905 wrote:

Aragon wrote:

(On that point, because things are not going so well for Israel, did you know that they are now talking about the nuclear option of Gaza? Who forgot to tell you?) Obama does not want to be seen to have bloody hands though he too is in it up to his neck. An official narrative of Bush bad, Obama good is quite deliberately being cultivated so as to make the medicine go down more easily. Obama has earned himself the outrage of the Palestinian and Arab supporters who helped him win the election. They were utterly betrayed. Who forgot to tell you that?

Can I just ask, what is the nuclear option? Al Jazera haven't mentioned it on their website. And what is this about Obama betraying the Palestinians? If memory serves he was pro-Israeli through his campaign.

Aragon wrote:

Children were dying in the area of Jalaya within five minutes because of some poison gas that was dropped on them. ( Consistent with many medical reports that weapons are being tested on the population of Gaza)

I can't find any mention of this anywhere, apart from a vague comment on Media Lens Message board.

You know what 905? Do your your own reading and research. I can't be arsed to service your ignorance for you any longer. It's all out there for you to find out, if you really give a damn. But don't come on here making ill-onformed assertions based on a near total lack of information about what is happening. Your prejudices are not a substitue for the truth.

Aragon wrote:

905 wrote:

Aragon wrote:

(On that point, because things are not going so well for Israel, did you know that they are now talking about the nuclear option of Gaza? Who forgot to tell you?) Obama does not want to be seen to have bloody hands though he too is in it up to his neck. An official narrative of Bush bad, Obama good is quite deliberately being cultivated so as to make the medicine go down more easily. Obama has earned himself the outrage of the Palestinian and Arab supporters who helped him win the election. They were utterly betrayed. Who forgot to tell you that?

Can I just ask, what is the nuclear option? Al Jazera haven't mentioned it on their website. And what is this about Obama betraying the Palestinians? If memory serves he was pro-Israeli through his campaign.

Aragon wrote:

Children were dying in the area of Jalaya within five minutes because of some poison gas that was dropped on them. ( Consistent with many medical reports that weapons are being tested on the population of Gaza)

I can't find any mention of this anywhere, apart from a vague comment on Media Lens Message board.

You know what 905? Do your your own reading and research. I can't be arsed to service your ignorance for you any longer. It's all out there for you to find out, if you really give a damn. But don't come on here making ill-onformed assertions based on a near total lack of information about what is happening. Your prejudices are not a substitue for the truth.

You're one to talk about prejudice. I ask you to back something up because for all the life of me I can't find it anywhere; I don't know where you get your cherished truths from. I waste my time loking for confirmation for this stuff and I find nothing. I seriously thought you would at least provide a source. Youngdan gives me that much. If I make an ill-informed assertion you prove it to be such.

905 wrote:

Aragon wrote:

905 wrote:

Aragon wrote:

(On that point, because things are not going so well for Israel, did you know that they are now talking about the nuclear option of Gaza? Who forgot to tell you?) Obama does not want to be seen to have bloody hands though he too is in it up to his neck. An official narrative of Bush bad, Obama good is quite deliberately being cultivated so as to make the medicine go down more easily. Obama has earned himself the outrage of the Palestinian and Arab supporters who helped him win the election. They were utterly betrayed. Who forgot to tell you that?

Can I just ask, what is the nuclear option? Al Jazera haven't mentioned it on their website. And what is this about Obama betraying the Palestinians? If memory serves he was pro-Israeli through his campaign.

Aragon wrote:

Children were dying in the area of Jalaya within five minutes because of some poison gas that was dropped on them. ( Consistent with many medical reports that weapons are being tested on the population of Gaza)

I can't find any mention of this anywhere, apart from a vague comment on Media Lens Message board.

You know what 905? Do your your own reading and research. I can't be arsed to service your ignorance for you any longer. It's all out there for you to find out, if you really give a damn. But don't come on here making ill-onformed assertions based on a near total lack of information about what is happening. Your prejudices are not a substitue for the truth.

You're one to talk about prejudice. I ask you to back something up because for all the life of me I can't find it anywhere; I don't know where you get your cherished truths from. I waste my time loking for confirmation for this stuff and I find nothing. I seriously thought you would at least provide a source. Youngdan gives me that much. If I make an ill-informed assertion you prove it to be such.

You're on ignore for me from hereon. Work out your own ignorance - only leave the dead of Gaza and Palestine some respect and dignity. Do your own work, like I said. ALL of the nformation you need is out there if you really wanted tp know about it - Ive posted many things here already that prove what I've said. I fyou choose to ignore them, that's your problem.

Quote :

905 wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

There have been veiled threats of use of nuclear weapons from the beginning 905. I just posted regarding an opposition politician calling for a "Japanese" solution as in WWII on the Black September thread.

