eoinmn wrote:

soubresauts wrote:

eoinmn wrote:

Have many of you been to the Hill of Tara?

Standard Green Party response.

I don't believe it is.
Its a genuine question. I've been there twice. To the casual tourist, it is quite underwhelming.

The standard Green Party response, if you want it, is that the decision to not re-route the M3 was made by Roche.

I was there a couple of months ago (not my first visit!) and I'd challenge that even the most casual of tourists would be impressed with such a stunning setting!

Only someone as brainless anout the History of Ireland as Bertie Ahern could have sanctioned this traversity of a scar across a sacred Landscape.

Hopefully one day this road will be closed and rerouted but I doubt it will be anytime soon.

Pray to the Gods and hope for the best!

Mod: there are a couple of posts here that refer to people's supposed party membership and / or address the identity of the poster rather than the matters subject of the thread. A post of erigena's was deleted accordingly. Please leave the ad hominems outside the door when you come in.

So what's the chances of the Gov't running out of money for this, considering how much over budget it is already?

Wha' with the repression an all like?

Irish Mail on Sunday - Sunday 2nd January 2009

TAX-PAYERS face paying hundreds of millions of Euros if a series of new challenges against the M3 motorway succeed, campaigners warned last night. Lawyers representing anti-M3 protesters trying to save the Hill of Tara from the motorway have lodged a complaint with the United Nations against the Irish government. This has been lodged with the UN’s Commission on Human Rights on the grounds that construction of the motorway through such an historic site breaches both the Irish people’s right to enjoy their culture and live in a healthy environment. Such tactic has proved successful in the past, for example in 1980s in cases taken against the Australian government over inappropriate development of sacred cultural sites.

The UN approach is being backed by writer Seamus Heaney and artists Jim Fitzpatrick and Louis Le Brocquy, who have both donated paintings to be auctioned off to raise funds. TaraWatch lawyers are also to challenge M3 contractor Ferrovial’s involvement in the UN Global Compact (UGC) - the ethical practices charter the company signed up to in early 2000.

A similar challenge took place in 2007, when a Ferrovial motorway-building project through an EU Special Protection Area was halted after an EU Court of Justice challenge. The Spanish-based construction company is one of 5,000 firms and organizations from over 130 countries worldwide who have committed themselves to ten UGC principles. These cover good corporate practice, human rights, the environment and anti-corruption. Ferrovial has described its commitment to the UGC principles as being ‘one of the pillars of its corporate responsibility policy.’

All of the challenges under way by TaraWatch’s legal team - which includes legal experts from Trinity College Dublin and the Human Rights Centre at NUI Galway - have previously proved successful in legal challenges to the development of other historic sites around the world.
They are the latest in a series of moves by protesters against the controversial €800m motorway that cuts through the Hill of Tara, which runs between Navan and Dunshaughlin, in Co Meath. Last March one of the protests saw Lisa ‘Squeak’ Feeney chain herself to an underground tunnel in a bid to stop work on a section of the M3 at Rath Lugh. Other celebrities to lend their opposition have included actor Stuart Townsend and his wife Charlize Theron, and Tudors star Jonathan Rhys Meyers.

TaraWatch Lawyer Vincent Salafia said last night: ‘This new series of legal challenges stand a very realistic chance of success, especially as this approach has worked elsewhere before. ‘It’s not too late for the government to get the M3 re-routed, and at a relatively low extra cost. ‘But if it perseveres, and Tara gets World Heritage Status, it’s tax payers who are going to end up having to cover the extra costs involved in a future re-routing. ‘In the UK, the estimated cost of re-routing a road at Stonehenge hit more than €500m.’

Another strand of TaraWatch’s bid to save the Hill of Tara is to get it listed as a UNESCO World Heritage Site. They are urging everybody to write to the Environment Minister Gormley and to ask that Tara be listed. Salafia said last night: ‘The Hill of Tara complex qualifies for World Heritage status as a natural and cultural landscape of outstanding universal value, due to its unique cultural significance, and the extent of the surviving remains. ‘Tara covers a much larger area than that the 100 acres of State-owned land on the summit of the Hill, and the M3 passes through the middle of the area to be protected.’

