Buried within a article on page 13 of the Irish Times today is a small note mentioning that Hamas security forces have begun to round up residents who were suspected of providing Israel intelligence prior to and during the attack on Gaza by Israel.

"The Internal Security Service was instructed to track collaborators and hit them hard", said Ehab al-Ghsain, spokesman of the Hamas Interior Ministry.

Fatah have issued a statement in Gaza claiming since the fighting ended its members have been targeted by Hamas. Fatah also claimed that there have been summary executions with bodies thrown onto piles of rubble.

Robert Fisk, speaking on Al Jazeera English the other day, said that Israel had a substantial network of informers and spies in the Gaza strip, inlcluding many Fatah people, that had supplied it with information about who lived where etc. in preparation for the slaughter.

Which nevertheless does not warrant summary executions, which should be condemned by all regardless of who carries them out.

johnfás wrote:

Which nevertheless does not warrant summary executions, which should be condemned by all regardless of who carries them out.

The whole business of killing informers is very dirty and dubious. The history of the north of Ireland and the role of individuals like Stake Knife in "knutting" informers has an enormous question mark over it.

It suits the Israelis to have Palestinian militants killing each other. Hamas also is undoubtedly infiltrated, as the Israelis had a good bit to do with building it up in the first place. This may be deeply misguided and coming out of anger at the massacre, or it may be Israeli inspired (or both).

johnfás wrote:

Which nevertheless does not warrant summary executions, which should be condemned by all regardless of who carries them out.

I agree - innocent people will doubtless end up being murdered too in that state of heightened fear and anger. Ive no doubt the Israelis would do the same to informers on their side. And of course they have just visited wholesale slaughter on Gaza themselves.

Aragon wrote:

johnfás wrote:

Which nevertheless does not warrant summary executions, which should be condemned by all regardless of who carries them out.

I agree - innocent people will doubtless end up being murdered too in that state of heightened fear and anger. Ive no doubt the Israelis would do the same to informers on their side. And of course they have just visited wholesale slaughter on Gaza themselves.

They haven't only slaughtered people they have also done their utmost to destroy Gaza as a state. The first thing they did was bomb the newly qualified police on parade. They bombed all the administration buildings and phone exchanges. Then, at any sign that civil society is falling apart, the finger will be pointed at Hamas and the Gazans to say: "you are uncivilised and not capable of running your lives".

There is nothing that Hamas has done that hasn't been done by their attackers a thousand times over.

cactus flower wrote:

Aragon wrote:

johnfás wrote:

Which nevertheless does not warrant summary executions, which should be condemned by all regardless of who carries them out.

I agree - innocent people will doubtless end up being murdered too in that state of heightened fear and anger. Ive no doubt the Israelis would do the same to informers on their side. And of course they have just visited wholesale slaughter on Gaza themselves.

They haven't only slaughtered people they have also done their utmost to destroy Gaza as a state. The first thing they did was bomb the newly qualified police on parade. They bombed all the administration buildings and phone exchanges. Then, at any sign that civil society is falling apart, the finger will be pointed at Hamas and the Gazans to say: "you are uncivilised and not capable of running your lives".

There is nothing that Hamas has done that hasn't been done by their attackers a thousand times over.

I agree totally Cactus. Objectively, summary executions are a bad thing but these people are living in extremis and I can also see logic in the idea that they need to eliminate what has proved to be a deadly threat from within - the Israelis are not finished with them yet. We can't be armchair judges in this from the safety and security of our comfortable homes. What is also incontrovertibly true is that any nation state under comparable seige and attack would do exactly the same. John Pilger calls Hamas heroes in his latest article:

http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=520

The hypocrisy of Aragon & CF here is astonishing, you both are bending over backwards to find reasons to justify murder so long as it’s Hamas who are doing the murdering.
You should both be ashamed of yourselves and anything you post on this subject again should taken with a very large grain of salt and recognised for the one eyed tripe it is.

Apart from that, good evening all.

tonys wrote:

The hypocrisy of Aragon & CF here is astonishing, you both are bending over backwards to find reasons to justify murder so long as it’s Hamas who are doing the murdering.
You should both be ashamed of yourselves and anything you post on this subject again should taken with a very large grain of salt and recognised for the one eyed tripe it is.

Apart from that, good evening all.

The hypocrisy of Tonys here is astonishing. You are beinding over backwards to find reasons to justify murder so long as it's Israel that is doing the murdering. You should be ahsmed of yourself and anything you post on this subject again should be taken with a very large grain of salt and recognised for the one-eyed tripe that it is.

Apart from that, face up to the reality of the murdering Zionist project in Palestine, Tonys. Why do you always side with the bad guys in every discussion?

