Nobody is advocating discrimination
against gays on this site and getting away with it; and rightly so.
So why is this movie, playing in American theatres, allowed take shot
after shot at the Irish community in SF?




Dan White, as portrayed wholly
inaccurately , is a closet gay reflecting the needs of his
Neanderthal Irish constituents. The truth is vastly more complex; see





http://www.sfweekly.com/2008-01-30/news/white-in-milk/1




If an Irish filmmaker was to take
potshots like that at gays, the movie would be boycotted and/or
banned.

erigena wrote:

Nobody is advocating discrimination
against gays on this site and getting away with it; and rightly so.
So why is this movie, playing in American theatres, allowed take shot
after shot at the Irish community in SF?




Dan White, as portrayed wholly
inaccurately , is a closet gay reflecting the needs of his
Neanderthal Irish constituents. The truth is vastly more complex; see





http://www.sfweekly.com/2008-01-30/news/white-in-milk/1




If an Irish filmmaker was to take
potshots like that at gays, the movie would be boycotted and/or
banned.

Interesting and sad story Erigena. Has the film been released? The SF article is talking about a script at draft stage.

As usual, reality seems to be a lot messier than myth.

I dislike the trend for fictionalised "reality" whether in films or books.

I very much doubt it would be banned.

If it painted a picture of the Irish that way it wouldn't be wholly inaccurate. The Irish community in the US are notorious for being extremely homophobic and racist and particularly so in the 1970s. I am so often amused to meet Irish Americans when they come to Ireland. So many of them are horrified at seeing non-White people in Ireland and many of them are speechless with shock when they find that Ireland is about to allow civil registration for gay relationships. One relative of mine who was a FF supporter and fundraiser in the US quit in disgust when he heard that Bertie Ahern opened Outhouse, a gay resource centre in Dublin. He wants homosexuality recriminalised.

That is the most disgusting thing I have read on this site ever.

An Outhouse is a lavatory or a shithouse. Why would gays call to mind that they ingage in anal intercourse which is most fowl to the minds of many and expressly forbidden by most religions. I think they hang lads for getting up to tomfoolery like this in the Middle East. In Ireland too when the get to a majority.

Then the poor gays will really be in the Outhouse/Shithouse for sure.

Papal Knight wrote:

... The Irish community in the US are notorious for being extremely homophobic...

youngdan wrote:

That is the most disgusting thing I have read on this site ever.

An Outhouse is a lavatory or a shithouse. Why would gays call to mind that they ingage in anal intercourse which is most fowl to the minds of many and expressly forbidden by most religions. I think they hang lads for getting up to tomfoolery like this in the Middle East. In Ireland too when the get to a majority.

Then the poor gays will really be in the Outhouse/Shithouse for sure.

HMMM....

I have said it before, I could not give a shythe if they ride and fist one another to death and till their arms fall off. I don't mind a lad being queer as long as he does not ask me for money.

eh YD?!

Re the film itself, it hasn't been released yet this side of the Atlantic, I don't think, so none of us can really comment on it yet. I look forward to seeing it. It's a story worth telling and timely in light of the recent Prop 8 vote.

Atticus wrote:

eh YD?!

Re the film itself, it hasn't been released yet this side of the Atlantic, I don't think, so none of us can really comment on it yet. I look forward to seeing it. It's a story worth telling and timely in light of the recent Prop 8 vote.

Has this film even been made yet? Its far from clear in the OP.

yehbut_nobut wrote:

Papal Knight wrote:

... The Irish community in the US are notorious for being extremely homophobic...

youngdan wrote:

That is the most disgusting thing I have read on this site ever.

An Outhouse is a lavatory or a shithouse. Why would gays call to mind that they ingage in anal intercourse which is most fowl to the minds of many and expressly forbidden by most religions. I think they hang lads for getting up to tomfoolery like this in the Middle East. In Ireland too when the get to a majority.

