Pilger sets out the facts and the history with excoriating precision and detail. There is no point in me summarising what he says here - he says it too well himself:

http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=519

Aragon wrote:

Pilger sets out the facts and the history with excoriating precision and detail. There is no point in me summarising what he says here - he says it too well himself:

http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=519

Don't always agree with Pilger, but recommend reading this.

Not enough about the US role and why the billions of dollars backing though.

"Hamas: the only democratically elected Arab government in the Middle East": is that true?

cactus flower wrote:

Aragon wrote:

Pilger sets out the facts and the history with excoriating precision and detail. There is no point in me summarising what he says here - he says it too well himself:

http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=519

Don't always agree with Pilger, but recommend reading this.

Not enough about the US role and why the billions of dollars backing though.

"Hamas: the only democratically elected Arab government in the Middle East": is that true?

Absolutely.

Pilger has set himself the target of exposing the rationale for what Israel is doing at the moment - that's the big lie that the media are feeding from with appalling acquiescence while children are dying even as we type these messages. He clearly wants to do something to try and redirect the public gaze away from what a friend of mine calls 'the permanent bullshit blizzard' about what is happening right now - to weigh in as powerfully as he can in the hope that it will help in the effort to give the Israelis pause and that lives might thereby be saved. So the focus in this piece is on them and the present invasion. The US role is a whole other article to do it justice but Pilger has never tired of writing about the poison that is the US influence in the Middle East and especially as it relates to Palestine. I'm sure he will do so again in relation to this attack. I dont agree with every word he says either but he is one of the worlds most powerful and persuasive truth tellers for all that - there are very few in the mainstream who compare to him.

There is a truth in this that Israel did take and continues to take Palestinian land.

But there is a missing, which I find in a lot of these article and a lot of my friends who are passionate about this issue, what I and it's a personal opinion find is a flaw.

No-one can doubt the plight of the Palestinians but if these triggers exist just to drag Palestine into a conflict they cannot win and into a situation where they lose even more land. Why do the Palestinians re-act? Throwing rockets at Israel is a futile exercise.

We know from our own history, as the smaller party you got to act smart. Take away the missiles....throw a few shapes that recognising Israel could only be part of a peace deal.. and Hamas are in a better position to get action on the real issues such as expansion of the settlements and a state.

The Destruction of Israel is only condemning their people to another 50 odd years of oppression. They will nuke it before giving it back. But for many Arab countries.. Palestine is a useful distraction from their own shortcomings.....and yeah a successful democratic Hamas lead Palestine....

Most Palestinians voted for them not because of the anti-Israel but because of Fatah's corruption..
there was an opportunity to engage when they were elected but good ole George Bush had the "war on terror" which of course the Israeli's are using with glee to support their own agenda.

A lot of Hamas's vote is because they successfully provided schools, a university, police services, clinics and so on. The whole lot, including the Parliament and admin buildings is being bombed flat. It would be a bit like England bombing all the NDP projects so that FF wouln't win the next election.

They are opposed to any education for Palestinians. This is genocide, destruction of a culture and a people. You meet Palestinian doctors all over the place, great people. It is the same as with Iraq - the museum was one of the first things to go.

It is barbarism.

I agree with you that the rockets are not worth it. Hamas stopped the rocket attacks in the cease fire and imprisoned people from other factions who they caught using rockets. As the Israelis were ready to invade, they would have found some excuse or let a few off themselves. At the end of the day, its all they have got and it looks like they are using them now to open up a second front.

A political movement across the arab states and calling for international support would be the best way, in my view, but I'm not there.

Interesting discussion on France 24 - saying the Gaza assault will finish off Sarkozy's Mediterranean Union. Its an ill wind blows nobody any good, and the US would not have been keen on French / EU influence extended in this direction.