Aragon wrote:

tonys wrote:

The hypocrisy of Aragon & CF here is astonishing, you both are bending over backwards to find reasons to justify murder so long as it’s Hamas who are doing the murdering.
You should both be ashamed of yourselves and anything you post on this subject again should taken with a very large grain of salt and recognised for the one eyed tripe it is.

Apart from that, good evening all.

The hypocrisy of Tonys here is astonishing. You are beinding over backwards to find reasons to justify murder so long as it's Israel that is doing the murdering. You should be ahsmed of yourself and anything you post on this subject again should be taken with a very large grain of salt and recognised for the one-eyed tripe that it is.

Apart from that, face up to the reality of the murdering Zionist project in Palestine, Tonys. Why do you always side with the bad guys in every discussion?

In fairness, I think I recall him opposing what Israel did recently. I think his point was more against moral relativism, justified or not, than pro-Israel...

Prime Time on now from Gaza, exposing some of the propaganda put out by the IDF. Then at 11.05, Dispatches on Channel4 examines the conflict and the banning of foreign journalists form Gaza, including new footage...

Aragon wrote:

tonys wrote:

The hypocrisy of Aragon & CF here is astonishing, you both are bending over backwards to find reasons to justify murder so long as it’s Hamas who are doing the murdering.
You should both be ashamed of yourselves and anything you post on this subject again should taken with a very large grain of salt and recognised for the one eyed tripe it is.

Apart from that, good evening all.

The hypocrisy of Tonys here is astonishing. You are beinding over backwards to find reasons to justify murder so long as it's Israel that is doing the murdering. You should be ahsmed of yourself and anything you post on this subject again should be taken with a very large grain of salt and recognised for the one-eyed tripe that it is.

Apart from that, face up to the reality of the murdering Zionist project in Palestine, Tonys. Why do you always side with the bad guys in every discussion?

I can point to any of your posts on this thread to justify my post, I challenge you to find any post of my mine where I try to justify Israeli actions. Please come back on this or retract your post.

On the “bad guys”, I can only say in my defence that I never see the “bad guy” signs, my black & white vision was never good. What should I look out for, do they wear them on their head individually or is there a large general sign they gather under.

tonys wrote:

The hypocrisy of Aragon & CF here is astonishing, you both are bending over backwards to find reasons to justify murder so long as it’s Hamas who are doing the murdering.
You should both be ashamed of yourselves and anything you post on this subject again should taken with a very large grain of salt and recognised for the one eyed tripe it is.

Apart from that, good evening all.

What ever you are talking about tonys, Aragon and I have fundamentally different views on this, in that Aragon says its part of war and that Hamas have no alternative to this (if I understand rightly) and I think it is more beneficial to the Israelis than the Palestinians. Both views are honestly held. What's your view of it?

cactus flower wrote:

tonys wrote:

The hypocrisy of Aragon & CF here is astonishing, you both are bending over backwards to find reasons to justify murder so long as it’s Hamas who are doing the murdering.
You should both be ashamed of yourselves and anything you post on this subject again should taken with a very large grain of salt and recognised for the one eyed tripe it is.

Apart from that, good evening all.

What ever you are talking about tonys, Aragon and I have fundamentally different views on this, in that Aragon says its part of war and that Hamas have no alternative to this (if I understand rightly) and I think it is more beneficial to the Israelis than the Palestinians. Both views are honestly held.

Neither view said it was wrong and should not be happening.

My view would be that it is least beneficial to the poor f.cker who gets shot, that it is murder, that nothing the Israelis or anyone else did makes Hamas do this, allows Hamas to do this or justifies Hamas doing this.
My view is based on the fact that those shot, end up dead, in a real and forever sort of way and whether they were “good guys” or “bad guys” makes not the slightest difference to their families left behind, they’ll have to learn to live without them anyway.

tonys wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

tonys wrote:

The hypocrisy of Aragon & CF here is astonishing, you both are bending over backwards to find reasons to justify murder so long as it’s Hamas who are doing the murdering.
You should both be ashamed of yourselves and anything you post on this subject again should taken with a very large grain of salt and recognised for the one eyed tripe it is.

Apart from that, good evening all.

What ever you are talking about tonys, Aragon and I have fundamentally different views on this, in that Aragon says its part of war and that Hamas have no alternative to this (if I understand rightly) and I think it is more beneficial to the Israelis than the Palestinians. Both views are honestly held.

Neither view said it was wrong and should not be happening.

My view would be that it is least beneficial to the poor f.cker who gets shot, that it is murder, that nothing the Israelis or anyone else did makes Hamas do this, allows Hamas to do this or justifies Hamas doing this.
My view is based on the fact that those shot, end up dead, in a real and forever sort of way and whether they were “good guys” or “bad guys” makes not the slightest difference to their families left behind, they’ll have to learn to live without them anyway.

