If You're Chillin' - An Síbín Reoite

There you go.



And a pint for meself.

johnfás wrote:

Many, but not all Solicitors in Ireland have the status of Notary Public. It is irrelevant in Irish law because you can now sign any Irish legal document in the presence of a Solicitor (handy earner for the young ones) rather than a Notary Public but the term still exists and some country's require that you sign in front of them.

How much

Our next thread will be our 2,000th.

Wonder what it will be...

Auditor #9 wrote:

johnfás wrote:

Many, but not all Solicitors in Ireland have the status of Notary Public. It is irrelevant in Irish law because you can now sign any Irish legal document in the presence of a Solicitor (handy earner for the young ones) rather than a Notary Public but the term still exists and some country's require that you sign in front of them.

How much

Not alot, 12 euro for an affadavit with an exhibit. It pays for your lunch though.

12 quid only ?! I thought it'd be around 50. That's a bit slave labour I suppose the boss gets a cut of that too. You'd get two Bendini and Shaw fancy sandwiches for that, or your lunch in the Kildare Hotel or three pints in the Kildare hotel, or nearly two McDonalds ..

Good for the customer though

It most solicitors firms they just let the young solicitors take it and stick it in their pockets. Basically whoever is crossing the lobby when you walk into the building. Generally the affadavit has been prepared by a separate firm of solicitors though so you would be paying them alot more. It is a 10 euro set fee for a Solicitor to witness the signing of the document and 2 euro for any exhibited related to the signing - it is a set fee from the Law Society.

johnfás wrote:

It most solicitors firms they just let the young solicitors take it and stick it in their pockets. Basically whoever is crossing the lobby when you walk into the building. Generally the affadavit has been prepared by a separate firm of solicitors though so you would be paying them alot more. It is a 10 euro set fee for a Solicitor to witness the signing of the document and 2 euro for any exhibited related to the signing - it is a set fee from the Law Society.

johnfás, what, exactly, is the Law Society? Is it a trade union, a trade organisation, a regulatory body or all three put together?

All three put together.

Their self description is: "We are the educational, representative and regulatory body of the solicitors' profession in Ireland."

They control almost everything to do with the profession, albeit within the confines of Statute such as The Solicitors Act. They control access to the profession by way of their exams and their position as the sole educator of solicitors in Ireland. They provide the regulatory framework within which the profession Acts including the imposition of Continuous Professional Development. They are the arbitrar in disputes between clients and solicitors, though the courts can also have a function in this regard and they represent the interests of the profession.

johnfás wrote:

All three put together.

Their self description is: "We are the educational, representative and regulatory body of the solicitors' profession in Ireland."

They control almost everything to do with the profession, albeit within the confines of Statute such as The Solicitors Act. They control access to the profession by way of their exams and their position as the sole educator of solicitors in Ireland. They provide the regulatory framework within which the profession Acts including the imposition of Continuous Professional Development. They are the arbitrar in disputes between clients and solicitors, though the courts can also have a function in this regard and they represent the interests of the profession.

Goodness, so they are in a fairly effective position to maintain control of the legal industry with a few leading firms setting prices?

Well they do control the legal profession but I'm not sure I would agree with you in relation to the leading firms setting prices. Generally the pricing structure between the large firms and the smaller firms would be completely different which is understandable owing to the different type of work they do.

Arguably there has been too great a downward pressure on general legal fees. Clearly I am not talking about Tribunals and what not but things like a simple conveyance in your local firm are often now done at barely above cost price. That is not a recipe for the professional service that one would hope to receive from a professional services firm but it is sadly a reflection of the times. Small solicitors firms are under huge pressure and they have been for quite a while. Conveyancing managed to keep the ship steady for the last while but alot of the core business has been removed from small firms owing to the introduction of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board (PIAB) taking alot of their business away. It has meant that with conveyancing drying up alot o firms are in serious bother.

johnfás wrote:

Well they do control the legal profession but I'm not sure I would agree with you in relation to the leading firms setting prices. Generally the pricing structure between the large firms and the smaller firms would be completely different which is understandable owing to the different type of work they do.

I see, because while the likes of Arthur Cox would be advising on a €1 billion+ M&A deal by someone like Kerry Group, Mahony & O'Driscoll of Ballybeag would be dealing with much smaller clients. So the fees structure isn't centrally controlled? There would be a market mechanism by which prices are set for differing legal activities in different places?

Quote :

Arguably there has been too great a downward pressure on general legal fees. Clearly I am not talking about Tribunals and what not but things like a simple conveyance in your local firm are often now done at barely above cost price. That is not a recipe for the professional service that one would hope to receive from a professional services firm but it is sadly a reflection of the times.

I see. Would you see that as an excessive reaction to the accusations of overly-high incomes in the legal profession or a function of the collapse in demand from the building sector?