Then the poor gays will really be in the Outhouse/Shithouse for sure.

HMMM....

I guess, yehbut, we could call youngdan's post 'exhibit A'.

I don't think he can pass a thread mentioning homosexuality without finding some way of mentioning anal sex and fisting.

Unfortunately his pre-occupations are all too typical of a large body of the Irish-American community where paranoia about gays (and Blacks) are part of the course. Historically the fear of Blacks could be explained. The Irish post-famine started off at the bottom rung of 'free' (non-slave) society. After emancipation free Blacks challenged the Irish for many of the menial jobs. (The same fear is said to explain why working class communities are more racist generally - it is their jobs that may be lost to new entrants so it generates fear.) Even when Irish-Americans rose to middle class, negative attitudes towards Blacks had been inherited though stereotypes learnt from parents and grand-parents. The Kennedys were the subject of a lot of criticism in the 1960s in Irish-America for their closeness to Black leaders like MLK. The Irish attitudes towards Blacks is one of the reasons why the Irish community, but particularly the blue collar Irish, proved one of the most difficult groups for Obama to win over and why Blue collar workers in general, but Irish-American Blue collar in particular, were so solidly Clinton.

BTW young dan maybe you may think of toilets when you hear the word 'Outhouse' but few Irish people in Ireland do these days. It is called 'Outhouse' simply because it is the place where many people when they come out first go to to meet people at social functions, join clubs or in its coffee shop. It was originally located in a Georgian house on the south side where it was opened by the President of Ireland, and for the last decade has been located in an eighteenth century Georgian house in Capel Street, where the new property was opened by the then taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, TD. As it is a listed building, state funding is provided to help in its restoration and upkeep. It has absolutely nothing to do with what you think an 'outhouse' is and you are the first I have ever heard making that link. (But in your case it is to be expected. As usual you decided for no justifiable reason whatsoever to introduce a reference to 'fisting' into a thread about a film. You seem pre-occupied with it.)

cactus flower wrote:

Atticus wrote:

eh YD?!

Re the film itself, it hasn't been released yet this side of the Atlantic, I don't think, so none of us can really comment on it yet. I look forward to seeing it. It's a story worth telling and timely in light of the recent Prop 8 vote.

Has this film even been made yet? Its far from clear in the OP.

Yes it is made and tipped to win big in the Oscars. It has won some rave reviews.

[quote="Papal Knight"]

yehbut_nobut wrote:

Papal Knight wrote:

... The Irish community in the US are notorious for being extremely homophobic...

youngdan wrote:

That is the most disgusting thing I have read on this site ever.

An Outhouse is a lavatory or a shithouse. Why would gays call to mind that they ingage in anal intercourse which is most fowl to the minds of many and expressly forbidden by most religions. I think they hang lads for getting up to tomfoolery like this in the Middle East. In Ireland too when the get to a majority.

Then the poor gays will really be in the Outhouse/Shithouse for sure.

HMMM....

Quote :

I guess, yehbut, we could call youngdan's post 'exhibit A'.

I don't think he can pass a thread mentioning homosexuality without finding some way of mentioning anal sex and fisting.

Unfortunately his pre-occupations are all too typical of a large body of the Irish-American community where paranoia about gays (and Blacks) are part of the course. Historically the fear of Blacks could be explained. The Irish post-famine started off at the bottom rung of 'free' (non-slave) society. After emancipation free Blacks challenged the Irish for many of the menial jobs. .)(The same fear is said to explain why working class communities are more racist generally - it is their jobs that may be lost to new entrants so it generates fear Even when Irish-Americans rose to middle class, negative attitudes towards Blacks had been inherited though stereotypes learnt from parents and grand-parents. The Kennedys were the subject of a lot of criticism in the 1960s in Irish-America for their closeness to Black leaders like MLK. The Irish attitudes towards Blacks is one of the reasons why the Irish community, but particularly the blue collar Irish, proved one of the most difficult groups for Obama to win over and why Blue collar workers in general, but Irish-American Blue collar in particular, were so solidly Clinton.