You are completely misrepresenting what I said. It is not a "justification". I'm opposed to it: you might not like the reasons, why, but I can't help that.

Quote :

johnfás wrote:
Which nevertheless does not warrant summary executions, which should be condemned by all regardless of who carries them out.
cf wrote:
The whole business of killing informers is very dirty and dubious. The history of the north of Ireland and the role of individuals like Stake Knife in "nutting" informers has an enormous question mark over it.

It suits the Israelis to have Palestinian militants killing each other. Hamas also is undoubtedly infiltrated, as the Israelis had a good bit to do with building it up in the first place. This may be deeply misguided and coming out of anger at the massacre, or it may be Israeli inspired (or both).

Let's put first things first: the Zionist project that is Israel is the sole original protagonist in this situation. It violently and illegally threw people out of their homes and their country and, fearful of the retribution and justice that was due to their victims ever since, have continued in an increasingly violent and insane attitude towards Palestinians. The latter might, objectively speaking, manage to proceed as saint like people, like no other human beings before them, and put aside feelings of anger, injustice and an ordinary wish merely to be allowed to survive.

YOU are the apologist for murder and terrorisim here Tonys. You defend your position - the law, the history, the facts are all against you. You support violence in the context of self defence: in that case you are obliged to defend Hamas and the Palestinians.

Aragon wrote:

Let's put first things first: the Zionist project that is Israel is the sole original protagonist in this situation. It violently and illegally threw people out of their homes and their country and, fearful of the retribution and justice that was due to their victims ever since, have continued in an increasingly violent and insane attitude towards Palestinians. The latter might, objectively speaking, manage to proceed as saint like people, like no other human beings before them, and put aside feelings of anger, injustice and an ordinary wish merely to be allowed to survive.

YOU are the apologist for murder and terrorisim here Tonys. You defend your position - the law, the history, the facts are all against you. You support violence in the context of self defence: in that case you are obliged to defend Hamas and the Palestinians.

I honestly don't think he did. I seem to remember him saying the manner and extent of what the Israelis were doing was unjustified, perhaps I'm wrong. He's right on the relativism bit certainly, there can be no ifs, buts, or ands about the extrajudicial killings of people who might well be innocent anyway (rumour is often enough, if Ireland's history is a measure). Israel's action, sickening as it was, does not justify these things. And Hamas are not people I would want to ally with anyway...

toxic avenger wrote:

Aragon wrote:

Let's put first things first: the Zionist project that is Israel is the sole original protagonist in this situation. It violently and illegally threw people out of their homes and their country and, fearful of the retribution and justice that was due to their victims ever since, have continued in an increasingly violent and insane attitude towards Palestinians. The latter might, objectively speaking, manage to proceed as saint like people, like no other human beings before them, and put aside feelings of anger, injustice and an ordinary wish merely to be allowed to survive.

YOU are the apologist for murder and terrorisim here Tonys. You defend your position - the law, the history, the facts are all against you. You support violence in the context of self defence: in that case you are obliged to defend Hamas and the Palestinians.

I honestly don't think he did. I seem to remember him saying the manner and extent of what the Israelis were doing was unjustified, perhaps I'm wrong. He's right on the relativism bit certainly, there can be no ifs, buts, or ands about the extrajudicial killings of people who might well be innocent anyway (rumour is often enough, if Ireland's history is a measure). Israel's action, sickening as it was, does not justify these things. And Hamas are not people I would want to ally with anyway...

Why is that Toxic? Because of what you read in 'news' papers? Hamas are the democratically elected government of Palestine - elected because of their stance against the corruption and capitulation of Fatah to US/Israeli pressure. When people in Palestine were suffering appalling humanitarian deprivation, inflicted by Israel, and going neglected by Fatah, Hamas filled the gap. Yes they are angry and determined to defend Palestinians against outrageous Israeli bullying and aggression. When they defend themselves they are accused of terroirism. Should they lie down and die quietly for the Zionists? Give up their homes without demur for illegal settlers? What has the international community done in the face of all this violent illegality? Sweet fuck all, is what, for sixty years. Yes they have religious convictions that most of us dont share viz women eg. But they are not evil people. The mainstream western media has sung the US/Israel tune about Hamas like shrill chorus girls ever since their election victory. They were criminally attacked and deposed - despite massive evidence of their attempts to negotiate and try diplomatic means to a resolution. Again you won't read that in mainstream media. They did not break the ceasefire, Israel did. Israel has admitted that. Yet again, you won't read that in mainstream media. US/Israel does not want peace - it doesnt suit its economic objectives in the region. Not until US/Israel has secured its oil/gas interests in the region and ensured that Palestinians are not a threat to those objectives will Palestinians be 'allowed' any peace or autonomy. Jesus, there has scarcely been such a blatant example of an entirely innocent country and its people being so disgustingly used and abused. I wish people would take the trouble to find out about Zionism and what it really is - the horrible effect it has had on the collective Israeli outlook - and above all the way that horrific perspective has been so coldly exploited by US interests who actually don't give a damn about the Zionists -whatever AIPAC might like to believe.

