Metro North: The Pros and Cons

Slim Buddha wrote:

Kate P wrote:

While planners can't be overturned on planning itself, they can still be overturned on zoning because zoning is a reserved function of the councillors. It's not rosy in the garden now either, despite the demise of Section 4.

THat is what I meant to say, Kate. The machinery which enables corruption is still in place. The apparatus for palm-greasing is still in place.

At the end of the day, we have to elect people we trust. We trust politicians with big decisions all the time. Perhaps a recall system, as suggested by the anarchists here, would help.

The Irish planning system gives very little authority to elected representative and a lot to unelected bureaucrats. They too can be corrupted. There was very little development for decades and the amount of damage a lot of unplanned development could do was not understood by the public and councillors. I think that both have learned from the mistakes and that more rather than less democracy in planning would be a good thing. Councillors react to public feeling, and at the end of the day are more responsive than paid officials in secure jobs. Also they often have more long term vision, and they are comitted to the one place whereas officials move around the whole time.

The nature of the boom meant we had an influx of planners with basic training ( a two year Masters with only about 8 weeks on design training and no urban design skills) thrown in at the deep end to deal with anything and everything. The average age of planners went down to about 27, with only a few experienced and skilled senior planners - engineers ran planning outside Dublin up to ten years ago. Some very bad decisions were made but overall there was also great work done by many and a lot of experience accumulated. We are now seeing the mistakes of four or five years ago built. Poor planners - it is often a thankless task. Nobobdy ever looks at a street and says "that was a great planning refusal you recommended five years ago - you saved the street.

[quote="alan"]

cactus flower wrote:

allah wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Split out from the Eastern Bypass Thread
https://machinenation.forumakers.com/local-and-regional-f21/dublin-bay-motorway-returns-t1799.htm
--Audi

eoinmn wrote:

Lunacy.
We're starved of public transport in Dublin but we'll piss away a few billion on a motorway already served by the M50 and a network of city streets.
Yes, I know there is congestion, but building more roads won't solve that.

CF, what have you got against Metro North?

Hello eoinmn, Internet Exp is shutting down for me at the moment so I can't provide links, but some of the issues are

1. planning - no cost benefit analysis or comparison with other options
2. enormous cost - 5-10 billion est plus 2 billion est. disruption
3. devastation of Stephens Green
4. lack of capacity - not much more than a Luas, not a true Metro
5. route - the route goes through Drumcondra, North City, which has an incredibly low population density. One stop has only a couple of hundred houses in walking distance - all of these houses are in cycling distance of the City Centre. The route is not viable so they are trying to make it so by overdevelopment of Swords.
6. Starting point - How many people need to go from Stephens Green to the airport? If it was going to be built it should link from Heuston.

What would you do for public transport if you had 10 billion - I'll be back to make some suggestions

[mod]snipped - please read the charter and post in line with it, personal insults are not acceptable. If you reedit your post again to include the insult action will be taken[/mod]
there have IN FACT, been 2 (that's TWO) CBAs done for MN.
One for the RPA and one for the Oireachtas Transport Committee.

SECOND, the capital cost of MN is approx 3 Billion. not the 5-10 that you dreamed up and is used by as disinformation by the anti rail lobby. The mortgage type repayments will total to approx 5 billion.

Thirdly, by whose definition is MN not a 'PROPER' metro. Yours obviously. More tripe from our transport 'expert'.
MN will have a capacity of 20,000 passengers per direction per hour, compared to 5,000 for LUAS.

Still, thanks for the entertainment. A long search would have to be made to find a more uninformed tract of guff anywhere.

Your tea is in the signing in thread. You're welcome, but I suggest you contact an Admin about changing your name, which would be felt as offensive by many people.

You obviously have a passion for this project: why not make the case for it in a positive way: people on this site have been known to change their minds when provided sound argument and evidence.

I don't know why your arguing about the costing, as you give 5 billion yourself not including 2 billion disruption. This type of project with tunnelling is notoriously subject to cost and damages overrun.[/

But it looks like this is going on the back burner, yes, and will stay there unless it passes a cost benefit analysis proposed by the Minister next year.

Quote :

By Ciaran Byrne and Paul Melia

Quote :

Tuesday October 07 2008

DUBLIN'S €3.7bn Metro North rail system is going ahead -- but Transport Minister Noel Dempsey can't say when.