By veiled threats do you mean they have not ruled them out? I haven't heard any, and such threats would be too contradictory for such a well-oiled propaganda machine. I can't find your fellow on the black September thread, there is an awful lot there. By nuclear weapons are we talking about bombs here, nuking the Gaza strip? That's completely impractical.

cactus flower wrote:

Is anyone here seriously disputing that there are abominable crimes being committed? UNWRA want them investigated as do the Red Cross and they are the ones up close to the results of them.

I presume the Israelis dispute the allegation. Looking impartially at it, which I suspect would not involve lots of pictures of blood infants, it can be very hard to find evidence of deliberate targeting of civilians. Proportionality is a relative term, as is how much care one takes to avoid civilian casualties. The last would be the charge they are most open to. In the interests of balance, has there been any talk of war crimes allegation being brought againsty Hamas? Not differentiating between civilians and troops, and human shields would be the main charges I think.

cactus flower wrote:

RTE isn't much better, and the Israeli Ambassador refused to come and do a prearranged interview this evening for Drivetime. They expect a free ride. If I didn't have internet and France 24/ Al Jazeera and Presstv, I wouldn't have a clue what was going on. You could see the WP raining down behind journalists day after day without them mentioning it.

The big lie, that Israel are doing this because Hamas out of the blue broke the ceasefire is being perpetuated, even though the facts to the contrary have been admitted on air by Israeli spokesmen.

I thought they were douing this because, after the ceasefire ran its course, Hamas carried out their usual attacks. The whole issue of the ceasefire and who broke it is open to debate, but in the current case is a bit of a red herring.

cactus flower wrote:

Do you think Aragon is exaggerating? Given what you know about what is happening, if she was, would it matter?

Truth is the first casualty, you know that. Of course it matters.

cactus flower wrote:

White phosphorus btw is a chemical that can be fatal to adults if inhaled.

I didn't know that. Is it only adults it is fatal to, Aragon mentioned children. And it doesn't fit with what he said about testing weapons. Some other stuff, about high-density explosives does.

Unlike Aragon, I am going to reply. I think your post is disingenous. You had no difficulty in finding half a dozen references to the banning of the arab politicians so I know you can do a search. There are plenty of links already on this site to substantiate everything in my post. All you have to do is read the threads. On the Black September thread you'll find a post on the weaponry being used. If you have eyes in your head and you watch television, you can see it. You previously attempted to dismiss the possibility that white phosphorus was being used when it is clearly visible in every other tv image of Gaza. If you want to see what white phosphorus and associated fire does to children, have a look at the video Auditor posted on the Webcam thread, if it hasn't been removed again by Youtube.

You are aware I assume that one shipload of US arms came into Gaza in November and it included "innovative weapons" including bunker buster bombs. There is more posted in the Black September thread on the weaponry being brought in from Greece: the posts are in consecutive order, so it shouldn't be difficult to find a post relating to today.

3 Israeli civilians have died, and 1,000 Palestinians, half of whom are women and children. 20-30,000 thousand are homeless and half a million without running water. Their university, parliament house police, schools have been bombed and they are fenced in with no air raid shelters and no possibility of escape. "Proportionality" under these circumstances is very strange word to use.

Cactus - others - you ma be interested in this piece from The Telegraph. It makes for intersting reading about the 'Peace Envoy', Gaza and its gas:

Quote :

Gaza doesn't need aid: it has a £2bn gas field
By Tim Butcher


Worldstage

International donors will - again - gather next month to pledge money for the Palestinians.

This time France hosts the Palestinian panhandling circus, but the same chorus that for years has argued aid will help solve Palestinian grievances will be heard once more.

Tony Blair, in his job as international envoy to the Palestinians, will look earnest and speak publicly about the importance of the world providing financial support.

But instead of checking into their smart Parisian hotels, donors would do better to come to Gaza to help free a Palestinian economic asset so large that it would do away with the need to bleed the international community of millions in aid every year.

Twenty miles from the beaches of Gaza, too far for the eye to see but still very much in Palestinian waters, lies a fortune in untapped, off-shore gas. Prospecting vessels sent down two probes seven years ago and what they found got the juices of executives from multinational fuel companies flowing. In one field alone, experts estimated a reserve of £2 billion worth of natural gas. And there is plenty of potential for other fields.

A similar discovery in the Persian Gulf would have been exploited promptly and, within a few years, millions of pounds in taxes would have begun pouring into the local government's coffers. But Gaza is not on the Gulf and the development of the Gaza Marine field remains trapped in the web of mutual hostility between the Palestinians and Israelis.