I agree that objectively the Hamas rockets do not seem to be serving the Palestinians well - beyond giving expression to much justified rage and anger. When I was at the march in Cork last weekend a Palestinian academic at UCC said 'my chest is boiling with rage'. All of the Palestinians there were clearly immensely distressed. We havent been living with it - havent felt the consequences of repeatedly being treated so appallingly. It's probably inappropriate - to impose the dispassionate logic of people emotionally and geographically distant from all of this terrible history. And yet international condemnation of Hamas amounts to exactly that - even now when the murderous motives of Israel are so overwhelmingly apparent and their methods so grotesque, commentators time and again seek to place Hamas alongside Israel as an equal and opposite party to the conflict. In fact, right at the moment, the rockets are serving some purpose in terms of self defence because they have drawn a ground offensive which the Israeli's are fearful of. This has reduced the loss of life in Gaza, though it hasn't stopped it.

Clare Short was on Aljazeera English in the middle of the night, last night and I thought she put it well when she said that Israel has been behaving as if it was completely drunk on its own power and immunity from censure. The West and the US in particular have helped create a world-peace shattering monster in Israel. This offensive is making it abundantly clear. It may seem horribly trite but I sincerely hope that all of these deaths might have served the valuable purpose of finally exposing the illegitimacy of what Israel has been doing all along.

i'd rather israel acting "drunk on its own pwer in immunity" than any of her neighbours. i.e if hamas were in the position the idf are in now, do you for one minute think that there would be an israeli alive in the ME today?

the best solution would be for the UNSC to demilitarise the 200 square miles around jerusalem. i'm sure the yanks won't support that, but 100% sure that the russians & chinese won't stand for the surrounding countries being demilitarised also.

I'm not disagreeing with or disputing Israels intentions... or justifying their actions....

If there is no thought behind this or if it's merely an election stunt....
I think it will backfire..... But I can't but help think that they are setting themselves up for a strong negotiation stance new reality Obama regime.... (Note I'm not agreeing with their actions....)

May be completely wrong.....

This is destruction of a culture.... but if we start on the blame game it is a destruction triggered by a European war and a European reaction to a situation which gave no credence what so ever to the people who then lived in Palestine...

I don't once again justify shitting on someone else because you've been shat on But most of the people who yell blue murder at Israel refuse to see their own cupability in the crime.

Aragon wrote:

We havent been living with it - havent felt the consequences of repeatedly being treated so appallingly. It's probably inappropriate - to impose the dispassionate logic of people emotionally and geographically distant from all of this terrible history.And yet international condemnation of Hamas amounts to exactly that
- even now when the murderous motives of Israel are so overwhelmingly
apparent and their methods so grotesque, commentators time and again
seek to place Hamas alongside Israel as an equal and opposite party to
the conflict.

I am not saying that I don't understand their rage, their anger and desire to at least hit back in some way....

But I'm a firm believer in winning the war.... not the battle...

What I was saying is that many people who talk about this ignore the fact that your have a responsibility to whatever cause you are supporting not to let your emotions get in the way of the game.

Without suicide bombings .. without Rocket attacks .....the focus would shift to the real issue which is the unfairness of the situation the Palestinians are in..... And many of the Palestinian's "friends" don't want peace....it suits their agenda... just like Northern Ireland at war suited the English until it came to London.

I can only hope this is the last roar of the hawks and sanity will prevail but it won't bring back any of the Palestinian's that have died this week....

When you look at Pligers report... my re-action is why the hell isn't John Pilger such a good friend of the Palestinian's yelling from the top of every building not about Israel who we know are wrong... but about
Palestinians - "DONT REACT TO THE TRIGGERS".

scribe wrote:

Aragon wrote:

We havent been living with it - havent felt the consequences of repeatedly being treated so appallingly. It's probably inappropriate - to impose the dispassionate logic of people emotionally and geographically distant from all of this terrible history.And yet international condemnation of Hamas amounts to exactly that
- even now when the murderous motives of Israel are so overwhelmingly
apparent and their methods so grotesque, commentators time and again
seek to place Hamas alongside Israel as an equal and opposite party to
the conflict.

I am not saying that I don't understand their rage, their anger and desire to at least hit back in some way....