As for the rockets. Pathetic. The death tolls alone will tell you how so. Thousands of Palestinians killed in the last decade as comapred to less than 50 Israelis. Here's an example of how and why they get fired: when pregnant women are not allowed through check points to hospitals and are forced to give birth in boiling heat in front of Israeli soldiers who do nothing to help them and will not let them through. And the baby dies. Of they both die. Or 'just' the mother dies. Or an elderly person who needs care dies. When people who are trying to feed their families are abirtrailiy prevented from getting to work, repeatedly. When doctors are prevented from going to visit people in need of urgent medical attention. When children playing nearby or are simpy on their way to or from school are shot dead for no reason. When Israel decides to demolish yet another Palestinian home and the family try to protest. I'd go home and fire a fucking rocket myself.

Aragon wrote:

toxic avenger wrote:

Aragon wrote:

Let's put first things first: the Zionist project that is Israel is the sole original protagonist in this situation. It violently and illegally threw people out of their homes and their country and, fearful of the retribution and justice that was due to their victims ever since, have continued in an increasingly violent and insane attitude towards Palestinians. The latter might, objectively speaking, manage to proceed as saint like people, like no other human beings before them, and put aside feelings of anger, injustice and an ordinary wish merely to be allowed to survive.

YOU are the apologist for murder and terrorisim here Tonys. You defend your position - the law, the history, the facts are all against you. You support violence in the context of self defence: in that case you are obliged to defend Hamas and the Palestinians.

I honestly don't think he did. I seem to remember him saying the manner and extent of what the Israelis were doing was unjustified, perhaps I'm wrong. He's right on the relativism bit certainly, there can be no ifs, buts, or ands about the extrajudicial killings of people who might well be innocent anyway (rumour is often enough, if Ireland's history is a measure). Israel's action, sickening as it was, does not justify these things. And Hamas are not people I would want to ally with anyway...

Why is that Toxic? Because of what you read in 'news' papers? Hamas are the democratically elected government of Palestine - elected because of their stance against the corruption and capitulation of Fatah to US/Israeli pressure. When people in Palestine were suffering appalling humanitarian deprivation, inflicted by Israel, and going neglected by Fatah, Hamas filled the gap. Yes they are angry and determined to defend Palestinians against outrageous Israeli bullying and aggression. When they defend themselves they are accused of terroirism. Should they lie down and die quietly for the Zionists? Give up their homes without demur for illegal settlers? What has the international community done in the face of all this violent illegality? Sweet fuck all, is what, for sixty years. Yes they have religious convictions that most of us dont share viz women eg. But they are not evil people. The mainstream western media has sung the US/Israel tune about Hamas like shrill chorus girls ever since their election victory. They were criminally attacked and deposed - despite massive evidence of their attempts to negotiate and try diplomatic means to a resolution. Again you won't read that in mainstream media. They did not break the ceasefire, Israel did. Israel has admitted that. Yet again, you won't read that in mainstream media. US/Israel does not want peace - it doesnt suit its economic objectives in the region. Not until US/Israel has secured its oil/gas interests in the region and ensured that Palestinians are not a threat to those objectives will Palestinians be 'allowed' any peace or autonomy. Jesus, there has scarcely been such a blatant example of an entirely innocent country and its people being so disgustingly used and abused. I wish people would take the trouble to find out about Zionism and what it really is - the horrible effect it has had on the collective Israeli outlook - and above all the way that horrific perspective has been so coldly exploited by US interests who actually don't give a damn about the Zionists -whatever AIPAC might like to believe.

As for the rockets. Pathetic. The death tolls alone will tell you how so. Thousands of Palestinians killed in the last decade as comapred to less than 50 Israelis. Here's an example of how and why they get fired: when pregnant women are not allowed through check points to hospitals and are forced to give birth in boiling heat in front of Israeli soldiers who do nothing to help them and will not let them through. And the baby dies. Of they both die. Or 'just' the mother dies. Or an elderly person who needs care dies. When people who are trying to feed their families are abirtrailiy prevented from getting to work, repeatedly. When doctors are prevented from going to visit people in need of urgent medical attention. When children playing nearby or are simpy on their way to or from school are shot dead for no reason. When Israel decides to demolish yet another Palestinian home and the family try to protest. I'd go home and fire a fucking rocket myself.