So complete is Israel's control of the vestigial Palestinian state that, for years, the Jewish state was able to block development of the field. Back then, the plan was for the Gaza gas to be sold to Egypt, but this was during the second intifada, when the prime minister, Ariel Sharon, said there was no way he would allow a project to grow that would earn money for Yasser Arafat.

Things have moved on some: Arafat is dead, Sharon remains in a stroke-induced coma and a ceasefire of sorts ended the intifada. Ironically, the pointy-heads in the Israeli government, the ones responsible for plotting the future, also changed their tune.

Instead of Egypt buying Gaza's gas in the future, it suddenly began to make sense for Israel to become the purchaser: Israel's indigenous gas fields - north of the Gaza Marine field - could run out within a few years and the only other long-term source will be a pipeline from neighbouring Egypt.

At first sight, this appears a win-win situation. The Palestinians would have a guaranteed purchaser for their gas, one that would generate £50 million a year for 15 years in tax revenues, and provide the foundation for sustainable economic growth. And the Israelis would have a secure source of affordable gas to underwrite their economy's growth. It would also neatly show how two historic enemies could come to rely on each other for economic prosperity.

A negotiating team, led by Nigel Shaw from British Gas, the company that bought the rights to develop Gaza Marine, duly moved into an office block in a smart Israeli coastal town and prepared to draw up the various legal documents and guarantees that are standard in the international gas and oil industry.

But in spite of public statements from Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, that he supports the project, and even the intervention of Gordon Brown, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, who identified the deal as key to the development of the Palestinian economy, negotiations have not budged.

Approaches made by The Daily Telegraph to key Israeli government stakeholders - the National Infrastructure ministry and Prime Minister's Office - have resulted in similar statements about "negotiations progressing" and "final agreements being imminent", but industry insiders have revealed that, in reality, no agreement is in sight.

There were some Israeli concerns that the gas money might end up in the hands of Hamas, but they were dealt with last year, when a trust fund was set up that ensured international cash goes only to the Palestinian government appointed by Mahmoud Abbas, president of the Palestinian national authority and leader of Fatah.

If Mr Blair is serious about his mission to help develop a sustainable Palestinian economy, he could put his weight behind getting the Gaza gas project off the ground. So far, he has set his sights a bit lower, talking publicly only about redeveloping a sewage plant in Gaza and cautiously dodging attempts to involve him with Gaza Marine.

Unless he shows a bit more courage, one fears next month's donor conference for the Palestinians will not be the last.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643848/Gaza-doesnt-need-aid-it-has-a-2bn-gas-field.html



"Tony Blair has so far avoided putting his weight behind the Gaza Marine field project"

Things haven't quite worked out like they could have, have they?

905 you took part in threads where this was already pointed out, yet you now act up your soi disant naievety as if you're not aware of it.

Despite this, and in the spirit of the site charter, I've put together this helpful post for you and others. Enjoy.

With resepect to who started the Gaza invasion and the ongoing massacre.

Israel broke the ceasefire when it launched a raid into Gaza on November 4, killing six people. On November 5, the Guardian reported:

"A four-month ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza was in jeopardy today after Israeli troops killed six Hamas gunmen in a raid into the territory.

"Hamas responded by firing a wave of rockets into southern Israel, although no one was injured. The violence represented the most serious break in a ceasefire agreed in mid-June, yet both sides suggested they wanted to return to atmosphere of calm." (Rory McCarthy, 'Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen,' The Guardian, November 5, 2008; http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008 /nov/05/israelandthepalestinians )

Meanwhile, since 2001, 5,000 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli strikes over the same period prior to the current Israeli offensive - a figure fast approaching 6,000.

from here.
https://machinenation.forumakers.com/general-history-f4/an-eye-for-an-eyelash-the-gaza-massacre-part-1-t1831.htm
http://www.medialens.org/alerts/index.php
http://www.medialens.org/alerts/09/090112_an_eye_for.php

Israel is not responding to Hamas's rockets given the reality that Israel and the IDF initially broke the truce by invading Gaza and killing civilians.

Israel's Mark Regev, one of Ehud Olmert's senior spokespersons was skewered by an Australian Channel 4 'More 4' journalist last week.
Regev agreed that Hamas had not fired any rockets during the ceasefire, a de facto admission that it was Israel who broke the truce.

Watch the video clip from the link below,
tamuchly.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/regev-more4.wmv

http://tamuchly.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/regev-more4.wvx

Also,in the youtube video clip below, Imran Garda interviews Yuval Steinitz (- 04 Jan 09) on AlJazeera English. Steinitz lets it slip that Israel planned this attack 9-6 months ago (this admission is about 10 1/2 minutes in) .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoqZgrVcFjM

cactus flower wrote:

Unlike Aragon, I am going to reply. I think your post is disingenous. You had no difficulty in finding half a dozen references to the banning of the arab politicians so I know you can do a search. There are plenty of links already on this site to substantiate everything in my post. All you have to do is read the threads. On the Black September thread you'll find a post on the weaponry being used. If you have eyes in your head and you watch television, you can see it. You previously attempted to dismiss the possibility that white phosphorus was being used when it is clearly visible in every other tv image of Gaza. If you want to see what white phosphorus and associated fire does to children, have a look at the video Auditor posted on the Webcam thread, if it hasn't been removed again by Youtube.

