TD's expenses / Varadkar spends 7k on delivering leaflets and only €110 on books :-(

Ronald Binge

There's lots of kinds of wheels, cogs, rags, grease and so on and the canvasser of course is one of the more important and deserves gernerous remuneration as I'm sure you'll get and I'm not doubting you deserve it in the slightest.

As you say, it's a passion though and you do it because you believe in it. If you're talking to people to try to convince them of your point of view then you do it because you want to do that not because you have to. If you have to then go out on the street and collect for Concern.

I'm certainly not taking issue then with any minister or TD paying canvassers or whatever. What Leo Varadkar did was provide people information and I hope it's not interpreted that we are abusing it because that's not the way. Analyse perhaps but we're certainly not mocking, jeering or trivialising his efforts.

It's a broader question today on the day that's in with transparency of information. Hard and all as it is to canvass door to door and outside supermarkets and on street corners, it is like getting blood out of a stone with getting good information that is crucial to acquire in order that things be run half properly.

This Anglo bank thing today is a prime case of hiding information, the culture of which Varadker with some courage and a bit of html, is attempting to erode away in his own little way as it happens to be with the enormous Iron Curtains that seem to be out there hiding nothing less than very crucial information.

Thanks Auditor #9, but I want to make crystal clear that one of the cornerstones of being involved as a canvasser as far as I'm concerned is that you do not get paid for what you do.

We're Volunteers. We do this because we believe in what we do. Not because we get any monetary reward for it.

Really, pints (brought by ourselves) and the craic is all the reward we want.

If I was offered money I would refuse it. I don't know of any canvasser who has taken money to canvass and if I knew of anyone who had I would refuse to use them as part of my team.

Sorry to labour this point but it is an important one to make.

Ronald Binge wrote:

Thanks Auditor #9, but I want to make crystal clear that one of the cornerstones of being involved as a canvasser as far as I'm concerned is that you do not get paid for what you do.

We're Volunteers. We do this because we believe in what we do. Not because we get any monetary reward for it.

Really, pints (brought by ourselves) and the craic is all the reward we want.

If I was offered money I would refuse it. I don't know of any canvasser who has taken money to canvass and if I knew of anyone who had I would refuse to use them as part of my team.

Sorry to labour this point but it is an important one to make.

Ronald I think you're mad not to accept payment if you can get it but I certainly believe those people who argue on the doorsteps should without question be paid. No doubt about it - or if they are given some shekels then that's not an issue or shouldn't be. Paying runners for fliers delivery is also worth payment - does anyone disagree with this ???? and if you refuse payment then you are either very dedicated or your party is broke. I don't think FG is broke and as a neutralish voter I don't disagree with using tax money for promotion of democracy of which we don't have enough hence the bitter comments to Edo on once, twice, three times in five years.

I think you should labour your point all you like, that's what this thread is about. It might turn out that Leo isn't paying you enough or that there should be a fund out there which compels parties to have public meetings and whatever else can be done to get people thinking about and interested in the system of democracy we have.


Maybe the thread title doesn't reflect that we are not insulting him so that can be changed if it offends anyone - but it was meant to be a little jocular hence the smilery and the book reference. It was written with no malice in mind - I simply took two figures from the expenses and made it into a thread title.

There was nothing provocative meant and if ye want it changed all suggestions welcome.

Ronald Binge wrote:

Really, pints (brought by ourselves) and the craic is all the reward we want.

And success for your party too, of course!

Ronald Binge wrote:

Thanks Auditor #9, but I want to make crystal clear that one of the cornerstones of being involved as a canvasser as far as I'm concerned is that you do not get paid for what you do.

We're Volunteers. We do this because we believe in what we do. Not because we get any monetary reward for it.

Really, pints (brought by ourselves) and the craic is all the reward we want.

If I was offered money I would refuse it. I don't know of any canvasser who has taken money to canvass and if I knew of anyone who had I would refuse to use them as part of my team.

Sorry to labour this point but it is an important one to make.

You don't get paid Ronald (unless you count the pints ) , but I was shocked to hear a Labour spokesperson on the radio recently, I think it was Rabitte, saying that he thought it was only right and proper that someone who canvassed for him would get a post or position on a board or quango or whatever - a good canvasser is not neccessarily what's needed on the Arts Council Summer Collection Monitoring Board or the Sheep Dip Committee.

But there you go. It doesn't happen with most, but some people are always going to think that what they put in to politics at any level entitles them to get something out of it. Its no good relying on good motivation and basic honesty: imo we need to tighten up our corruption laws and stop this business of political appointments to Boards.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Ronald Binge wrote:

Thanks Auditor #9, but I want to make crystal clear that one of the cornerstones of being involved as a canvasser as far as I'm concerned is that you do not get paid for what you do.