I don't understand. You're writing as if I don't know exactly what the Israelis have behaved like, or how they have twisted, lied, and spun for years on what they have done. You seem to also be writing as if I don't know exactly what caused this latest round of events, when I posted on the November 4th killings here and on the other site weeks ago, pretty much the first to do so. I have opposed Israeli aggression for years. And I'm fully aware of virtually everything they have done down the years since occupation. You then seem to present a 'with us or against us' ultimatum. I absolutely reject the idea out of hand that opposition to Fatah corruption and ineptitude, and to Israeli murder or lies, means that I must therefore row in behind Hamas or Hizbullah. Absolutely bloody not. I view Islamism as another form of fascism, one that you would be, I hope, horrified by should it ever become an established power there. Hamas are the underdogs now, but if the boot were on the other foot, they would be a nasty anti-women's rights, anti-homosexual, anti-free speech, anti-democratic regime, and wouldn't give a toss about the various underdogs underneath them. I absolutely oppose them, and make no apology for doing so. I view it as a grave error to jump to the defence of Hamas out of disgust for Israel's actions. And a very silly error to equate Palestinian suffering with their cause either, something the Israelis have been using as justification for indiscrimnate attacks for some time now. So, no apologies, I'm no relativist, I condemn the Israelis actions, but I condemn anything Hamas does that's morally wrong equally.

EDIT - I should add, by the way, that as someone who grew up in London during the 70s and 80s in an Irish family, in circumstances you might not readily understand, being lectured on my views being based on 'what I read in the papers' is not something I need to hear, it is quite condescending in fact.

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with shooting informers and spies, particularly so if they've given logistical information to an enemy who was just about to launch an attack. Whether it be in Gaza, Israel or in Ireland.

Extrajudicial? It's a bloody war zone set in a concentration camp. Methinks that Israel targeted law enforcement anyways, so the judicial route is somewhat impeded. If this had been during WWII and the Jews were killing informers and spies to avert genocide, there'd be little argument against it, of merit.

On the other hand, if it's a political purge disguised as a hunt for spies and informers, then that's different. But since Hamas are the elected government and have the mandate of the majority, I doubt it's a political purge.

Hermes wrote:

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with shooting informers and spies, particularly so if they've given logistical information to an enemy who was just about to launch an attack. Whether it be in Gaza, Israel or in Ireland.

Extrajudicial? It's a bloody war zone set in a concentration camp. Methinks that Israel targeted law enforcement anyways, so the judicial route is somewhat impeded. If this had been during WWII and the Jews were killing informers and spies to avert genocide, there'd be little argument against it, of merit.

On the other hand, if it's a political purge disguised as a hunt for spies and informers, then that's different. But since Hamas are the elected government have have the mandate of the majority, I doubt it's a political purge.

And if those executed people are innocent?...

toxic avenger wrote:

Hermes wrote:

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with shooting informers and spies, particularly so if they've given logistical information to an enemy who was just about to launch an attack. Whether it be in Gaza, Israel or in Ireland.

Extrajudicial? It's a bloody war zone set in a concentration camp. Methinks that Israel targeted law enforcement anyways, so the judicial route is somewhat impeded. If this had been during WWII and the Jews were killing informers and spies to avert genocide, there'd be little argument against it, of merit.

On the other hand, if it's a political purge disguised as a hunt for spies and informers, then that's different. But since Hamas are the elected government have have the mandate of the majority, I doubt it's a political purge.

And if those executed people are innocent?...

That'd be murder.

toxic avenger wrote:

Aragon wrote:

toxic avenger wrote:

Aragon wrote:

Let's put first things first: the Zionist project that is Israel is the sole original protagonist in this situation. It violently and illegally threw people out of their homes and their country and, fearful of the retribution and justice that was due to their victims ever since, have continued in an increasingly violent and insane attitude towards Palestinians. The latter might, objectively speaking, manage to proceed as saint like people, like no other human beings before them, and put aside feelings of anger, injustice and an ordinary wish merely to be allowed to survive.

YOU are the apologist for murder and terrorisim here Tonys. You defend your position - the law, the history, the facts are all against you. You support violence in the context of self defence: in that case you are obliged to defend Hamas and the Palestinians.

I honestly don't think he did. I seem to remember him saying the manner and extent of what the Israelis were doing was unjustified, perhaps I'm wrong. He's right on the relativism bit certainly, there can be no ifs, buts, or ands about the extrajudicial killings of people who might well be innocent anyway (rumour is often enough, if Ireland's history is a measure). Israel's action, sickening as it was, does not justify these things. And Hamas are not people I would want to ally with anyway...

