Bertie for President

ceacg wrote:

Is there no end to the damage the goverment is going to allow her to do? Between this nonsense and Bertie for President, I dont know what the world is coming too.

Bertie for President? Don't want to start at thread on that do you by any chance?

cactus flower wrote:

ceacg wrote:

Is there no end to the damage the goverment is going to allow her to do? Between this nonsense and Bertie for President, I dont know what the world is coming too.

Bertie for President? Don't want to start at thread on that do you by any chance?

Why not? Do we really want to know just how bad the mental health situation is here though?

Well, it would be one way of testing the waters...

Depending on the Tribunal Report... and that is a big variable... Ahern probably will be the next President if he wants it. I won't vote for him of course but it is the reality.

johnfás wrote:

Depending on the Tribunal Report... and that is a big variable... Ahern probably will be the next President if he wants it. I won't vote for him of course but it is the reality.

I very much doubt it. He is simply too dodgy. Too many unanswered questions. Too many question marks hanging over him still. And remember, he was Taoiseach for 11 years and was forced from office in a fog of corruption just before the economy vapourised. His mishandling of the economy, in particular, wont be soon forgotten.

I also sincerely doubt he would be elected. A more decent individual ran for FF in 1990, recieved the highest number of first preference votes in the history of the state and still didn't get elected.

He was dodgy before the election yet still Fianna Fáil managed to win the election. Anyone I know from Drumcondra knew that the 'Drumcondra Mafia' as they now like to brand themselves were a motley crew for a very long time yet he still topped the poll on many occasions. Historians may remember him for the reasons you outline yet when I pick up the paper I read all about the mess Cowen and Lenihan have got us into... strange given that it was more Ahern and McCreevy, which Cowen latterly, who really got us into this mess. Ahern did mismanage the economy, but the popular consensus is against Cowen, not Ahern.

I think people, myself included, can often delude ourselves regarding Irish politics. You have to look at the core data facts. Everyone knew we were in a bubble about to burst before the last election. People worked themselves into a frenzy that Fianna Fáil were going to fall from grace and a new Government would be formed with Ahern shown up by the electorate, at least, to be a liability. It didn't happen though.

That says, if the Tribunal Report is damning, which it may well be - he won't stand a chance.

I hope he does not get it and that he and his delusions will go and hide in a corner forever more.

Slim Buddha wrote:

johnfás wrote:

Depending on the Tribunal Report... and that is a big variable... Ahern probably will be the next President if he wants it. I won't vote for him of course but it is the reality.

I very much doubt it. He is simply too dodgy. Too many unanswered questions. Too many question marks hanging over him still. And remember, he was Taoiseach for 11 years and was forced from office in a fog of corruption just before the economy vapourised. His mishandling of the economy, in particular, wont be soon forgotten.

I HOPE YOUR RIGHT.

cactus flower wrote:

Well, it would be one way of testing the waters...

True.

Bertie is going to go for it... He's been putting out leaks by his "friends" since he left office.....

It's funny to watch, he's out of the spotlight and hates it....

the corruption charges have closed alot of doors for him in Europe and US....

And yes if there was an election for it tommorow he would probably win it....

the funniest was he would "relish" the challenge of the current economic crisis....Don't we still pay him to serve us and wouldn't his "friend" Brian Cowen love to have an great wisdom that would get us out of this mess.... strange days indeed...

But people love him.... and that is the nature of democracy

I would welcome him there, powerless and as a dis-credit for a superflous institution which might actually hasten its welcome abolishion.
Fine Gael should be proud of never having provided a first citizen. Irish heads of states going back to the English Monarchs have proven themselves to be of absoluely no worth at all in service to the people of Ireland. I say that, despite the fact that it must be recorded that Mary Robinson and Paddy Hillary served as best they could, but it is an office which has no honour in it at all.

Visting heads of states (from less enlightened countries) can be met by delegations from the Dail or the Senate. Its all a waste of money anyway. Republicans should have nothing to do with heads of state.

Quote :

Its all a waste of money anyway. Republicans should have nothing to do with heads of state.

Vive la Republique... except the French have one.

I would think that having it done on a rota from the "fit retired" would do: no extra fee, just rent free occupation of the Aras. And why do we need Farmleigh and the Aras?

The Tribunal Report, at an educated guess, will be very bad for Ahern, but the question is how the Report is smokescreened/deflected. If it is unsuccessful, he won't go near the Park. If it works, he's in with a fighting chance. If he gets it, I'll be out of this country as soon as. Not because the President has any powers, just because of what it would say about the people. I'd be too ashamed.

cactus flower wrote:

Quote :

Its all a waste of money anyway. Republicans should have nothing to do with heads of state.

Vive la Republique... except the French have one.

I would think that having it done on a rota from the "fit retired" would do: no extra fee, just rent free occupation of the Aras. And why do we need Farmleigh and the Aras?

Indeed but France, like so many, is a republic in name only (eg like the chinese and the former DDR)!

Respvblica wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Quote :

Its all a waste of money anyway. Republicans should have nothing to do with heads of state.

Vive la Republique... except the French have one.

I would think that having it done on a rota from the "fit retired" would do: no extra fee, just rent free occupation of the Aras. And why do we need Farmleigh and the Aras?

Indeed but France, like so many, is a republic in name only (eg like the chinese and the former DDR)!

How would you define a true republic? are there current examples?

As always a dictionary - Thing of the People ')

Surely we cannot, even if we wish to, say that Bertie Ahern is not representative of at least some of
the people who reside in the state - Irishicus Cutehoreicus....