We're Volunteers. We do this because we believe in what we do. Not because we get any monetary reward for it.

Really, pints (brought by ourselves) and the craic is all the reward we want.

If I was offered money I would refuse it. I don't know of any canvasser who has taken money to canvass and if I knew of anyone who had I would refuse to use them as part of my team.

Sorry to labour this point but it is an important one to make.

Ronald I think you're mad not to accept payment if you can get it but I certainly believe those people who argue on the doorsteps should without question be paid. No doubt about it - or if they are given some shekels then that's not an issue or shouldn't be. Paying runners for fliers delivery is also worth payment - does anyone disagree with this ???? and if you refuse payment then you are either very dedicated or your party is broke. I don't think FG is broke and as a neutralish voter I don't disagree with using tax money for promotion of democracy of which we don't have enough hence the bitter comments to Edo on once, twice, three times in five years.

I think you should labour your point all you like, that's what this thread is about. It might turn out that Leo isn't paying you enough or that there should be a fund out there which compels parties to have public meetings and whatever else can be done to get people thinking about and interested in the system of democracy we have.


Maybe the thread title doesn't reflect that we are not insulting him so that can be changed if it offends anyone - but it was meant to be a little jocular hence the smilery and the book reference. It was written with no malice in mind - I simply took two figures from the expenses and made it into a thread title.

There was nothing provocative meant and if ye want it changed all suggestions welcome.

There is a world of difference between paying for leaflet drops, the money for which usually goes to commercial organisations who specialise in delivery and getting knowledgeable people on the doors to answer voters' questions. God knows there is enough cynicism about politics in this country when voters could then charge Joe from FF or Eileen from Labour who calls to the door a couple of times a year for being on the take as well. I think it is still vital to have that core of volunteers who do the coalface work out of principle or belief because it is one of the very few links left with the notion that keeping the machinery of politics going is motivated by practical patriotism and not by hard cash.

cookiemonster wrote:

Ronald Binge wrote:

Really, pints (brought by ourselves) and the craic is all the reward we want.

And success for your party too, of course!

That too

cactus flower wrote:

You don't get paid Ronald (unless you count the pints ) , but I was shocked to hear a Labour spokesperson on the radio recently, I think it was Rabitte, saying that he thought it was only right and proper that someone who canvassed for him would get a post or position on a board or quango or whatever - a good canvasser is not neccessarily what's needed on the Arts Council Summer Collection Monitoring Board or the Sheep Dip Committee.

But there you go. It doesn't happen with most, but some people are always going to think that what they put in to politics at any level entitles them to get something out of it. Its no good relying on good motivation and basic honesty: imo we need to tighten up our corruption laws and stop this business of political appointments to Boards.

I wouldn't disagree with what you say there cactus flower. A scenario like you describe is something we can do without.

Look, can't the Party pay some people and the taxpayer pay some people ? It's an important thing, getting democracy and conversation out there and there's not enough of it and it gets people fit and talking and doesn't waste too much resources once the canvassers are driving around in Tata Nanos.


It might contribute to incidence of liver sclerosis though

Ronald Binge wrote:

Thanks Auditor #9, but I want to make crystal clear that one of the cornerstones of being involved as a canvasser as far as I'm concerned is that you do not get paid for what you do.

We're Volunteers. We do this because we believe in what we do. Not because we get any monetary reward for it.

Really, pints (brought by ourselves) and the craic is all the reward we want.

If I was offered money I would refuse it. I don't know of any canvasser who has taken money to canvass and if I knew of anyone who had I would refuse to use them as part of my team.

Sorry to labour this point but it is an important one to make.

The key thing to remember is the difference between canvassers and those who do leaflet drops. Years ago, FF, FG, Labour etc all had mass organisations with plenty of young people in them who could do both. All parties worldwide (and other non-political organisations) have the same problem these days - young people do not get involved in the ground work to the same extent. FF cumainn countrywide have less young people in them than they had in the 1980s. Ditto with FG and Labour. Ditto with the Vincent de Paul, and every other organisation. At the same time, it is now easier to design and print leaflets. A party member with a mac and do a leaflet for someone. Those leaflets fill in a void where political coverage has collapsed. The Indo two decades ago had an entire page devoted to Dáil coverage. Now they often do not have any.

So you have far more leaflets and organisations with an older membership who simply cannot deliver tens of thousands of leaflets. (Some years ago I heard from a friend in FF that they had to move their local cumann meeting from an upstairs room to a downstairs one because a lot of the membership were too elderly to climb the stairs!)