Why is that Toxic? Because of what you read in 'news' papers? Hamas are the democratically elected government of Palestine - elected because of their stance against the corruption and capitulation of Fatah to US/Israeli pressure. When people in Palestine were suffering appalling humanitarian deprivation, inflicted by Israel, and going neglected by Fatah, Hamas filled the gap. Yes they are angry and determined to defend Palestinians against outrageous Israeli bullying and aggression. When they defend themselves they are accused of terroirism. Should they lie down and die quietly for the Zionists? Give up their homes without demur for illegal settlers? What has the international community done in the face of all this violent illegality? Sweet fuck all, is what, for sixty years. Yes they have religious convictions that most of us dont share viz women eg. But they are not evil people. The mainstream western media has sung the US/Israel tune about Hamas like shrill chorus girls ever since their election victory. They were criminally attacked and deposed - despite massive evidence of their attempts to negotiate and try diplomatic means to a resolution. Again you won't read that in mainstream media. They did not break the ceasefire, Israel did. Israel has admitted that. Yet again, you won't read that in mainstream media. US/Israel does not want peace - it doesnt suit its economic objectives in the region. Not until US/Israel has secured its oil/gas interests in the region and ensured that Palestinians are not a threat to those objectives will Palestinians be 'allowed' any peace or autonomy. Jesus, there has scarcely been such a blatant example of an entirely innocent country and its people being so disgustingly used and abused. I wish people would take the trouble to find out about Zionism and what it really is - the horrible effect it has had on the collective Israeli outlook - and above all the way that horrific perspective has been so coldly exploited by US interests who actually don't give a damn about the Zionists -whatever AIPAC might like to believe.

As for the rockets. Pathetic. The death tolls alone will tell you how so. Thousands of Palestinians killed in the last decade as comapred to less than 50 Israelis. Here's an example of how and why they get fired: when pregnant women are not allowed through check points to hospitals and are forced to give birth in boiling heat in front of Israeli soldiers who do nothing to help them and will not let them through. And the baby dies. Of they both die. Or 'just' the mother dies. Or an elderly person who needs care dies. When people who are trying to feed their families are abirtrailiy prevented from getting to work, repeatedly. When doctors are prevented from going to visit people in need of urgent medical attention. When children playing nearby or are simpy on their way to or from school are shot dead for no reason. When Israel decides to demolish yet another Palestinian home and the family try to protest. I'd go home and fire a fucking rocket myself.

I don't understand. You're writing as if I don't know exactly what the Israelis have behaved like, or how they have twisted, lied, and spun for years on what they have done. You seem to also be writing as if I don't know exactly what caused this latest round of events, when I posted on the November 4th killings here and on the other site weeks ago, pretty much the first to do so. I have opposed Israeli aggression for years. And I'm fully aware of virtually everything they have done down the years since occupation. You then seem to present a 'with us or against us' ultimatum. I absolutely reject the idea out of hand that opposition to Fatah corruption and ineptitude, and to Israeli murder or lies, means that I must therefore row in behind Hamas or Hizbullah. Absolutely bloody not. I view Islamism as another form of fascism, one that you would be, I hope, horrified by should it ever become an established power there. Hamas are the underdogs now, but if the boot were on the other foot, they would be a nasty anti-women's rights, anti-homosexual, anti-free speech, anti-democratic regime, and wouldn't give a toss about the various underdogs underneath them. I absolutely oppose them, and make no apology for doing so. I view it as a grave error to jump to the defence of Hamas out of disgust for Israel's actions. And a very silly error to equate Palestinian suffering with their cause either, something the Israelis have been using as justification for indiscrimnate attacks for some time now. So, no apologies, I'm no relativist, I condemn the Israelis actions, but I condemn anything Hamas does that's morally wrong equally.

EDIT - I should add, by the way, that as someone who grew up in London during the 70s and 80s in an Irish family, in circumstances you might not readily understand, being lectured on my views being based on 'what I read in the papers' is not something I need to hear, it is quite condescending in fact.

I repeat - because you didn't take it in earlier - I don't support the relgious views of Hamas either. But those are not the points that are at issue here - not even among the Israeli/US/Egyptian coalition against them. Not least because each of them, in their own way, are guilty of equal if not worse repression and infintely more violence than Hamas are guilty of. What incenses me is the seeming imperative of those who think they are taking a 'balanced' view of the situation, is the extremes they are prepared to go to in order to paint this situaiton as if it were a question of two equal evils. It absolutely is not. A lot of the hatred directed at Hamas and the Palestinians is pure racism. The overwheliming, incontrovertible wrong was and is being committed by US/Israel. Yet every fault that Hamas has is magnified so as to make them seem as if they were equal protagonists in this. This is about oil and gas, the wars being waged to secure access to them and the official narrative that disguises that objective - and also about the ignorant stupidity of so-called journalism which never searches for the real truth in the story.