Mr Dempsey yesterday qualified his backing for the huge project saying the system would only be built if it came though a stringent cost-benefit analysis next year.

The minister also raised the spectre of lengthy delays, saying the Transport 21 plan would "be an even better idea in three or four years when we move out of recession".

He admitted money was not there for other transport schemes included in the National Development Plan (NDP). Some projects could now face postponement or the chop.

"The procedure is, and always was, that once the tenders are there, there would be negotiations and the final price would be decided at that stage," he said. "It will get its usual appraisal, value for money, cost benefit analysis and if it meets those, it will go ahead.

"That's the way it was, that's the way it is, and that's the way it will be."

The minister was speaking at the launch of airline CityJet's new €6m hangar at Dublin airport, a project he said underlined the need to plan for the future.

But he appeared to hedge his backing of Dublin's future transport needs, as speculation continues that Metro North from St Stephen's Green to Swords could fall victim to the State's collapsing finances.

In August, before the full extent of the credit crisis became apparent, Finance Minister Brian Lenihan met with the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) -- which is overseeing the project -- to say Metro North would go ahead.

Informed sources said the Government wanted to send out the message that the project would go ahead so the four bidders would submit the best price.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/metro-north-is-still-on-track-but-theres-no-time-of-arrival-1491664.html

I have a busy day, but I'll be back to respond to your other points in due course.

do you believe all the speculation you read in the paper?
or just the stuff you want to believe?

inaccurate and lazy jounalism. like the BP's complaint about cut and cover in O'C St, draining the liffey etc.
MN will go ahead early next year.
you cannot rely on what jounalists garbled understandings.
I'm done with this subject btw.

I trust you're wrong about it going ahead. Dempsey has a record of involvement with costly turkeys.

Quote :

The Irish planning system gives very little authority to elected representative and a lot to unelected bureaucrats. They too can be corrupted. There was very little development for decades and the amount of damage a lot of unplanned development could do was not understood by the public and councillors. I think that both have learned from the mistakes and that more rather than less democracy in planning would be a good thing. Councillors react to public feeling, and at the end of the day are more responsive than paid officials in secure jobs. Also they often have more long term vision, and they are comitted to the one place whereas officials move around the whole time.

Hmmm. Being responsive to public feelings is not necessarily a good thing - because it means that by default they are only one vote away from losing power. There are councillors with considerable vested interests in where lands are zoned and what becomes of those lands. Quite apart from that, there are litanies of decisions made by councillors that go against what is wanted by the locals.

There were over 6,000 submissions against Greystones marina and while I'm not sure whether it was councillors or the council who made the decision there, it still sucks and isn't in the best interests of the locals.

Kate P wrote:

Quote :

The Irish planning system gives very little authority to elected representative and a lot to unelected bureaucrats. They too can be corrupted. There was very little development for decades and the amount of damage a lot of unplanned development could do was not understood by the public and councillors. I think that both have learned from the mistakes and that more rather than less democracy in planning would be a good thing. Councillors react to public feeling, and at the end of the day are more responsive than paid officials in secure jobs. Also they often have more long term vision, and they are comitted to the one place whereas officials move around the whole time.

Hmmm. Being responsive to public feelings is not necessarily a good thing - because it means that by default they are only one vote away from losing power. There are councillors with considerable vested interests in where lands are zoned and what becomes of those lands. Quite apart from that, there are litanies of decisions made by councillors that go against what is wanted by the locals.

There were over 6,000 submissions against Greystones marina and while I'm not sure whether it was councillors or the council who made the decision there, it still sucks and isn't in the best interests of the locals.

And given that the reputation of councillors of the largest party in the country is tainted big-time, there is always an element of suspicion that, when something like Greystones occurs, palms were greased and envelopes were stuffed. This may not have been the case, but this was accepted custom and practice for decades. The main opposition party had their own black sheep (but not a whole flock of them). the impression one is left with is that planning in Ireland is corrupt.

Back to cyclingfor a minute (which is I believe MN biggest con).