quote]

Is the Irish American homophobia not something to do, at least in part, with the influence of the Church? I don't know much about relations between the Irish and black people in the 19th century US, but what evidence do you have that working class communities are more racist? Personally I would think that the middle class is more racist, and this was born out to some extent by what canvassers (Edo here included) in the Treaty referendum said.

cactus flower wrote:

Is the Irish American homophobia not something to do, at least in part, with the influence of the Church? I don't know much about relations between the Irish and black people in the 19th century US, but what evidence do you have that working class communities are more racist? Personally I would think that the middle class is more racist, and this was born out to some extent by what canvassers (Edo here included) in the Treaty referendum said.

There is racism across the classes but it is more notable among working class areas. I have lived in middle class and working class areas and found it in both, but it was more violently expressed in the latter. As the middle class are more likely to vote they are more likely to raise the issue (or any issue) with canvassers. Often in working class areas canvassers are less likely to have people discuss general issues with issues raised more local and community (fixing paths, stop signs, etc).

As to Irish-American homophobia and racism - yes the Church plays a part but remember in large areas the Catholic Church in the US was itself Irish-American so both re-enforced and reflected community prejudice. And of course there is the irony that so many senior Catholic leaders are themselves gay and in the closet. Two of the most notoriously homophobic Church leaders were Cardinals Cushing and Spellman of Boston and New York, yet both's sexuality was well known. (They were supposedly both transvestites who went to parties in drag thinking no-one would recognise them. They were nicknamed Mary and Martha!) Spellman was postumously outed for having a sexual relationship with a man in the chorus of a Broadway musical.

It is you who always talks about fisting but we will let it slide.

I have nothing against gays and most definitely have nothing against blacks. MLK was a hero but fat Teddy Kennedy is a stain on history

Papal, I hate to introduce reality to you but very few gives a bollox what you get up to in your spare time.

Have you ever been to the States. Everyone here knows an outhouse is a shithouse. I know you know little about America but surely the gays knew that an outhouse is a shithouse.

Why did they call their building a shithouse.

youngdan wrote:

Have you ever been to the States. Everyone here knows an outhouse is a shithouse.

What relevance is that to a Community Centre in Dublin? Or anywhere in Ireland, for that matter?

Isn't there a book called 'How the Irish became White' by a black academic which deals with the issue of American-Irish rascism. Basically their bigotry was a response to the inequalities they themselves faced on arrival in a new country. Seems reasonable to me in a way but unfair to single out the Irish when surely it was common among all new arrivals to america - and of course they were only following well established attitudes.

I guess though the controversy over the St Patrick's Day parades and the AOH in NY has helped re-enforce this stereotype of homophobic Irish. Any Stereotype is bread and butter in hollywood

Ask Papal, it is him who is ranting about Irish American steriotypes, now he is church bashing and what has that to do with the shithouse either

shutuplaura wrote:

Isn't there a book called 'How the Irish became White' by a black academic which deals with the issue of American-Irish rascism. Basically their bigotry was a response to the inequalities they themselves faced on arrival in a new country. Seems reasonable to me in a way but unfair to single out the Irish when surely it was common among all new arrivals to america - and of course they were only following well established attitudes.

I guess though the controversy over the St Patrick's Day parades and the AOH in NY has helped re-enforce this stereotype of homophobic Irish. Any Stereotype is bread and butter in hollywood

Now there you have it

shutuplaura wrote:

Isn't there a book called 'How the Irish became White' by a black academic which deals with the issue of American-Irish rascism. Basically their bigotry was a response to the inequalities they themselves faced on arrival in a new country. Seems reasonable to me in a way but unfair to single out the Irish when surely it was common among all new arrivals to america - and of course they were only following well established attitudes.