When you are talking about whether a woman has been raped, you don't decide whether she was or not based on her religious affiliations. When she has been repeatedly raped by the same attacker, you understand both her desperation and all she has been forced to do from a position of powerlessness to defend herself in whatever way she can. You don't say, 'yeah well, she doesn't have very nice views about some things so she must be held to be equally culpable for desperately and pathetically defending herself in the crime against her, however viciously she was attacked'.

Incidentally, I know all about being Irish in London - I lived in the UK from a young age for 25 years - 11 of them in London. So we both know all about that.

Hermes wrote:

toxic avenger wrote:

Hermes wrote:

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with shooting informers and spies, particularly so if they've given logistical information to an enemy who was just about to launch an attack. Whether it be in Gaza, Israel or in Ireland.

Extrajudicial? It's a bloody war zone set in a concentration camp. Methinks that Israel targeted law enforcement anyways, so the judicial route is somewhat impeded. If this had been during WWII and the Jews were killing informers and spies to avert genocide, there'd be little argument against it, of merit.

On the other hand, if it's a political purge disguised as a hunt for spies and informers, then that's different. But since Hamas are the elected government have have the mandate of the majority, I doubt it's a political purge.

And if those executed people are innocent?...

That'd be murder.

Quite. Not much use to the poor sods to know that after they're dead though...

Aragon wrote:

toxic avenger wrote:

Aragon wrote:

toxic avenger wrote:

Aragon wrote:

Let's put first things first: the Zionist project that is Israel is the sole original protagonist in this situation. It violently and illegally threw people out of their homes and their country and, fearful of the retribution and justice that was due to their victims ever since, have continued in an increasingly violent and insane attitude towards Palestinians. The latter might, objectively speaking, manage to proceed as saint like people, like no other human beings before them, and put aside feelings of anger, injustice and an ordinary wish merely to be allowed to survive.

YOU are the apologist for murder and terrorisim here Tonys. You defend your position - the law, the history, the facts are all against you. You support violence in the context of self defence: in that case you are obliged to defend Hamas and the Palestinians.

I honestly don't think he did. I seem to remember him saying the manner and extent of what the Israelis were doing was unjustified, perhaps I'm wrong. He's right on the relativism bit certainly, there can be no ifs, buts, or ands about the extrajudicial killings of people who might well be innocent anyway (rumour is often enough, if Ireland's history is a measure). Israel's action, sickening as it was, does not justify these things. And Hamas are not people I would want to ally with anyway...

Why is that Toxic? Because of what you read in 'news' papers? Hamas are the democratically elected government of Palestine - elected because of their stance against the corruption and capitulation of Fatah to US/Israeli pressure. When people in Palestine were suffering appalling humanitarian deprivation, inflicted by Israel, and going neglected by Fatah, Hamas filled the gap. Yes they are angry and determined to defend Palestinians against outrageous Israeli bullying and aggression. When they defend themselves they are accused of terroirism. Should they lie down and die quietly for the Zionists? Give up their homes without demur for illegal settlers? What has the international community done in the face of all this violent illegality? Sweet fuck all, is what, for sixty years. Yes they have religious convictions that most of us dont share viz women eg. But they are not evil people. The mainstream western media has sung the US/Israel tune about Hamas like shrill chorus girls ever since their election victory. They were criminally attacked and deposed - despite massive evidence of their attempts to negotiate and try diplomatic means to a resolution. Again you won't read that in mainstream media. They did not break the ceasefire, Israel did. Israel has admitted that. Yet again, you won't read that in mainstream media. US/Israel does not want peace - it doesnt suit its economic objectives in the region. Not until US/Israel has secured its oil/gas interests in the region and ensured that Palestinians are not a threat to those objectives will Palestinians be 'allowed' any peace or autonomy. Jesus, there has scarcely been such a blatant example of an entirely innocent country and its people being so disgustingly used and abused. I wish people would take the trouble to find out about Zionism and what it really is - the horrible effect it has had on the collective Israeli outlook - and above all the way that horrific perspective has been so coldly exploited by US interests who actually don't give a damn about the Zionists -whatever AIPAC might like to believe.

As for the rockets. Pathetic. The death tolls alone will tell you how so. Thousands of Palestinians killed in the last decade as comapred to less than 50 Israelis. Here's an example of how and why they get fired: when pregnant women are not allowed through check points to hospitals and are forced to give birth in boiling heat in front of Israeli soldiers who do nothing to help them and will not let them through. And the baby dies. Of they both die. Or 'just' the mother dies. Or an elderly person who needs care dies. When people who are trying to feed their families are abirtrailiy prevented from getting to work, repeatedly. When doctors are prevented from going to visit people in need of urgent medical attention. When children playing nearby or are simpy on their way to or from school are shot dead for no reason. When Israel decides to demolish yet another Palestinian home and the family try to protest. I'd go home and fire a fucking rocket myself.