But I'm a firm believer in winning the war.... not the battle...

What I was saying is that many people who talk about this ignore the fact that your have a responsibility to whatever cause you are supporting not to let your emotions get in the way of the game.

Without suicide bombings .. without Rocket attacks .....the focus would shift to the real issue which is the unfairness of the situation the Palestinians are in..... And many of the Palestinian's "friends" don't want peace....it suits their agenda... just like Northern Ireland at war suited the English until it came to London.

I can only hope this is the last roar of the hawks and sanity will prevail but it won't bring back any of the Palestinian's that have died this week....

When you look at Pligers report... my re-action is why the hell isn't John Pilger such a good friend of the Palestinian's yelling from the top of every building not about Israel who we know are wrong... but about
Palestinians - "DONT REACT TO THE TRIGGERS".

The logic of what you say is impeccable scribe. But it aint how people work and it sure as hell is not the way the Israelis are working. We have to understand the logic of the situation from within - and what people are coping with on the ground. Right at the moment, quite frankly, Hamas have a duty to fire on Israel if only to try to prevent it from killing more children and other people. I would find it very hard to stand still while some took aim at my children in the name of resisting violence. This is what the international community is requiring of the Palestinians right now - and it has been requiring it for 60 years, what is more.

Quote :

Without suicide bombings .. without Rocket attacks .....the focus would shift to the real issue which is the unfairness of the situation the Palestinians are in

Suicide bombings were unheard of until recent years. A suicide bomb was recently used in Iraq against pro Palestinian demonstrators. It took conditions of protracted and desperate misery and frustration before they emerged as a tactic. Personally I think they are a wrong tactic in every way, they hurt ordinary people not responsible for the problems and are open to exploitation by "false flag" operators. But they are the result of a situation not created by the Palestinians. How much were people bothered about the unfairness over all the years of this?

Over 1,000 Palestinian children have been killed by the Israelis since the year 2,000 and illegal settlements have been persistently extended. The Red Cross said today that they had been prevented by Israeli soldiers for three days from going to fetch injured people and children who were with their dead mother and were starving.

I think there must be a lot of Israelis and supporters of Israel who would be horrified by what is happening, but I can't see that its possible tobe neutral. There are definitely many millions of Arabs who are looking hard at their governments and who won't forget that they allowed this to happen.

Suicide bombs and rocket attacks stop me from supporting Hamas in this. I do not agree with radical Islamism and I do not support the aims of Islamists. Israel may well have a case to answer for heavy handed tactics but I support both Israel and Palestine's right to exist without being subject to attack from the other.

Ronald Binge wrote:

Suicide bombs and rocket attacks stop me from supporting Hamas in this. I do not agree with radical Islamism and I do not support the aims of Islamists. Israel may well have a case to answer for heavy handed tactics but I support both Israel and Palestine's right to exist without being subject to attack from the other.

What about the Gazan Palestinians who would like to stay alive? Do you support them?

Ronald Binge wrote:

Suicide bombs and rocket attacks stop me from supporting Hamas in this. I do not agree with radical Islamism and I do not support the aims of Islamists. Israel may well have a case to answer for heavy handed tactics but I support both Israel and Palestine's right to exist without being subject to attack from the other.

So where is your objection to the crazed zionist fundamentalism that the Israelis are currently engaged in? Why do you single Hamas out and require standards of them which have never been required of Israel - not even in this current atrocity. You accuse Hamas and the Palestinians of being guilty of defending themselves from atrocious treatment by Israel - throughout the 60 year history of their illegal,vioent seizure and expulsion of the Palestinians from their own lands. It seems as though you will only condemn Israel if the Palestinians will agree to die and/or be dispossessed without protest.

I refer you both to my previous answers. Nothing I have read in John Pilger's piece or anywhere else has made me change my mind. I do not believe that either rockets or suicide bombs are self defence. I also refer you to my comments about Israel's heavy handed tactics. I reiterate that I support the immediate existence of a Palestinian state on Gaza and the West Bank secure from attack.

