fully believed up to the time the first bombs fell that Eygypt was acting as a mediator with Israel in seeking to extend the cease fire. Hamas actually relaxed their precautions in the days immediately before the bombing.
- Quote :
- Ah come on, now. Who do you think Hamas are? The Legion of Mary? That is quite frankly bullshit. Hamas, the UN in Gaza have testified, is a brutal organisation that has committed mass murder repeatedly. When it defeated Fatah the UN reported that it threw Fatah members to their deaths from high rise buildings.
I haven't time right now to look out my sources, that were previously linked here, but I will do so. What has Hamas's actions in fighting with Fatah got to do with the events we're discussing? Nobody said they were saints. They are, nevertheless the elected government. - Quote :
- No-one military organisation ever relaxes their precautions until a truce is signed, sealed and delivered. Even the Legion of Mary wouldn't be that dumb.
They were at the end of a 6 month truce, which they expected would be extended. - Quote :
- That is how the Israeli airforce was able to bomb the "passing out parades" of hundreds of newly trained police, killing a large number of them. I posted on that here about two days into the assault.
That attack was a disgrace and I regard it as a war crime. - Quote :
- But to claim that that is because Hamas let their guard down is naive, Cactus. Hamas concluded, logically, that traffic wardens and traffic cops would not be attacked by Israel. Israel's attack on them was an outrage.
We agree that it was an outrage, but there were a number of contemporary reports from different sources that police had been mainly confined to barracks until just before the attack, when there was a relaxation of security. I think you are way off the mark if you think anyone in Gaza would be surprised at the police being targetted. The Israeli army has shot hundreds of children and has shot unarmed peace activists since 2000. They consider any male between 15 and 50 a terrorist. Military attacks like this one are not initiated on the spur of the moment. Your suggestion that it was a last minute decision is contradicted by Israeli sources as well as by the timing and detailed preparation of the attack. |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:32 pm | |
| - cactus flower wrote:
- I get your point totally Papal Knight, but it flies in the face of reality in this particular case. The Israeli Government was very careful to ensure that the first bombardment of Gaza came as a total surprise to Hamas, and they worked carefully with the Eygyptian Government to achieve that. Any appearance of divisions and splits in the Israeli Cabinet was diversionary. Hamas fully believed up to the time the first bombs fell that Eygypt was acting as a mediator with Israel in seeking to extend the cease fire. Hamas actually relaxed their precautions in the days immediately before the bombing.
That is how the Israeli airforce was able to bomb the "passing out parades" of hundreds of newly trained police, killing a large number of them. I posted on that here about two days into the assault. What about this: - Quote :
Following the Hamas declaration that its six-month ceasefire was over, Israeli officials warned yesterday that a major military offensive in Gaza will be unavoidable if rocket fire into Israel continues. Irish Times - Israel warns of reaction if Palestinian rocket fire persists The report also says that Hamas members have gone underground in anticiaption of an attack, and abandoned many of their buildings. Regardless of whether you fully trust the report o not, it flies in the face of your suggestion that the attack was a complete secret. |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:41 pm | |
| - Crusty Burke wrote:
- 1: Likud are almost certain to get back into power at the next election.
Brave guess but not certain. Kadima's chances have improved with the war, which as far as I know is regarded as a success in Israel. - Crusty Burke wrote:
- 2: Unsurprisingly support for Hamas has strengthened in Gaza in the aftermath of the war. Hamas (and Hezbollah) deliberately put civilians in the firing line knowing well that Israel will shoot anyway. A dead child in Gaza is worth far more to Hamas as a propaganda weapon than any number of dead Israeli soldiers. And on the propaganda front Hamas have unquestionably won.
Support probably has gone up, but to say that Hamas and Hizbollah deliberately put civilians in harm's way is as useful as saying the Israelis deliberately targeted civilians. Let the authorities decide, rather than playing judge and jury. There's enough of that already. Of course, you're entitled to your opinion. On the propaganda front, the existence of this thread (and plenty more like it) complaining about a one-sided propaganda war should be enough to illustrate that Hamas' propaganda coup is hardly a settled matter. - Crusty Burke wrote:
- 3: Israel are not signatories of the convention that established the War Crimes tribunal in the Hague, however it is almost certain that individuals will be prosecuted, as the UN are fuming over the destruction of their schools.