Canvassing is still, and always will, be done by party members and supporters. But leaflet drops are now done in most cases by hired droppers. There also are speed considerations. If one is doing a budget leaflet, you need the leaflet dropped immediately throughout the constituency rather than have the same 40 people drop leaflets bit by bit throughout the constituency, with some parts maybe not getting it for 6-8 weeks, by which time another leaflet may be due to be dropped.

Ironically according to media reports under Enda Kenny FG membership has rocketed to numbers not seen since Garret whereas in FF over the last 5 years the membership has been plummeting. FG has also been attracting more younger members, more working class members and more women than FF, an astonishing turn around. FF seems to have been suffering a massive decline in membership, with talk now of the party abolishing its traditional cumainn (branches) in Dublin and one suggestion that even Comhairle Dáil Ceanntair be abolished. (I don't think in Dublin they have Comhairle Ceanntair.) That is why some FFers speak of the 2007 election win as being FF's version of the Tories' 1992, one last (unexpected) victory before a massive defeat. Certainly the astonishing collapse in FF support in the polls does seem to have followed serious problems in recruiting members in the previous couple of years. It suggests that all is not well in FF, while in contrast FG's big poll increase seems to have followed a considerable increase in FG membership. (At their 2007 Ard Fheis 1000 FGers had to be turned away from the hall before the leaders' speech because there was no space, and that was after they packed the hall with a massive number of extra seats. FGers were all talking about the massive turnout that far exceeded their best hopes. FF in the same venue had less than expected.)

Just as a footnote, ( appropriately ) one visit by a personal canvasser is worth x 1,200 leaflets (approx.).

Papal Knight wrote:

All parties worldwide (and other non-political organisations) have the same problem these days - young people do not get involved in the ground work to the same extent. FF cumainn countrywide have less young people in them than they had in the 1980s. Ditto with FG and Labour. Ditto with the Vincent de Paul, and every other organisation. At the same time, it is now easier to design and print leaflets. A party member with a mac and do a leaflet for someone. Those leaflets fill in a void where political coverage has collapsed. The Indo two decades ago had an entire page devoted to Dáil coverage. Now they often do not have any.

...

(At their 2007 Ard Fheis 1000 FGers had to be turned away from the hall before the leaders' speech because there was no space, and that was after they packed the hall with a massive number of extra seats. FGers were all talking about the massive turnout that far exceeded their best hopes. FF in the same venue had less than expected.)

Desktop publishing - how has it changed canvassing. Indeed even the internet itself is used by canvassers to promote their parties and it's undoubtedly effective as the Pin and P.ie of course have shown. Both have been named in the media as having influenced one thing or another - that's impressive, you have to say. EVen here cookie has been accused by Kev Bar of getting paid to post here ..

But that's the power of information by itself, I'm convinced. Don't try to persuade someone just give them the clearest picture of the facts as you can. If the facts are obviously muddied then tell them a tale, story, parable. Sometimes just one item of clothing can hold 10,000 words. Ahem.

So you reckon FG are really ramping up support something powerful while FF support is collapsing ? I think they deserve some salute for going on the road there recently and I think the likes of parties and rallies and meetings should be almost compulsory but as you say, young people just don't go to meetings and I know well what you mean by the age average at meetings - every one I go to I'm the youngest by ten years. Me and two other anoraks. It's like going to Mass.

It'd be an interesting topic to sound people out on ways of getting younger people interested.... I think more regular participatory voting where they get something out of it. With voting there's often an element of education involved of course and young people don't often like going to the trouble.

Maybe something controversial, interesting or cool ...

Pretty much every organisation struggles in terms of volunteerism. There was a time when Bertie Ahern wanted one of his legacies to be a renewal of volunteerism. To that end he established the taskforce on active citizenship, who I have heard nothing about in a long time. But perhaps that is because one of my undergraduate lecturers was on the taskforce and naturally I don't hear from them anymore.

I do think Fine Gael probably has alot of potential coming through the ranks. I hate to go by the cliché but the friends of mine who were in Ógra were generally there for what they saw as career advancement whereas YFG had alot of very intelligent and very committed people, some of whom are standing in the local elections. Labour Youth always has the problem with radicalism which is unacceptable to the older party.

http://www.activecitizenship.ie/

Auditor #9 wrote:

Desktop publishing - how has it changed canvassing.