As before, please read what I have said before either jumping down my throat or jumping to conclusions not supported by what I have said. Thanks.

Quote :

Quote :

Suicide bombs and rocket attacks stop me from supporting Hamas in this. I do not agree with radical Islamism and I do not support the aims of Islamists. Israel may well have a case to answer for heavy handed tactics but I support both Israel and Palestine's right to exist without being subject to attack from the other.

-I refer you both to my previous answers. Nothing I have read in John Pilger's piece or anywhere else has made me change my mind. I do not believe that either rockets or suicide bombs are self defence. I also refer you to my comments about Israel's heavy handed tactics. I reiterate that I support the immediate existence of a Palestinian state on Gaza and the West Bank secure from attack.

I'm not asking you to agree with Hamas or radical Islam. We agree, I think, that both peoples have a right to some where to live in safety, and also that rockets and suicide bombs amed at civilians are wrong and I presume, that illegal settlements, shootings of demonstrators including many children, crushing of houses, dispossessing people of land and water are wrong.

Hamas is willing to enter talks on a ten year cease fire, Pilger's article said. The Israelis ended a 6 month cease fire that had been maintained by Hamas.

I'm not sure how much you are seeing of what is going on there at the moment Ronald Binge.
What is going on in Gaza surely doesn't come under any "heavy handed tactics" category? Every State in the Security Council bar the US has called for the Israeli attack to stop. The Red Cross and the UN who are neutral bodies have condemned Israeli conduct to civilians that is outside international law. France 24 has reported this morning that the UN say that Israeli soldiers evacuated 100 civilians, including little babies, into a building that proceeded to repeatedly shell, with 30 people dead. These people were not firing any rockets. The UN says this is one of the worst incidents to have taken place.

Ronald Binge, wake up and smell the decomposing bodies.

John Ging, and Irish man who is currently UNWRA Director of Operations in Gaza was on Al Jazeera English television last night. He could barely contain his anger. He described how over several days his workers had carefully cooperated with the Israelis about their work - giving detailed accounts of where they were going and what they were planning to do, including GPS coordinates so that the IDF would know exactly who they were and what they were doing. On each occasion, having made their way from safety into the places they needed to go to, they ended up being fired on by the same Israeli army units they had coordinated with. The day before yesterday one of their workers was killed in exactly these circumstances. The UN have now pulled their relief workers which is exactly what the Israelis want. Ging has said that it is now down to Israel to sort this out but that he cannot put his workers out into the field in these circumstances, though they were prepared to take reasonable risks, they were not prepared to put themselves in the way of being shot at deliberately.

Alex Thomson has reported on Channel 4 on how Red Cross Workers were forced by the Israelis to abandon their ambulance and take a donkey and cart about one mile to where they found starving children, too weak to stand, laying beside their dead mothers - and other injured people lying around with no assistance of any sort from the Israelis. Many people have died unnecessarily like this.

Here is Thompson taking the Israeli Prime Minister's spokesman to task about it:

http://www.tamuchly.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/AT_MR.wvx

As before, in these circumstances Hamas are more or less obliged to fight this band of murdering invaders - and they have been murdering invaders for 60 years now. The original wrong will never go away, never be righted by burying Palestinians in US funded fire power - or indeed in protraying Israel's long-suffering victims as terrorists. If we are going to talk about fundamentalist Islam, then we need also to put right into the dock beside it the raving zionist fundamentalism that has been the source of this decades old conflict.

This equation is worth repeating again and again:

terrorist = someone who defends themselves against violent western attacks

defence = violently attacking people who have resources or territory that we want but which they won't give us for free

Virtually every war waged by the west conforms to this principle - with few exceptions - WW2 being an exception (though within that there was some nasty dealing at the end, too).

PS - look out in particular for Ghida Fakhry, Correspondent, Riz Khan, News Anchor and Marwan Bishara, Senior Political Analyst on Al Jazeera. Their reports on the UN Resolution leave the BBC and others in the dunces corner - and have exposed how the US, UK and France have hijacked the resolution process to secure an unimpeded way for Israel to finish its vicious, colonialist campaign in Gaza.