Yes, there are 5 big firms - A&L Goodbody, William Fry, Arthur Cox, McCann FitzGerald and Matheson Ormsby Prentice. Hot on their heels is Maples & Calder a firm that deal with alot of offshore hedge funds and only established a presence in Dublin over the past number of years - they're that big shiny building that changes colour near the Dept of Foreign Affairs on Stephens Green. Those five firms really are in their own category as regards their own distinct market. Sure they have private client sections but you are talking about high net worth individuals. Their business would centre on major clients from Ireland and MNCs based in Ireland as well as work on behalf of the State and semi-State companies. Mergers and Acquisitions, specialised corporate work, all that kind of stuff.

There are a number of intermediate firms, I believe those are the ones that are really feeling the pinch right now. They expanded rapidly during the boom years in an attempt to get up and rival the big boys but so much of that was built on property deals which are now idle and consequently they're really struggling. In percentage terms they are the firms letting the most people go.

Then you have the plethora of smaller firms all about the place who serve the needs of longstanding clients and local business. If they are lucky they may have one fairly substantial client who has grown over the years but was probably originally a local business.

In regard to the fees issue, there was huge competition amongst small practitioners to get into the property game and as a result there really was a price war in relation to conveyancing. As everyone knows a race to the bottom is not necessarily a good thing and so it will prove in the legal profession. When you are rushing things through and doing it on the basis of fees which don't reflect the value of the work you are far more likely to have situations where issues like searches for encumbrances against a property are not adequately carried out. These smaller firms lost nearly a quarter of their business with the creation of PIAB so they were really living on conveyancing.

johnfás wrote:

Yes, there are 5 big firms - A&L Goodbody, William Fry, Arthur Cox, McCann FitzGerald and Matheson Ormsby Prentice. Hot on their heels is Maples & Calder a firm that deal with alot of offshore hedge funds and only established a presence in Dublin over the past number of years - they're that big shiny building that changes colour near the Dept of Foreign Affairs on Stephens Green. Those five firms really are in their own category as regards their own distinct market. Sure they have private client sections but you are talking about high net worth individuals. Their business would centre on major clients from Ireland and MNCs based in Ireland as well as work on behalf of the State and semi-State companies. Mergers and Acquisitions, specialised corporate work, all that kind of stuff.

So they'd be very much in a separate market from the rest of the industry, with their own business cycle? Our legal profession seems very much Irish-owned - which is interesting considering that we are such an open economy. Would that be because the legal profession is relatively more sheltered than, for example, retail or banking?

Quote :

There are a number of intermediate firms, I believe those are the ones that are really feeling the pinch right now. They expanded rapidly during the boom years in an attempt to get up and rival the big boys but so much of that was built on property deals which are now idle and consequently they're really struggling. In percentage terms they are the firms letting the most people go.

It's interesting that you say that because in retail that's been a similar experience. It seems that the very large companies have enough cash, client base and reputation to see themselves through the hard times. Smaller firms haven't had much in cash to begin with and, as you say, would have a far more personal relationship with clients so there'd be less likelihood of losing customers. Intermediate firms have neither of these comforts so are feeling the squeeze.

Quote :

In regard to the fees issue, there was huge competition amongst small practitioners to get into the property game and as a result there really was a price war in relation to conveyancing. As everyone knows a race to the bottom is not necessarily a good thing and so it will prove in the legal profession. When you are rushing things through and doing it on the basis of fees which don't reflect the value of the work you are far more likely to have situations where issues like searches for encumbrances against a property are not adequately carried out. These smaller firms lost nearly a quarter of their business with the creation of PIAB so they were really living on conveyancing.

Ah, so the property boom really warped the underpinnings of the legal trade? It really was such a big feck-up of the country.

Yes the top five firms do exist largely in their own market - they are also highly regarded internationally when you read international reports on European law firms. I'd say their private client sections can face competition from high calibre niche firms but they pretty much just compete with each other most of the really big business.

The legal profession is largely Irish owned but that is probably down to the fact that we have a separate legal system as much as any sheltering. Law is different to a profession such as accountancy which can function quite easily on a global basis. An Irish Chartered Accountant can automatically practice in the UK and it is no bother to practice in most jurisdictions. You would also have situations where, owing to the more internationally flavoured regulation of accountancy, a subsidiary in Ireland is being largely audited by a firm in the UK or vice versa. This doesn't really work in respect of law because you have distinct legislation and legal systems in each jurisdictions. The law firms certainly have their international networks though and part of their more internationalised work would be fed through these networks.

Yes the property boom did warp the underpinnings of a large part of the legal profession. In alot of ways it merely served to hide the fact that legal work was rapidly declining anyway, especially with the change in personal injuries law. With both now gone the profession faces a torrid time of it. I know of a firm where they had 20 trainees qualify this year and 1 was kept on.

johnfás wrote:

Yes the top five firms do exist largely in their own market - they are also highly regarded internationally when you read international reports on European law firms. I'd say their private client sections can face competition from high calibre niche firms but they pretty much just compete with each other most of the really big business.

Indeed, and I would imagine that their strong international reputations would be a further shield against them losing too many clients and case-work from those clients.