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/republic

re·pub·lic

r whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president. A nation that has such a political order. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them. A nation that has such a political order. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them. A nation that has such a political order. often Republic A specific republican government of a nation: the Fourth Republic of France. An autonomous or partially autonomous political and territorial unit belonging to a sovereign federation. A group of people working as equals in the same sphere or field: the republic of letters. [French république, from Old French, from Latin rēspūblica : rēs, thing; see rē- in Indo-European roots + pūblica, feminine of pūblicus, of the people; see public.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the Engl

cactus flower wrote:

Respvblica wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Quote :

Its all a waste of money anyway. Republicans should have nothing to do with heads of state.

Vive la Republique... except the French have one.

I would think that having it done on a rota from the "fit retired" would do: no extra fee, just rent free occupation of the Aras. And why do we need Farmleigh and the Aras?

Indeed but France, like so many, is a republic in name only (eg like the chinese and the former DDR)!

How would you define a true republic? are there current examples?

One where all the citizens are equal stakeholders in the state and have equal constitutional status - in reality and not just in theory. Its diametrically opposed to the corporate state where social partners and the big boys make all the decisions. In a republic you shouldnt have to belong to any group or be especially wealthy. The right of appeal, dissent in normal conditions. To acheive this in reality we need separation and a balance of power. Its the commonwealth, so there is a dynamic between the good of teh many and the rights of the individual. One thing though it has to avoid is disunity and maintain a common purpose.

Switzerland is a great example for democracy. As to being a true republic, I imagine it would be close, but am not sure.

Switzerland is very much a confederation and not a republic. It is very democratic and very much a "one-off". I doubt if this model could possibly be exported. Certainly not to Ireland.

toxic avenger wrote:

The Tribunal Report, at an educated guess, will be very bad for Ahern, but the question is how the Report is smokescreened/deflected. If it is unsuccessful, he won't go near the Park. If it works, he's in with a fighting chance. If he gets it, I'll be out of this country as soon as. Not because the President has any powers, just because of what it would say about the people. I'd be too ashamed.

As would lots of people. It was bad enough when he was Taoiseach. I fear Johnfas may be right though. There seem still to be just enough gombeens left in this country with a proclivity for glorifying chancers and dissemblers to mean that Bertie could get in. I'm often trying people out about him just to see has anything filtered through and disgustingly there are still many who will say stuff like 'ah sure, god love him, he wasn't the worst of them!" or comparable crap of that general sort. It's not statistically sound evidence of course but it keeps me fretting at night. What will this report say - if it doesnt give him the kick in the seat of his pants that he so richly deserves, that will be another incentive to depart these shores.

But there may be a silver lining in the very black cloud that has settled on us all. Some people are hoping that the scale of the economic collpase and all that flows from it may finally cause people to cop themselves on and confront the fact that the cute hoor stuff is not funny any more - that it never was, in fact. The era of the Fianna Fail 'corrupt culchie' (as someone on the other place put it) may be approaching its end. If the economic collapse achieves that outcome there might be a case for saying it was worth it. (I don't really mean that, but it would definitely be a considerable source of consolation.)

Slim Buddha wrote:

Switzerland is very much a confederation and not a republic. It is very democratic and very much a "one-off". I doubt if this model could possibly be exported. Certainly not to Ireland.

Well you could say its a confederal republic, where the powers are appointed to the confederation by the cantons and commune?

I disagree that it is a once off. A hundred years ago europe was run by monarchs, and a century before that most of them ruled with absolute power. The current situation in Ireland is one to which we have adapted to, but one that does not exactly suit us either (given that in most of 80 years of independence we have been on our knees).

I say that we should be vigilant and observant about what is going on elsewhere including switzerland(and conversly what has happened in the past). We should be ruthless as a people, in not simply accepting what are ruler have deigned suitable for us, but working in a felxible evolvable system(another important aspect of a republic) with always the same goal - that the people are sovereign and the form of state is a republic with all the citizens as equal stakeholders.

Actually I think its rather sad that most people in this country(politcians) dont have any real conception about what it means to have a republic. For many its just about not having a royal family.

In the light of our history, with the treaty of 21, the troubles etc, I think its more than sad. Its an absolute disgrace that politcians are not discussing the meaning of the Republic on a daily basis. Theres a conspiracy of silence on democracy and republicanism. As far as I am concerned this is stuff that should be treated as "religion".

Respvblica wrote:

Actually I think its rather sad that most people in this country(politcians) dont have any real conception about what it means to have a republic. For many its just about not having a royal family.

In the light of our history, with the treaty of 21, the troubles etc, I think its more than sad. Its an absolute disgrace that politcians are not discussing the meaning of the Republic on a daily basis. Theres a conspiracy of silence on democracy and republicanism. As far as I am concerned this is stuff that should be treated as "religion".

Given that the majority of our politicians are a rabble of porcine plonkers, it is hardly surprising that they don't discuss the meaning of a Republic among themselves. Comparing expenses reports is as intellectual as it gets.

Ahern would probably be unelectable. He would get basic FF support and some independent votes, but not enough to win on the first round and whoever was second placed would get block transfers from everyone else to ensure Ahern was beaten. The only way he would be elected is in a two-horse race, but there are enough independents to guarantee in any race a third (and probably fourth) candidate. Ahern would run into the same problem as Lenihan - an 'anyone but him' transfer pattern to keep him out.

Yeah I can't see him getting it. All labour and FG would have to do is agree on a compramise candidate which would surely attract enough support to nughe him out. And thats if his populatity hasn't been affected by the mahon tribunal and a re-thinking of his years as taoiseach. I'd personally like to see him run and fail to get elected but to be honest wouldn't care too much if he did get it. He'd be harmless as president.