If the Hill of Tara is listed, then the M3 could have to be re-routed around the site – something that the UK government has had to spend millions trying to achieve. It is currently facing censured by UNESCO for its failure to relieve traffic congestion at the site. The UN’s cultural body warned the UK government it would have to sort the problem – caused by holiday traffic – when it awarded Stonehenge World Heritage Status in 1986. A road passes just 150 yards from the stones and plans to solve congestion with a dual carriageway in a tunnel were recently scrapped by the UK government because of the estimated €500m cost. However, the government’s failure to comply with UNESCO’s warnings more than 22 years ago have already cost of €30m in failed road development surveys and it faces having Stonehenge taken off the list of World Heritage Sites, which will cost the country in terms of prestige and tourism revenue.

The Irish government faces a similar problem if the Hill of Tara – which is on the World Monuments Fund’s latest List of 100 Most Endangered Sites - gets World Heritage Status. Ireland signed up to the World Heritage Convention in 1991, and in doing so, committed itself to protecting and conserving national and international world heritage sites. It also undertook to maintain a Tentative List of potential sites for World Heritage Site nomination, and to nominate national heritage sites on this list to the World Heritage Committee for World Heritage listing. The last time it produced such a list was in 1992.

The Hill of Tara, which is considered the ceremonial and mythical capital of Ireland, is the centrepiece of a large archaeological landscape with hundreds of significant sites. It is said to be the location of St. Patrick's conversion of the Irish to Christianity in the early fifth century. It is also the coronation site of Irish kings between the sixth and twelfth centuries.

studiorat wrote:

So what's the chances of the Gov't running out of money for this, considering how much over budget it is already?

Wha' with the repression an all like?

Hello studiorat

Not only was I giving out, but I accidentally deleted a post of erigena's when modding it. Apologies erigena.

It's difficult to keep the balance right and vigorous debate is obviously a good thing, but our mission here is to play the ball rather than the man: the alternative is a slippery slope to a posting bloodbath. We like to have a friendly site and treat all posters with respect on the basis of their posts not who they are.
Have a look at the Charter: it was made by the members after a lot of discussion, but its open to review at any time if members think it is too slack or too rigid.

Dammit! Recession.
Dunno what I was thinkin' there...

Even funnier the Fianna Fail TD from Meath told me I wasn't Irish enough cos I wasn't a Gaelgoir

Unfortunately for him, my granddad had an old IRA pension from the East Clare Brigade and my mates Grand-dad was in 1916

So I was able to reply with suitable disdain... my poor auld grand-dad fighting for freedom of a country that elects such morons ;0

Btw.... have a hell of of lot of material on this that i've collected... including the fact that the public consultation was rejected as evidence at the tribunal, after Meath Road Action Group proved it was not only weighted to get the desired result but was also missing forms belonging to the people who were objecting at the hearing....
and here's the planning analysis..with links to the actual files... the result should have been a full geophys on the Orange route. http://www.globalartscollective.org/acf/permission.htm

..... so if you need quotes from Lemass, Collins, Dev, on the importance of history... or my current favourite for abroad...

When Joyce wrote his autobiographical novel a portrait of the artist a young man.. he finished saying he would emigrate for the "quickest way to Tara is through Holyhead".. it was not a Noble prize that is the pinicle of Irish achievement, only at Tara can an Irish person be truely crowned.

as for the greens ... and other politics hacks... we answered every one of their objections and questions in this thread...
http://www.politics.ie/green-party/17359-greens-betray-tara-power-their-30-pieces-silver.html

There is only one answer to the Tara debacle and that is to bring the M3 back into the N3 after
Drumshauglin and rethink... other than that any prayers that Fervorri and Siac go bust are welcome

other than that it's going to be expensive since there is up to 90% of the cost of the motorway guarenteed by the government if traffic does not ( and it won't ) live up to expectations set in a never ending boom ... plus fines expected from the EU... all those who supported it

That's working out about 1 billlion especially as the 2,800 a year tolls from Kells mean people will still use the N3.