I don't understand. You're writing as if I don't know exactly what the Israelis have behaved like, or how they have twisted, lied, and spun for years on what they have done. You seem to also be writing as if I don't know exactly what caused this latest round of events, when I posted on the November 4th killings here and on the other site weeks ago, pretty much the first to do so. I have opposed Israeli aggression for years. And I'm fully aware of virtually everything they have done down the years since occupation. You then seem to present a 'with us or against us' ultimatum. I absolutely reject the idea out of hand that opposition to Fatah corruption and ineptitude, and to Israeli murder or lies, means that I must therefore row in behind Hamas or Hizbullah. Absolutely bloody not. I view Islamism as another form of fascism, one that you would be, I hope, horrified by should it ever become an established power there. Hamas are the underdogs now, but if the boot were on the other foot, they would be a nasty anti-women's rights, anti-homosexual, anti-free speech, anti-democratic regime, and wouldn't give a toss about the various underdogs underneath them. I absolutely oppose them, and make no apology for doing so. I view it as a grave error to jump to the defence of Hamas out of disgust for Israel's actions. And a very silly error to equate Palestinian suffering with their cause either, something the Israelis have been using as justification for indiscrimnate attacks for some time now. So, no apologies, I'm no relativist, I condemn the Israelis actions, but I condemn anything Hamas does that's morally wrong equally.

EDIT - I should add, by the way, that as someone who grew up in London during the 70s and 80s in an Irish family, in circumstances you might not readily understand, being lectured on my views being based on 'what I read in the papers' is not something I need to hear, it is quite condescending in fact.

I repeat - because you didn't take it in earlier - I don't support the relgious views of Hamas either. But those are not the points that are at issue here - not even among the Israeli/US/Egyptian coalition against them. Not least because each of them, in their own way, are guilty of equal if not worse repression and infintely more violence than Hamas are guilty of. What incenses me is the seeming imperative of those who think they are taking a 'balanced' view of the situation, and the extremes they are prepared to go to in order to paint this situaiton as if it were a question of two equal evils. It absolutely is not. A lot of the hatred directed at Hamas and the Palestinians is pure racism. The overwheliming, incontrovertible wrong was and is being committed by US/Israel. Yet every fault that Hamas may has is magnified so as to make them seem as if they were equal protagonists in this. This is about oil and gas and the official narrative - and the ignorant stupidity of so-called journalism which never searches for the real balance in the story.

When you are talking about whether a woman has been raped, you don't decide whether she was or not based on her religious affiliations. When she has been repeatedly raped by the same attacker, you understand both her desperation and all she has been forced to do from a position of powerlessness to defend herself in whatever way she can. You don't say, 'yeah well, she doesn't have very nice views about some things so she must be held to be equally culpable for desperately defending herself in the crime against her, however viciously she was attacked'.

Incidentally, I know all about being Irish in London - I lived in the UK from a young age for 25 years - 11 of them in London. So you don't need to tell me about that.

Rewind a minute. I originally posted my view that Hamas are not people I'd ally myself with. That has now turned, somehow, into me saying there is some equivalence between what the Israelis have done and what has been done to the Israelis. I have not ever held or stated that view, in fact only this evening on the other site I criticised the tendency of some British broadcast media to look for some absurd sort of 'balance' in reporting suffering, utterly distorting to the point of being a sick joke the reality of what has happened. Your analogy with a raped woman is therefore not the issue, nor, I believe, is it an appropriate analogy for what is being discussed here. This thread is specifically about the execution of people suspected of being informers or whatever. It is perfectly acceptable to say that it is wrong, without equivocation or whataboutery, it has no bearing on the moral position against Israel's actions. As you grew up in Britain, you'll know what could have happened to a number of innocent Irish people had the death penalty been open to the judges hearing their cases. And you say that I missed that you didn't support some of Hamas' religious views, I did not, your original reply to me was based on my criticism of those very views, and, more importantly, the fact that Hamas would not hesitate, given the chance, to impose those views on everyone, and to stamp out democracy in the process. You again refer to the actions of others, this time the Americans and Egyptians, as if it were some kind of mitigation. That is moral relativism, and I don't accept it.

In short, I condemn the Israelis' actions, I condemn the Americans and British for their silence (and add, in fairness, a note of applause for Micheal Martin and Brian Cowen speaking out), I condemn the distortion in the media that arises from this absurd notion of being 'balanced', but I equally condemn Hamas for any unjustified killings or actions on their part, and I oppose the agenda of Hamas as much as I oppose the agenda of the Israelis. It's not 'with us or against us'. I am not going to warp my morality to fit in.