Take Lucan which is 12 km out of Dublin city centre (along lucan road). At 10 km an hour you will be in town faster than most cars during rush hour provided that you have a dedicated cycle road/path/lane segragrated from the car road (separated because Irish road users would abuse it and try to use it as another lane). Lucan is pretty far out. How many people live inside Lucan? Surely investing in a cycle network (remember mopeds can also use cycle lanes if they are made big enough) is a far more cost effictive solution to Dublins transport problems and many dedicated lanes could be built for the cost of MN. MN will only serve one area.

riven wrote:

Back to cyclingfor a minute (which is I believe MN biggest con).

Take Lucan which is 12 km out of Dublin city centre (along lucan road). At 10 km an hour you will be in town faster than most cars during rush hour provided that you have a dedicated cycle road/path/lane segragrated from the car road (separated because Irish road users would abuse it and try to use it as another lane). Lucan is pretty far out. How many people live inside Lucan? Surely investing in a cycle network (remember mopeds can also use cycle lanes if they are made big enough) is a far more cost effictive solution to Dublins transport problems and many dedicated lanes could be built for the cost of MN. MN will only serve one area.

Just imagine what you could do for cyclists with a couple of billion

This is what your office car park could look like



Saving on costs would be massive as much less wear and tear on roads, buildings would be cleaner, fewer people with lung and heart disease....


Would need showers as well. They could be built in little pavilions here and there, rather than trying to get them into every work place.

riven wrote:

Back to cyclingfor a minute (which is I believe MN biggest con).

Take Lucan which is 12 km out of Dublin city centre (along lucan road). At 10 km an hour you will be in town faster than most cars during rush hour provided that you have a dedicated cycle road/path/lane segragrated from the car road (separated because Irish road users would abuse it and try to use it as another lane). Lucan is pretty far out. How many people live inside Lucan? Surely investing in a cycle network (remember mopeds can also use cycle lanes if they are made big enough) is a far more cost effictive solution to Dublins transport problems and many dedicated lanes could be built for the cost of MN. MN will only serve one area.

An area that needs something a bit more than a third world public transport system.

In fairness the NorthSide has nothing lads. DiddlySquat, Zilch, nada, SFA ..

except the Finglas bus which i can't remember the number of now.

The whole bicycle side of things would be worth applying across the entire city too with the showers included. I used to cycle to work when I lived there and everyone thought I was mad. Two hours less on the road each day, fitness, a self-financing bike and more freedom were the advantages.

More cycle lanes wouldn't go astray and the weather wasn't so bad either.

Slim Buddha wrote:

riven wrote:

Back to cyclingfor a minute (which is I believe MN biggest con).

Take Lucan which is 12 km out of Dublin city centre (along lucan road). At 10 km an hour you will be in town faster than most cars during rush hour provided that you have a dedicated cycle road/path/lane segragrated from the car road (separated because Irish road users would abuse it and try to use it as another lane). Lucan is pretty far out. How many people live inside Lucan? Surely investing in a cycle network (remember mopeds can also use cycle lanes if they are made big enough) is a far more cost effictive solution to Dublins transport problems and many dedicated lanes could be built for the cost of MN. MN will only serve one area.

An area that needs something a bit more than a third world public transport system.

Bertie tweaked to route to his front door, Slim Buddha. 5-10 billion is more than its worth to anybody. You could buy everyone out who lives along the route and they could afford to retire to the South of France.

cactus flower wrote:

Slim Buddha wrote:

riven wrote:

Back to cyclingfor a minute (which is I believe MN biggest con).

Take Lucan which is 12 km out of Dublin city centre (along lucan road). At 10 km an hour you will be in town faster than most cars during rush hour provided that you have a dedicated cycle road/path/lane segragrated from the car road (separated because Irish road users would abuse it and try to use it as another lane). Lucan is pretty far out. How many people live inside Lucan? Surely investing in a cycle network (remember mopeds can also use cycle lanes if they are made big enough) is a far more cost effictive solution to Dublins transport problems and many dedicated lanes could be built for the cost of MN. MN will only serve one area.

An area that needs something a bit more than a third world public transport system.

Bertie tweaked to route to his front door, Slim Buddha. 5-10 billion is more than its worth to anybody. You could buy everyone out who lives along the route and they could afford to retire to the South of France.

I agree that that's a problem. We have a ludicruous attitude to property in Ireland. Article 43 doesn't help that at all.

Slim Buddha wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Slim Buddha wrote:

riven wrote:

Back to cyclingfor a minute (which is I believe MN biggest con).