Quote :

The legal profession is largely Irish owned but that is probably down to the fact that we have a separate legal system as much as any sheltering. Law is different to a profession such as accountancy which can function quite easily on a global basis. An Irish Chartered Accountant can automatically practice in the UK and it is no bother to practice in most jurisdictions. You would also have situations where, owing to the more internationally flavoured regulation of accountancy, a subsidiary in Ireland is being largely audited by a firm in the UK or vice versa. This doesn't really work in respect of law because you have distinct legislation and legal systems in each jurisdictions. The law firms certainly have their international networks though and part of their more internationalised work would be fed through these networks.

Of course, I hadn't thought of the fact that because of the differing legal systems and constitutional arrangements, you would need specialised knowledge to operate in each market. This barrier would impede, to a certain extent, the amount of international legal firms operating in any jurisdiction.

Quote :

Yes the property boom did warp the underpinnings of a large part of the legal profession. In alot of ways it merely served to hide the fact that legal work was rapidly declining, especially with the change in personal injuries law. With both now gone the profession faces a torrid time of it. I know of a firm where they had 20 trainees qualify this year and 1 was kept on.

Do you not think that the likes of the Séamus Ross vs the infill providers will bring in case-work sufficient to support the legal profession in the next few years. In a recession, a lot of bad things happen which can be contested in a court of law. These firms can cater to that demand.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

Do you not think that the likes of the Séamus Ross vs the infill providers will bring in case-work sufficient to support the legal profession in the next few years. In a recession, a lot of bad things happen which can be contested in a court of law. These firms can cater to that demand.

Cashflow is as big a problem as the amount of work I am afraid. Séamus Ross probably won't pay up most of the fees until the end of the case which might not be for 18 months and all the time you are paying your staff and your overheads whilst the bank is on your back because they don't like providing fee financing anymore.

johnfás wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

Do you not think that the likes of the Séamus Ross vs the infill providers will bring in case-work sufficient to support the legal profession in the next few years. In a recession, a lot of bad things happen which can be contested in a court of law. These firms can cater to that demand.

Cashflow is as big a problem as the amount of work I am afraid. Séamus Ross probably won't pay up most of the fees until the end of the case which might not be for 18 months and all the time you are paying your staff and your overheads whilst the bank is on your back because they don't like providing fee financing anymore.

Oh well that's a pity. What about liquidations, examinerships and administration? AFAICR, A&L Goodbody have a large division devoted to this area which should be seeing a big pick-up in business with the large number of firms falling into these positions.

Yes all the big firms have significant Corporate Recovery and Insolvency divisions. But then again, as we said they are the firms which are going to survive anyway, it is the intermediate firms which are really really struggling. That said, I was talking to the head partner for insolvency in one of the big five a couple of weeks ago and they were saying it is both a good and a bad time to be working in insolvency. There are lots of firms going bust which means more work but unlike the 1990s there are very few potential buyers for the assets which you have to dispose of.

johnfás wrote:

Yes all the big firms have significant Corporate Recovery and Insolvency divisions. But then again, as we said they are the firms which are going to survive anyway, it is the intermediate firms which are really really struggling. That said, I was talking to the head partner for insolvency in one of the big five a couple of weeks ago and they were saying it is both a good and a bad time to be working in insolvency. There are lots of firms going bust which means more work but unlike the 1990s there are very few potential buyers for the assets which you have to dispose of.

Right, so there's very little in the way of good news and growth prospects in the legal profession? That's depressing since it's a highly-skilled and well-paid profession which supports so much of the rest of the economy.

Correct, I can unfortunately report that there is very little good news coming out of the profession at the moment. There is significant unemployment in the profession (roughly the same as the national average, 10%, which is unusual) and there are few employment opportunities presently for those being made redundant, most of whom are newly qualified.

johnfás wrote:

Correct, I can unfortunately report that there is very little good news coming out of the profession at the moment. There is significant unemployment in the profession (roughly the same as the national average, 10%, which is unusual) and there are few employment opportunities presently for those being made redundant, most of whom are newly qualified.

Would there be plenty of educational/training supports, then? Could un/underemployed solicitors go and do a course for 1-2 years while this recession crashes down on us? Could they do this to widen their abilities so that, say, a commercial solicitor could do a course in family law so they could practice that too?

The Law Society are currently advertising a position for someone who is going to fulfil that role of supporting solicitors who have recently been let go. Some people are going to Australia and Canada, you can gain practicing recognition there by sitting a few exams.

johnfás wrote:

The Law Society are currently advertising a position for someone who is going to fulfil that role of supporting solicitors who have recently been let go. Some people are going to Australia and Canada, you can gain practicing recognition there by sitting a few exams.

I recall seeing that advertisement now. Have they got someone for that position yet? It'd be pretty important to do that since there should be plenty out there who would be in need of those services.

Anyone watching the Late Late? There is an American cosmetic surgeon talking about vaginal rejuvination... any takers?