You are aware I assume that one shipload of US arms came into Gaza in November and it included "innovative weapons" including bunker buster bombs. There is more posted in the Black September thread on the weaponry being brought in from Greece: the posts are in consecutive order, so it shouldn't be difficult to find a post relating to today.

3 Israeli civilians have died, and 1,000 Palestinians, half of whom are women and children. 20-30,000 thousand are homeless and half a million without running water. Their university, parliament house police, schools have been bombed and they are fenced in with no air raid shelters and no possibility of escape. "Proportionality" under these circumstances is very strange word to use.

Proportionality is a playword for lawyers. What you or I think (and my opinion is none of your business) and what the law says are two different things.

I don't question the use of cluster bombs. I think they said they were using them on tunnels or something. I don't remember dismissing the use of phosphorous, however feel free to prove me wrong on that one. I might have wanted independent confirmation, I don't watch much telly and wouldn't have known phosphorous if I had seen it.

I'm being serious, I've googled nuclear weapons and gaza and it comes up with nothing apart from guff about Iran. If I haven't read the Bl;ack September posts it's my own fault.

Perhaps the anti Israel lobby look into their hearts and their beliefs emerge that way. However I would be extremely skeptical about nuclear weapons being used on Gaza by the IDF, let alone anyone else.

If that's wrong, those who spread this idea around that nukes will be used are sages. Otherwise, it is a major piece of scaremongering designed to create even further hate for Israel in the Irish blogosphere, if that were possible. The Israeli government has done a good enough job itself to create ill will for itself and its people over the last long while.

[quote="Pax"]905 you took part in threads where this was already pointed out, yet you now act up your soi disant naievety as if you're not aware of it.

Despite this, and in the spirit of the site charter, I've put together this helpful post for you and others. Enjoy.

With resepect to who started the Gaza invasion and the ongoing massacre.

Israel broke the ceasefire when it launched a raid into Gaza on November 4, killing six people. On November 5, the Guardian reported:

"A four-month ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza was in jeopardy today after Israeli troops killed six Hamas gunmen in a raid into the territory.

"Hamas responded by firing a wave of rockets into southern Israel, although no one was injured. The violence represented the most serious break in a ceasefire agreed in mid-June, yet both sides suggested they wanted to return to atmosphere of calm." (Rory McCarthy, 'Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen,' The Guardian, November 5, 2008; http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008 /nov/05/israelandthepalestinians )

Meanwhile, since 2001, 5,000 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli strikes over the same period prior to the current Israeli offensive - a figure fast approaching 6,000.

from here.
https://machinenation.forumakers.com/general-history-f4/an-eye-for-an-eyelash-the-gaza-massacre-part-1-t1831.htm
http://www.medialens.org/alerts/index.php
http://www.medialens.org/alerts/09/090112_an_eye_for.php

Israel is not responding to Hamas's rockets given the reality that Israel and the IDF initially broke the truce by invading Gaza and killing civilians.

Israel's Mark Regev, one of Ehud Olmert's senior spokespersons was skewered by an Australian Channel 4 'More 4' journalist last week.
Regev agreed that Hamas had not fired any rockets during the ceasefire, a de facto admission that it was Israel who broke the truce.

Watch the video clip from the link below,
tamuchly.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/regev-more4.wmv

http://tamuchly.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/regev-more4.wvx

Also,in the youtube video clip below, Imran Garda interviews Yuval Steinitz (- 04 Jan 09) on AlJazeera English. Steinitz lets it slip that Israel planned this attack 9-6 months ago (this admission is about 10 1/2 minutes in) .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoqZgrVcFjM[/quote]
Thank you for your thoughtfulness, however the truce was broken long before Nov 4th. Wiki has a page I'm inclined to trust link. You should like it, it says the Israelis kind of started it. What I'm concerned with is what happened after the ceasefire period came to an end on the 19th of December. Hamas, under no ceasefire obligations, fired rockets, and Israel fired back. Talk of who started what is of no interest to me, it doesn't make a difference to the fighting and killing on the ground.

That's one issue, one I'm not that interested in. I want to know about the poison gas attacks (though Cactus Flower has filled me in somewhat on that), I want to know about Obama's betrayal and I want to know about the nuclear option.