Hello Scribe, your very welcome. When you have a minute you might like to sign in in the signing in thread, and have a read of the Site Charter. Look forward to your posts.

Oh and btw I love going to Tara... especially if I'm in a foul mood...
there is nothing like 5000 odd years of history and 800 of struggle to tell you to get over yourself

A ps on this one..

Gormley brought out a Press release with this M3 shouldn't affect Tara Heritage status just before the last UNESCO meeting ... Pretending that he was going to raise it.

I sent a email to UNESCO as soon as I saw this and they emailed back saying Tara would not be discussed because he, Gormley, the Green Minister, had not put it in the agenda....

According to UNESCO rules, world heritage has to be put forward by the government concerned.

Trust factor 0 ......

Brazil and some other UNESCO representatives then said that they would raise it....as it fits in with the "shared world heritage". Cannot be listed because of this but they can at least raise it.

UNESCO is not coming here at the request of the Green party or any Irish political party. So be sure to Copy UNESCO and the members of the working party coming here on your submission.

Hill of Tara

BBC News Video - Mon, 5 January 2009

“Is the fight against a controversial motorway near one of Ireland’s most historic sights now a lost cause? Motorists travelling on the Enniskillen to Dublin road will be aware of the road works on the controversial M3 near the Hill of Tara in County Meath. The battle by environmentalists and historians opposing the project has been going on for years but, as our Dublin correspondent Shane Harrison reports, some of them are now at the point of accepting defeat.
–
Once again, a news story full of inaccuracies:

1. Nobody has accepted defeat. As it says in the video clip, “we are reaching the point of no return” but are still trying to negotiate, etc…

2. The motorway is 3/4 of a mile from the TOP of the hill, not the hill itself.

3. The motorway was not delayed by legal actions.

But it is good to see the issue is still on the international news agenda.

Yeah saw that... and yeah the old myth of delayed by the legal challenges rears it's head when it was as predicted by Conor Newman at the planning hearing in 2001 delayed by the large amount of monuments (140 last time I heard) including 2 national ones found in it's path.

Still see Tarawatch has been given permission to join the UN Global Compact which Fervorri have signed up to which means they promise not to do exactly what they are doing to Tara Means they can now challenge them properly...

Irish always come back just when they think we're out....
So not to despair as yet...

another ps.... You do know if you complain to the BBC about the inaccruacy they will issue an on-air correction Keep the ball in the air so to speak,.

Hill of Tara included in review of heritage sites

Meath Chronicle - By John Donohoe - Wednesday, 7th January, 2009


The Hill of Tara may still be designated as a World Heritage Site. Campaign group TaraWatch is asking members of the public to participate in the consultation process regarding possible UNESCO designation of the Hill of Tara as a World Heritage Site. Submissions must be made to the Department of the Environment by 30th January, following the announcement by the Minister for the Environment on 1st December last that he is reviewing Ireland’s tentative list of World Heritage Sites. The minister stated in May that he did not see the M3 motorway preventing UNESCO designation.

TaraWatch is asking the public to make its views known, and to support the TaraWatch position, which is that the Hill of Tara is a site of
outstanding universal value to humanity, and should be a UNESCO site; that the M3 motorway ruins the integrity of the site, because it passes through the complex of monuments to be protected and should be re-routed before Tara is given UNESCO status; and that it would be a breach of the UN World Heritage Convention for Ireland and UNESCO to designate Tara a World Heritage Site with the M3 passing through it.

Submissions can be emailed to both worldheritagetentativelist@environ.ie and secretariat@unesco.org, or on the petition at www.savetarapetition.net

Contact TaraWatch at info@tarawatch.org

Join their Facebook cause, with over 5,000 members or their email discussion list

The campaign, no criticism of anyone involved, seems to have started very late, rather than in parallel with the planning process. It may not have stopped the road scheme even if it had been in full swing of course. Some bad infrasructural decisions have been made all round.