The UN lost four people in Lebanon but there were no prosecutions there as far as I can remember. |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:48 pm | |
| - Crusty Burke wrote:
2: Unsurprisingly support for Hamas has strengthened in Gaza in the aftermath of the war. Hamas (and Hezbollah) deliberately put civilians in the firing line knowing well that Israel will shoot anyway. A dead child in Gaza is worth far more to Hamas as a propaganda weapon than any number of dead Israeli soldiers. And on the propaganda front Hamas have unquestionably won. I don't think it's fair to say that. I mean we are talking about guerrilla warfare here. The IRA did not conveniently stand in the middle of the local GAA ground to 'save' West Belfast Catholics, so I don't see why Hamas fighters would in such a built up area as Gaza. |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:00 pm | |
| - 905 wrote:
- cactus flower wrote:
- I get your point totally Papal Knight, but it flies in the face of reality in this particular case. The Israeli Government was very careful to ensure that the first bombardment of Gaza came as a total surprise to Hamas, and they worked carefully with the Eygyptian Government to achieve that. Any appearance of divisions and splits in the Israeli Cabinet was diversionary. Hamas fully believed up to the time the first bombs fell that Eygypt was acting as a mediator with Israel in seeking to extend the cease fire. Hamas actually relaxed their precautions in the days immediately before the bombing.That is how the Israeli airforce was able to bomb the "passing out parades" of hundreds of newly trained police, killing a large number of them. I posted on that here about two days into the assault.
What about this: - Quote :
Following the Hamas declaration that its six-month ceasefire was over, Israeli officials warned yesterday that a major military offensive in Gaza will be unavoidable if rocket fire into Israel continues. Irish Times - Israel warns of reaction if Palestinian rocket fire persists The report also says that Hamas members have gone underground in anticiaption of an attack, and abandoned many of their buildings. Regardless of whether you fully trust the report o not, it flies in the face of your suggestion that the attack was a complete secret. No it doesn't 905. Firsly I didn't say it was a secret, I said that Israel worked carefully with Eygypt to make Hamas relax its guard. Your report is dated 20 December. By the 27th, it was reported that Hamas were back on the streets for the "passing out" parades of the new police recruits. Could this be the reason why? - Quote :
- Egypt accused of 'deceiving' Hamas
London-based newspaper quotes sources who say Egyptian intelligence minister deliberately misled Palestinian organization about IDF intentions; Hamas sources say this is why movement's compounds were not evacuated Roee Nahmias Published: 12.28.08, 09:11 / Israel News
Egypt "collaborated" with Israel in its Gaza attack and lulled Hamas into thinking the Israel Defense Forces would not attack Gaza, the London-based Arabic-language newspaper al-Quds al-Arabi reported Sunday. The report, based on Arab diplomatic sources, claims that Egyptian Intelligence Minister Omar Suleiman told a number of Arab leaders that Israel was intending to attack the Gaza Strip in a limited manner in order to pressure the Palestinian organization into agreeing to a renewed ceasefire. According to the paper, Hamas was given a different message.
The sources quoted in the article asserted that Suleiman had told Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, during her Thursday visit to Cairo, that it was important to avoid civilian casualties during an military operation in Gaza, in order to avoid inciting the Arab public. Hamas sources close to former Palestinian Foreign Minister Mahmoud al-Zahar told the paper that Egypt told Hamas on Friday evening that Israel had agreed to begin negotiations about a potential ceasefire and would not attack Gaza before Cairo had attempted to settle the issue.
These sources noted that, in general, Hamas' internal ministry orders the evacuation of its security compounds following any Israeli threat of operative action. They had not done so this time based on Egypt's assurance that Israel wouldn't attack and based on the assumption that an IDF attack would not be launched on Saturday. Egypt expressed formal censure of Israel's military operation in Gaza, via a message to the Israeli ambassador in Cairo, but also emphasized that Hamas was responsible for the deteriorating situation.