I thought I had already explained that there is a difference between canvassing and leaflet dropping. I am talking about the latter. Even back in the 1990s if you wanted to do a leaflet for a leaflet drop it was expensive and time-consuming, so expensive and time consuming that you did two at most. Today it can be done at the drop of a hat. A controversy erupts over the closure of a local school? Do a leaflet. Queues in the local hospital? Do a leaflet. It is dead easy. Anyone with quark can design a leaflet, you then bring it to your party's HQ on disk and the guys there print off as many you want, then you hire a local company to distribute it and bingo, its out.

I know it is that easy because I have done it. I know SFA about computers but I have access to a mac with quark (a very old version) and have done leaflets and advertorials for local candidates who are friends. One I did, an eight page tabloid advertorial, had 100,000 copies published and distributed partly by hired droppers and partly as a supplement in a local newspaper. It is dead easy - it has to be for me to be able to do it. I barely know how to use computers other than ms.word. But with a copy of quark xpress and a 'how to' book about using it I can design leaflets and magazines. (But don't ask me about complicated things like work out how much space is left on my computer, etc.

Parties use canvassers (those available who can walk!) from inside their organisation. But for leaflet drops unless they have a large Ogra/YFG/Labour Youth branch, or the candidate has 12 kids, they hire a dropping company.

Quote :

a Indeed even the internet itself is used by canvassers to promote their parties and it's undoubtedly effective as the Pin and P.ie of course have shown. Both have been named in the media as having influenced one thing or another - that's impressive, you have to say. EVen here cookie has been accused by Kev Bar of getting paid to post here ..

But that's the power of information by itself, I'm convinced. Don't try to persuade someone just give them the clearest picture of the facts as you can. If the facts are obviously muddied then tell them a tale, story, parable. Sometimes just one item of clothing can hold 10,000 words. Ahem.

So you reckon FG are really ramping up support something powerful while FF support is collapsing ? I think they deserve some salute for going on the road there recently and I think the likes of parties and rallies and meetings should be almost compulsory but as you say, young people just don't go to meetings and I know well what you mean by the age average at meetings - every one I go to I'm the youngest by ten years. Me and two other anoraks. It's like going to Mass.

I agree that parties are not over-run with young people. But FG has been attracting more young people, women and working class members than FF of late. Both sides joke about it. FG's working class support in the last election rocketed also while FF, which always had a large working class base, saw its working class base shrink. It is surprising but it is happening. Similarly in planning their 2009 Ard Fheiseanna FG has been faced with the problem of how big a venue does it need, while FF has been faced with the problem of how many normal attenders will bother to turn up. It is interesting, and suggests that the change in popularity in the polls though showing up sharply now has been developing under the surface for a while. Kenny fundamentally reformed FG internally and that paid dividends in terms of organisational strength, with some branches having notable increases in support (one inner city branch that had declined to 6 members by 2002 now has 17, the most that branch has had since the mid 80s) while FF, having had structural reforms done in the mid 1990s, has drifted.

The equivalent cumann to the FG branch mentioned above had 28 members in 2000. They now have 11. The numbers are known because they both use the same room over a pub to meet - on different nights obviously! - and I know the manager who deals with both chairmen. He is often behind the bar in that pub on the night they meet and has commented to the chairs and secretaries and how their organisation seems to be bigger or smaller than it used to be. Friends in both parties speak of the same phenomenon happening elsewhere. It isn't everywhere, but FF on the whole seems to be going down, and FG going up, and the national numbers in a newspaper article about 6 months ago did say that FF was losing members noticeably and FG overall was gaining numbers noticeably. FF HQ is talking about a radical restructuring of the party in Dublin, with suggestions that cumainn be abolished completely in the city while a number of FG branches that were planned to be abolished or merged now have enough members to survive and function. But in both young people are becoming scarcer and those that are involved are less likely than a decade or two ago to be available or willing to do 'knock and drops', hence the hiring of private firms to do it. (Though some private firms have scammed the parties. One on the outskirts of Dublin took money from FF, FG and Labour, and then bunged the leaflets from all three together in the doors at the same time!!! The parties were not pleased, at all. The last thing candidate X wants is to have candidate Y's leaflet arriving at exactly the same time, much less for Y's leaflet to be inside X's!

johnfás wrote:

Pretty much every organisation struggles in terms of volunteerism. There was a time when Bertie Ahern wanted one of his legacies to be a renewal of volunteerism. To that end he established the taskforce on active citizenship, who I have heard nothing about in a long time. But perhaps that is because one of my undergraduate lecturers was on the taskforce and naturally I don't hear from them anymore.