Transport infrastructure planning here is at an unbelieveable level - for exaple CIE was allowed to sell off critical rail lands for yuppie development in Dublin that damaged freight routes to a major port. A national road development went forward for planning with an intersection between two national roads accessible only from one direction. An Bord Pleanala spotted that and stopped it. Just two examples.

There is no profession of Transport Planner in Ireland and civil engineers who haven't a clue about it were making the recommendations.

Metro North, that would destroy Stephens Green, was decided on without cost benefit analysis and the route desgined to wind through leafy suburbs with no one to use the service, past Bertie's door. The idea is to pile apartments into Swords to make it viable post hoc.

So, thanks for the information Anticoalition - I'll make a submission. May as well give it our best shot.

The Tara campaign has been going since before Mon 03 Mar 2000, when The Irish Times published a letter by Susan Brennan, PRO of STAD (Save Tara and District).

Quote :

Save Tara

Sir,
- I was very perturbed listening to the Morning Ireland earlier this month. A representative of the Irish construction industry spoke about
the wilful stubbornness of woolly-headed tree-huggers who want to stop "progress" (i.e. road building etc.) and transport us all back to the
ass and cart era of ould Ireland.He implied that anyone who objected to the building of motorways, power plants, sewage plants etc. were, at best, misguided and, at worst, bent on the caging and confinement of the Celtic Tiger....
(I don't have a subscription, but this is what the preview shows)

STAD was comprised of people who lived along the Orange Route, but disbanded when the current route was made the preferred route. Many other local groups campaigned during the planning process, including the Meath Archaeological and Historical Society, Meath Roads Action Group, Bellinter Residents Association, and so on. Alternative proposals were made and ignored. Various other groups have come and gone in the meantime too, such as Save Tara Skryne Valley Group and Campaign to Save Tara.

Various campaign strategies have been tried and failed. There was were three legal cases by different parties, and there is an EU case outstanding, but they did not seek to stop the road. While meetings were held with UNESCO in 2004, the concerns raised were ignored because Tara was not on the Tentative List.

TaraWatch was formed in 2005 and is the only group left still working on this. The current UNESCO approach could not have been made until the Government announced that it was considering putting Tara on the List, which it did in May last year. The Minister's consultation process for the List was then announced on Dec 1.

Thanks for that Anticoalition. I was generally aware of the amount of time, money and energies a lot of people have put into this. I suppose what I was referring to was that the real head of steam and public awareness built up after the Route Selection stage, at least that was my impression. There is a law of diminishing returns in terms of the impact of campaigns on things going through the planning process.

This is often the case, not just with Tara. The prospects for Stephens Green
are worrying - I rest my hopes with the economy to finish off Metro North.

cactus flower wrote:

Thanks for that Anticoalition. I was generally aware of the amount of time, money and energies a lot of people have put into this. I suppose what I was referring to was that the real head of steam and public awareness built up after the Route Selection stage, at least that was my impression. There is a law of diminishing returns in terms of the impact of campaigns on things going through the planning process.

This is often the case, not just with Tara. The prospects for Stephens Green
are worrying - I rest my hopes with the economy to finish off Metro North.

That is because of the way the Planning Hearing was run ... This point was raised a million times with me
and the answer is very simply ....

When Conor Newman, and the Discovery Programme with over 18 years in experience (Tara Discovery Programme was formed in 1992) in the Tara area stand at the Planning Hearing and say this is the worst possible route, you expect them to be listened to.

When Meath Road Action Group prove that the public consultation was literally rigged. And that public opinion was overwhelmingly for the routes outside the Valley. Questionaires were weighted, forms were missing.... you expect the Planning Hearing to reject it. Instead the Council testified that "Public Consultation" was not a legal requirment. Yet the Government still touts that "they spent lots of time on
Public consultation" but when it gave the wrong result they dismissed it.

What could I have added? My joke is you wanted everyone to turn up with T-shirts pointing at Conor Newman saying "I'm with him!"

No-one expected anything but that our Planning Tribunal would do it's work and reject this route.