I guess though the controversy over the St Patrick's Day parades and the AOH in NY has helped re-enforce this stereotype of homophobic Irish. Any Stereotype is bread and butter in hollywood

For some reason the Irish seemed to be among most extreme in the US among new arrivals. It has often been commented on. It may well be their status as the new entrants who faced discrimination, their religion (never the most tolerant or well informed), plus also the fact that they tended to form inward looking communities and both by choice and circumstance were less likely to integrate with people outside their community.

When it comes to making films, stereotypes matter because it allows a general perspective to be conveyed through personification.

Of course if they were looking for a standard cliché of a far right extremist Irish-American with so many chips on his shoulders he can hardly type they could simply have used youngdan, who is almost a caricature at this stage, a type of yellow-pack shock jock.

youngdan wrote:

Ask Papal, it is him who is ranting about Irish American steriotypes, now he is church bashing and what has that to do with the shithouse either

I've not been a member that long, but didn't MachineNation used to be nice?

Papal Knight wrote:

For some reason the Irish seemed to be among most extreme in the US among new arrivals. It has often been commented on.

I’d hazard a guess that a finding like that wouldn’t surprise you a great deal.

yehbut_nobut wrote:

youngdan wrote:

Ask Papal, it is him who is ranting about Irish American steriotypes, now he is church bashing and what has that to do with the shithouse either

I've not been a member that long, but didn't MachineNation used to be nice?

Yes. We were Blue Peter to p.ie's Magpie!

The best thing to do is ignore Youngdan. He listens to too many shock jocks and posts like one.

tonys wrote:

Papal Knight wrote:

For some reason the Irish seemed to be among most extreme in the US among new arrivals. It has often been commented on.

I’d hazard a guess that a finding like that wouldn’t surprise you a great deal.

I don't understand. Could you explain?

Papal Knight wrote:

tonys wrote:

Papal Knight wrote:

For some reason the Irish seemed to be among most extreme in the US among new arrivals. It has often been commented on.

I’d hazard a guess that a finding like that wouldn’t surprise you a great deal.

I don't understand. Could you explain?

No need to, the fact that you don’t understand is confirmation enough.

Papal Knight wrote:

shutuplaura wrote:

Isn't there a book called 'How the Irish became White' by a black academic which deals with the issue of American-Irish rascism. Basically their bigotry was a response to the inequalities they themselves faced on arrival in a new country. Seems reasonable to me in a way but unfair to single out the Irish when surely it was common among all new arrivals to america - and of course they were only following well established attitudes.

I guess though the controversy over the St Patrick's Day parades and the AOH in NY has helped re-enforce this stereotype of homophobic Irish. Any Stereotype is bread and butter in hollywood

For some reason the Irish seemed to be among most extreme in the US among new arrivals. It has often been commented on. It may well be their status as the new entrants who faced discrimination, their religion (never the most tolerant or well informed), plus also the fact that they tended to form inward looking communities and both by choice and circumstance were less likely to integrate with people outside their community.

When it comes to making films, stereotypes matter because it allows a general perspective to be conveyed through personification.

Of course if they were looking for a standard cliché of a far right extremist Irish-American with so many chips on his shoulders he can hardly type they could simply have used youngdan, who is almost a caricature at this stage, a type of yellow-pack shock jock.

Is that true though? I think the Irish assimilated well and quickly. Almost every influx of immigrants created an inward looking community - why would the italians be considered less inward looking than the irish? The Mafia was so powerful becasue it had inward looking italian communities to use as a base in cities throughout america, in Irish america you only seem to get this in Boston with the westies. The irish were quick to discard their language (were italians/chinese/jewish people/poles/russians?) I think its because the irish assimilated so well that they become a mirror against which the worst of americian working class life - (rascism, homophobia and domestic voilence i suppose) can be reflected. It allows people to think that it wasn't society in general, just the irish.

As for Hollywood stereotypes, I love the stereotypical hollywoood irish - see the curious case of Benjamin button for a great and recent example. It is rascist though i suppose.