Take Lucan which is 12 km out of Dublin city centre (along lucan road). At 10 km an hour you will be in town faster than most cars during rush hour provided that you have a dedicated cycle road/path/lane segragrated from the car road (separated because Irish road users would abuse it and try to use it as another lane). Lucan is pretty far out. How many people live inside Lucan? Surely investing in a cycle network (remember mopeds can also use cycle lanes if they are made big enough) is a far more cost effictive solution to Dublins transport problems and many dedicated lanes could be built for the cost of MN. MN will only serve one area.

An area that needs something a bit more than a third world public transport system.

Bertie tweaked to route to his front door, Slim Buddha. 5-10 billion is more than its worth to anybody. You could buy everyone out who lives along the route and they could afford to retire to the South of France.

I agree that that's a problem. We have a ludicruous attitude to property in Ireland. Article 43 doesn't help that at all.

I really think buses are the answer for Dublin, because its too spread out for rail lines to serve most people. The present bus fleet is not at all suitable. There should be no double deckers without conductors, absolutely no smoking or drinking on board. Buses need to run every 8 minutes minimum or people won't wait, and there could be dry, heated bus shelters with accessible ramps onto the buses, and real time display of waiting time to next bus, like on metros.

I watched an item on a woman in Kenya who runs a massive bus company and all the buses are ****blinged***** and pimped with flat screen telly and fabulous decor. I think this is the back of one of them. We should get rid of the monopoly, let a thousand flowers bloom, and then if there are any gaps left in services fill them with subsidised buses.

Sorry that the bus image is almost life sized.

So how much is metronorth gonna cost between you and alan disputing it violently cactus ? if it's 10 billion then it can stay as a drawing. I know they already spent 38 million on some drawings of it.

Music on buses might be a start. They have the radio playing on Cork buses or perhaps you are able to hear it. Get rid of the horrible double-deckers too - they're treacherous for everyone.

Buses could be the answer or part of it - and they only need a few big cans of paint for the roads too. A great temporary solution.

There's more to Metro North than meets the eye.

FF, Bailey brothers and Anglo in lucrative Metro deal - Today's Tribune
John Downes, News Investigations Correspondent

Quote :

Controversial Fianna Fáil supporters and wealthy property developers Tom and Michael Bailey are in line for a multimillion-euro payday if the Metro North project goes ahead. They have also had a number of dealings with Anglo Irish Bank in recent years regarding lands in Swords located along the proposed Metro line, a Sunday Tribune investigation has established.

In a revelation likely to prompt renewed criticism of the links between Fianna Fáil and major property developers, the brothers and companies associated with them have acquired significant land interests, at times involving the use of Anglo funds, next to two stops on the proposed Metro North line in north Co Dublin.

The lands, at a site known as Barrysparks next to the Airside retail park in Swords, and more recently at Lissenhall in Swords, are located in prime positions near to the proposed Metro North stops for Swords and Lissenhall.

Industry experts say even in the current economic climate the value of these lands is set to soar as a result of any government decision to approve funding for the multibillion-euro project.

As an oral hearing by An Bord Pleanála into Metro North gets underway tomorrow in Croke Park, documentation obtained from the RPA reveals it has identified about a dozen tracts of land in Swords which have strong links to the Bailey brothers, and which it may need to acquire to enable the Metro North to proceed.

The lands are either part-owned or part-occupied by the brothers individually, their company Bovale Developments Ltd or a company known as Balheary Properties Ltd. Balheary shares a registered address with Bovale at No 59 Fitzwilliam Square.

Attempts to contact the Bailey brothers to discuss the lands were unsuccessful.

In two submissions lodged with the planning board last autumn, seen by the Sunday Tribune, the developers strongly support the proposed Metro North route and repeatedly stress its importance to their plans for development of lands they are involved with at Lissenhall and Barrysparks.

March 1, 2009

The Metro North route meanders through the leafy Drumcondra suburbs - a route said to have been directly influenced by Bertie Ahern. There are hardly any prospective passengers there and this is the justification for an enormous increase in the population of Swords. Of course the chances of more than a minority of the new Swords residents actually using the Metro to commute to Stephens Green is pretty small to non-existant. It is more likely that the M50 roundabout accessing our main airport will be clogged up with their cars.

There is neither a financial nor transport justification for sinking billions of public money into this route.