On the other hand, in a press conference Saturday, Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit held Hamas responsible, saying that "Egypt warned for a long time, and someone who ignores warnings is responsible for the outcome." He added that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert had also sent a warning to Hamas. Earlier, Gheit had said, "we suspected this would happen. Hamas didn't stop shooting rockets at Israel."
Last edited by cactus flower on Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:03 pm | |
| Crusty Burke said - Quote :
- And on the propaganda front Hamas have unquestionably won.
The lesson perhaps is not to kill so many of their children. |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:03 pm | |
| Well the the IRA is an interesting example. My understanding is that they did use human shields, leading to the Bloody Sunday incident. The British disregarded that shield once, and they are still paying the price. The idea of thirteen dead Palestinian civilians making a political difference is laughable. The problem with the human shield argument as I see it is that Israel basically admits to targeting civilians when they say 'Oh, they were hiding behind a human shield'. Human shields are meant to be respected, something that doesn't seem to happen in the so-called Holy Land. |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:20 pm | |
| I suppose another point that might be made with regard to human shields, is that when you're shelling a very small area, from many directions at the same time, in which people are trapped, it's kinda hard not to have some civilians come between you and your alleged target. |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:47 pm | |
| And I'd say it is very hard for Hamas to find anywhere 'non-civilian' to store their weapons. Hezbollah hadn't this excuse in my opinion and I think they were charged with criminal neglect at least for not prioritising civilian safety when they choose to store their weapons. Israel simply shouldn't have even tried to target Hamas weaponry if they thought they might hit civilians. They should acknowledge at least some of the blame for the atrocious death-rate. To me it's a simple case of holding the safety of their own civilians over that of Palestinians. Understandable enough, but not something that will stand up in court. |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:44 am | |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:11 am | |
| With regard to the Beebs neutering after Gilligan. From Richard Seymour's Lenin's Tomb,* on a visit by the director general of the BBC, Mark Thompson, to Jerusalem to meet with the war criminal and hardline Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. At the time, "Sources at the Beeb suspect[ed] that it heralds a "softening" to the corporation's unofficial editorial line on the Middle East." * The very model of a modern director-generalhttp://leninology.blogspot.com/2009/01/very-model-of-modern-director-general.html(a witty re-working of the original Gilbert & Sullivan lyrics by some posters on the above blog) - Quote :
- I am the very model of a tame director general;
I’ve information, processed, sieved and mostly deferential; I know the kings of England and report the fights historical (Be certain my reporting is triumphant and rhetorical). I’m very well acquainted too with things humanitarian - Enough to know they don’t apply to matters Palestinian. My media is slanted, it’s teeming with invented news For a fee I’d even falsify the square of the hypotenuse. Robert Bollard | Homepage | 25 Jan, 23:24 | #
[...]
I can't do any better than Robert Bollard, but I can try to continue his version for the rest of the song ('try' being the key word here).
Refusing to air aid appeals might strike a few of you as callous But who's to say that Christian Aid aren't just a front for Hamas? I’ve information, processed, sieved and mostly deferential I am the very model of a tame director general
Making hard choices is, it seems, always to be my lot in life I hope the Palestinians appreciate my sacrifice. I knew at once of course that the planned appeal would have to be axed: In order to stay neutral we must keep well clear of awkward facts. For recently I've adopted a new, exciting strategy, I've realised what matters most is our impartiality. The deaths of scores of Gazan poor might strike you as a tragedy, But to suggest we don't approve? Now that would mean calamity.
Of course we're always prepared to do our bit for the DEC - Except when doing so might lead to complaints from the Israelis. With information, processed, sieved and mostly deferential I am the very model of a tame director general. Andrew R | 26 Jan, 01:28 | # |
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| Subject: Re: BBC in disgrace over refusal to air appeal for Gaza Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:15 am | |
| - Pax wrote:
- From Richard Seymour's Lenin's Tomb,* on a visit by the director general of the BBC, Mark Thompson, to Jerusalem to meet with the war criminal and hardline Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.
But Sharon, the butcher of Beirut, was never convicted. And hardline as he was, he founded the centrist patry and pulled out of Gaza. |
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