You could in many ways look at the situation in Palestine as a continuation of WWII.

Well, as above, not really Cactus. It's more like a consequence of it - in part a collective need on the part of the west to assuage itself of its guilt over what happened to the Jews - by determining the Palestinians as the 'new Jews' and doing unto them as was done unto the Jews in Germany.

cactus flower wrote:

You could in many ways look at the situation in Palestine as a continuation of WWII.

ww2 was a continuation of ww1 by that mark!

aragon,

i think thats a little simplistic. quite simply the only solution is a demilitarised zone enforced by the UN for, say, 500km around jerusalem.

palestinians are not the new jews as evidenced by

zakalwe wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

You could in many ways look at the situation in Palestine as a continuation of WWII.

ww2 was a continuation of ww1 by that mark!

Actually I worked this out right back once ... and it goes all the way back to .....God!....

After all the Romans exported to Europe.. who then had the Holocost.. who exported back to Palestine....
But God's the person who exported them from Egypt and told them to kill anyone in their way....

Nice...

A Cup of Chrisitianity for anyone?

Aragon wrote:

The logic of what you say is impeccable scribe. But it aint how people work and it sure as hell is not the way the Israelis are working. We have to understand the logic of the situation from within - and what people are coping with on the ground. Right at the moment, quite frankly, Hamas have a duty to fire on Israel if only to try to prevent it from killing more children and other people. I would find it very hard to stand still while some took aim at my children in the name of resisting violence. This is what the international community is requiring of the Palestinians right now - and it has been requiring it for 60 years, what is more.

I agree... and Ireland had revolutions for 800 years till we figured out not to fight in the open

When the revolution comes it will not be logical

But since neither Palestinians or Israeli's have anywhere else to go.. the answer is to either anahilate one or figure out how to get them to live together fairly What's your solution?

scribe wrote:

zakalwe wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

You could in many ways look at the situation in Palestine as a continuation of WWII.

ww2 was a continuation of ww1 by that mark!

Actually I worked this out right back once ... and it goes all the way back to .....God!....

After all the Romans exported to Europe.. who then had the Holocost.. who exported back to Palestine....
But God's the person who exported them from Egypt and told them to kill anyone in their way....

Nice...

A Cup of Chrisitianity for anyone?

Believe it or not you can hear exactly that point of view daily on Israel National Radio. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/

They really believe the God of the Bible gave them the right to annilate the "philistines" as they call them. Of course that fact that the bible is mythology for which even the Israeli archaelogists have had to admit there is no factual basis, is of no interest to these people who believe that Gods miracles are the reason they lose so few citizens to the Hamas rockets while the IDF can kill hundreds of "philistines". I'm not exagerating here. This is what they broadcast on a daily basis.

imokyrok wrote:

scribe wrote:

zakalwe wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

You could in many ways look at the situation in Palestine as a continuation of WWII.

ww2 was a continuation of ww1 by that mark!

Actually I worked this out right back once ... and it goes all the way back to .....God!....

After all the Romans exported to Europe.. who then had the Holocost.. who exported back to Palestine....
But God's the person who exported them from Egypt and told them to kill anyone in their way....

Nice...

A Cup of Chrisitianity for anyone?

Believe it or not you can hear exactly that point of view daily on Israel National Radio. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/

They really believe the God of the Bible gave them the right to annilate the "philistines" as they call them. Of course that fact that the bible is mythology for which even the Israeli archaelogists have had to admit there is no factual basis, is of no interest to these people who believe that Gods miracles are the reason they lose so few citizens to the Hamas rockets while the IDF can kill hundreds of "philistines". I'm not exagerating here. This is what they broadcast on a daily basis.

If you are suggesting that this is what my admittedly short post was saying, you could not be more wrong and nowhere was it suggested in the post. To say I am put out is to put it mildly.