It was obvious that from then there was something incredibly strange about this decision and something is behind it that I still do not understand... But for such an issue that has public support - the fact that Fine Gael do not support the re-route means it's something a little more powerful than public opinion.

I know, that's all fair enough. We have a right to expect the system will get it right.

Once tenders are signed on a project, the horse has pretty well bolted imo, and it can be better use of time to move on to something else where success is far more likely. But I do respect that for some people this is a core issue and I am glad that it has not been allowed to be buried.

eoinmn wrote:

soubresauts wrote:

eoinmn wrote:

Have many of you been to the Hill of Tara?

Standard Green Party response.

I don't believe it is.
Its a genuine question. I've been there twice. To the casual tourist, it is quite underwhelming.
.

Actually yes, the history of Tara lies beneath the land, it is not a visually spectacular....

However when you look across the Valley, (trying desperately to ignore the big hole they've put on the side of Rath Lugh for the motorway ) and you tell your visitor how Dan O'Connell with a cart and a band followed by approx 1 million people filled the valley,

how from the mound of the hostages is where the Wicked Fairy of Tara used to come every Samhain until Finn killed her....
How St Patrick lit his pascal fire and how in Tara he picked the first shamrock.......
How Maud Gonne brought her school children to Tara and how 6 years later these because the foot soldiers of Independence struggle....
How Brehon law was discussed at the Feis, and the importance of truth and good judgement in those days...
How people died on the Hill in 1798...
Strangely most of my visitors think it's the best place in the world.....

And afterwards you go from the cold wind of the Hill into the coffee shop and have what has to be the best soup in the world..... magic.......

CountessMarkievicz wrote in 1909,
Arm your minds with the histories and memories of your country and her martyrs, her
language and a knowledge of her arts, and her industries……..

or from National Monuments Bill, 1929—Second Stage.

It is particularly necessary in Ireland to
preserve those monuments to get the history of them and to teach all about
them, because, as a learned professor in the National University said a few
years ago, many attempts were made here to poison the wells of history. I think
some of the streams of history are to be found in those monuments.

We know so little of our history, so much has been lost. That is why the proper preservation of the Tara landscape until the tools we are so near to posesssing such as better geophys is available. Is 10 years of non-development such a long time for a 5,000 to 7,000 year old valley?
Aren't you fancinate to try and figure out how Lismullen was used and how it relates to the 5,000 year old sister Oak temple surrounding the Hill itself...... Or like most Fianna Fail hacks are you a shop keeper fumbling in the till.....

sorry for the size - can't quite work it out

It must be lovely there today.

cactus flower wrote:

I know, that's all fair enough. We have a right to expect the system will get it right.

Once tenders are signed on a project, the horse has pretty well bolted imo, and it can be better use of time to move on to something else where success is far more likely. But I do respect that for some people this is a core issue and I am glad that it has not been allowed to be buried.

It will never be buried... It's Tara.... and to be honest, most people worry that it is jsut the first step...
the more fuss the more chance of stopping further "progress".

So weary as we might be .... I will haunt those to the grave....

We may not be able to change it but we can ensure that their betrayal will never be forgotten...

And face it ... when your sitting on the Hill of Tara and smiling at the thought of Griffiths and

Countess Markievicz looking around before touching the Lia Fail to see if it will call out to them They faced a lot more than being called a Tree hugger and they didn't give up....

we didn't get to be "indominable" but saying the contract is sign.. otherwise we'd still be in the union

scribe wrote:

Aren't you fancinate to try and figure out how Lismullen was used and how it relates to the 5,000 year old sister Oak temple surrounding the Hill itself...... Or like most Fianna Fail hacks are you a shop keeper fumbling in the till.....

Ah yes indeed, the stamp of the superior twit.

cactus flower wrote:

It must be lovely there today.

I went on a first date there last December... it was soo f$%king freezing.... the wind just cuts you this time of the year....

But you can hide in trenches of the Raths and it's not too bad......

What can I say...It worked .... I'm a sucker for the place