I do think Fine Gael probably has alot of potential coming through the ranks. I hate to go by the cliché but the friends of mine who were in Ógra were generally there for what they saw as career advancement whereas YFG had alot of very intelligent and very committed people, some of whom are standing in the local elections. Labour Youth always has the problem with radicalism which is unacceptable to the older party.

http://www.activecitizenship.ie/

That is quite true. I remember when I was involved in youth politics that Ógra FF did have a lot of people who wanted to run for election, or to work with TDs and ministers. You'd have Ógra meeting in one lecture theatre in college discussing campaigns and YFG meeting to debate issues. Most of the Ógra people I know ended up either in the council, the Dáil, the Seanad or working for MEPs or TDs. Very few YFG people I knew did. I actually cannot think of anyone from the group of YFG I knew who is is the Dáil or Seanad while two of the Ógra gang I knew are TDs, and 4 are advisors to someone or other.

There always seemed to be a lot of tension between Labour Youth and the senior party. Come to think of it, only 1 LY person I know is active in the senior party. The rest drifted away from politics.

Papal Knight wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

Desktop publishing - how has it changed canvassing.

I thought I had already explained that there is a difference between canvassing and leaflet dropping. I am talking about the latter.

cactus flower wrote:

Just as a footnote, ( appropriately ) one visit by a personal canvasser is worth x 1,200 leaflets (approx.).

I reckon that's as good a distinction as you 'll get if true. I was generally talking about a party getting the information out any way it can but having people who can sell their party are worth a fortune to it.

Quote :

Even back in the 1990s if you wanted to do a leaflet for a leaflet drop it was expensive and time-consuming, so expensive and time consuming that you did two at most. Today it can be done at the drop of a hat. A controversy erupts over the closure of a local school? Do a leaflet. Queues in the local hospital? Do a leaflet. It is dead easy. Anyone with quark can design a leaflet, you then bring it to your party's HQ on disk and the guys there print off as many you want, then you hire a local company to distribute it and bingo, its out.

I know it is that easy because I have done it. I know SFA about computers but I have access to a mac with quark (a very old version) and have done leaflets and advertorials for local candidates who are friends. One I did, an eight page tabloid advertorial, had 100,000 copies published and distributed partly by hired droppers and partly as a supplement in a local newspaper. It is dead easy - it has to be for me to be able to do it. I barely know how to use computers other than ms.word. But with a copy of quark xpress and a 'how to' book about using it I can design leaflets and magazines. (But don't ask me about complicated things like work out how much space is left on my computer, etc.

Parties use canvassers (those available who can walk!) from inside their organisation. But for leaflet drops unless they have a large Ogra/YFG/Labour Youth branch, or the candidate has 12 kids, they hire a dropping company.

You probably know little about excel or openoffice 'calc' so do you ? I need to graph some plots.

But there really is nothing like meeting real people to make an impression on you. I'm a bit surprised Lab / FG aren't making themselves more visible in order to capitalise on the current situation or is it too expensive to run those events or is it that ye just don't need to go out and make an effort now because support for ye is being created a lot by events or by perceived Governmental action / inaction ? Probably.

I suppose there's a horrible restriction on parties using tv or radio to promote themselves. Indeed, I can't remember the last Party advert I've heard ..

Papal Knight wrote:

johnfás wrote:

Pretty much every organisation struggles in terms of volunteerism. There was a time when Bertie Ahern wanted one of his legacies to be a renewal of volunteerism. To that end he established the taskforce on active citizenship, who I have heard nothing about in a long time. But perhaps that is because one of my undergraduate lecturers was on the taskforce and naturally I don't hear from them anymore.

I do think Fine Gael probably has alot of potential coming through the ranks. I hate to go by the cliché but the friends of mine who were in Ógra were generally there for what they saw as career advancement whereas YFG had alot of very intelligent and very committed people, some of whom are standing in the local elections. Labour Youth always has the problem with radicalism which is unacceptable to the older party.

http://www.activecitizenship.ie/

That is quite true. I remember when I was involved in youth politics that Ógra FF did have a lot of people who wanted to run for election, or to work with TDs and ministers. You'd have Ógra meeting in one lecture theatre in college discussing campaigns and YFG meeting to debate issues. Most of the Ógra people I know ended up either in the council, the Dáil, the Seanad or working for MEPs or TDs. Very few YFG people I knew did. I actually cannot think of anyone from the group of YFG I knew who is is the Dáil or Seanad while two of the Ógra gang I knew are TDs, and 4 are advisors to someone or other.

There always seemed to be a lot of tension between Labour Youth and the senior party. Come to think of it, only 1 LY person I know is active in the senior party. The rest drifted away from politics.

There is recurring conflict in Labour between radical youth and the old guard. "Entryist" groups go in, get active and then are driven out, and the young membership are dsillusioned. Their biggest problem, apart from politics, is that they are a middle aged party.