floatingingalway wrote:

I wouldn't be a fan of Libertas so I suppose I do mean the

Quote :

thirty something unemployed aspiring or middle class.

Is it up to us to be engaged properly? It is not only the students in Greece who are feeling disenfranchised.

The Students there were steadily being focused on by the 'right-wing' Government for budget cuts so the Government was foolishly adding indignation to a group who definitely seem to have the conviction. We don't have any one large enough group with conviction here yet to blow up, although I don't know if rioting and burning is the answer either.

But it's not just students who are at it down there - it seems to be a general swell that has been building for a while.

I am trying to think of any situation historically in which riots have brought about permanent and positive change.

The problem isn't so much the riots as the lack of a political alternative to the failed old parties. The door is open for either a state forces crackdown or the emergence of the far right - that has been clear since the beginning of the year.

There is definitely a need for a left alternative, and the SWPs single issue approach has been going nowhere. The Communist Parties pretty well wound up after the fall of the USSR, although they might still be players in the old USSR countries. There are some populist charismatic led government in Latin America. There seem to be a lot of different versions of Trotsyism out there, if you look at the net, but no solid organisation.

Perhaps Joe H. will come here one day and make his stump speech.

After the US backed coup in Venezuela - it was people power that restored democracy - they took to the streets in such vast numbers that the coup leaders fled in fear. That's not a riot of course. Mass expressions of protest and even angry riots do make governments aware that there is only so far they can go but no further. There has never been a single democratic freedom that was obtained without a fight of some sort - none was ever 'given' - they had all to be demanded. Right now all our freedoms are being taken away again - employment rights, rights of peaceful protest, rights of privacy while at the same time a massive economic burden is being imposed on the business sectors and individuals who have no responsibility for the filthy prictices of the financial markets and the political class who facilitated them at every turn. It makes my blood boil, for one, to think of the thousands of people thrown out of jobs here and small, profitable businesses that are going to the wall in Ireland while not a single banker, economist or politician has had to lose theirs. Not only that but the banking bailout and recapitalisation plans are not working because the money is only going to subsidise the wrong economic entities. And as has been said to death, meanwhile the people responsible go on enjoying massive salary and other subsidies courtesy of their victims. In the face of that sort of arrogance it's no wonder people are angry enough to riot, imo.

Aragon wrote:

After the US backed coup in Venezuela - it was people power that restored democracy - they took to the streets in such vast numbers that the coup leaders fled in fear. That's not a riot of course. Mass expressions of protest and even angry riots do make governments aware that there is only so far they can go but no further. There has never been a single democratic freedom that was obtained without a fight of some sort - none was ever 'given' - they had all to be demanded. Right now all our freedoms are being taken away again - employment rights, rights of peaceful protest, rights of privacy while at the same time a massive economic burden is being imposed on the business sectors and individuals who have no responsibility for the filthy prictices of the financial markets and the political class who facilitated them at every turn. It makes my blood boil, for one, to think of the thousands of people thrown out of jobs here and small, profitable businesses that are going to the wall in Ireland while not a single banker, economist or politician has had to lose theirs. Not only that but the banking bailout and recapitalisation plans are not working because the money is only going to subsidise the wrong economic entities. And as has been said to death, meanwhile the people responsible go on enjoying massive salary and other subsidies courtesy of their victims. In the face of that sort of arrogance it's no wonder people are angry enough to riot, imo.

Plenty of dictators have fallen when masses of people have taken to the streets in a disciplined way, and when someone was ready to take responsibility for government. Riots are the opposite to that - I was watching TV film of the Los Angeles riots last week and saw a looter taking clothes from a dry cleaner, with the owner saying " what are you doing - those are your neighbour's clothes". The rich don't pay for riots. They are just a gesture of powerless frustration. In Greece, I think there is much more going on than just riots, and it is very much a media exercise to make it look as though there is a total breakdown of order and no coherent opposition.

cactus flower wrote:

I am trying to think of any situation historically in which riots have brought about permanent and positive change.

The problem isn't so much the riots as the lack of a political alternative to the failed old parties. The door is open for either a state forces crackdown or the emergence of the far right - that has been clear since the beginning of the year.

There is definitely a need for a left alternative, and the SWPs single issue approach has been going nowhere. The Communist Parties pretty well wound up after the fall of the USSR, although they might still be players in the old USSR countries. There are some populist charismatic led government in Latin America. There seem to be a lot of different versions of Trotsyism out there, if you look at the net, but no solid organisation.

Perhaps Joe H. will come here one day and make his stump speech.

The Velvet Revolution in Czech springs to mind as a peaceful overturning of a government. That would be the line I am thinking of. The SWP attitude scares me, to be honest. I have been heavily involved in grassroots campaigns throughout my adult life and that lot always show up when all the groundwork has been done and get so hardcore so fast that they manage to scare all the ordinary people off. In fact, I could say that they have been the bane of my activist life! I run now when I see the wallpaper-pasting table/megaphone combo.

floatingingalway wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

I am trying to think of any situation historically in which riots have brought about permanent and positive change.

The problem isn't so much the riots as the lack of a political alternative to the failed old parties. The door is open for either a state forces crackdown or the emergence of the far right - that has been clear since the beginning of the year.

There is definitely a need for a left alternative, and the SWPs single issue approach has been going nowhere. The Communist Parties pretty well wound up after the fall of the USSR, although they might still be players in the old USSR countries. There are some populist charismatic led government in Latin America. There seem to be a lot of different versions of Trotsyism out there, if you look at the net, but no solid organisation.

Perhaps Joe H. will come here one day and make his stump speech.

The Velvet Revolution in Czech springs to mind as a peaceful overturning of a government. That would be the line I am thinking of. The SWP attitude scares me, to be honest. I have been heavily involved in grassroots campaigns throughout my adult life and that lot always show up when all the groundwork has been done and get so hardcore so fast that they manage to scare all the ordinary people off. In fact, I could say that they have been the bane of my activist life! I run now when I see the wallpaper-pasting table/megaphone combo.

I think they have had some members in Ireland who are serious people, but overall, its a dilletante approach.

Quote :

25 Dec.
Police Bus fired at in Athens, Greece

ATHENS: Hundreds of anarchists chanting "cops, pigs, murderers" marched through Athens on Tuesday hours after a gunman opened fire at a
riot-police bus in a third week of anti-government protests since police shot dead a teenager.

An unidentified gunman shot at the bus carrying 19 officers when it stopped at traffic lights outside a university campus in eastern Athens at around 5 am. Two bullets hit the bus, bursting a tyre, but no one was injured in the incident, which is being investigated by counter-terrorism police.

Times of India

Quote :

26 Dec.
Shots fired at suburban train in Greece

ATHENS, Greece -- Gunmen fired at a train travelling in a suburb of Athens, shattering windows in a middle car, local media reported on Friday (December 26th). It happened near the suburb of Tavros on Thursday night. No one aboard suffered injury. That was the third incident involving firearms since a police officer shot a 15-year-old boy dead on December 6th, which triggered violent protests and rioting across the country.

Meanwhile, a fresh wave of arson damaged seven cars, a bank and a government building in Athens early Thursday following three weeks of protests against the teenager's killing. Officials reported no injuries. On Wednesday evening, about 700 protesters marched through Athens' main shopping district to demand the release of those arrested during the recent rioting.

South European Times

Quote :

26 Dec.
Police and Government cars, bank, attacked in Greece

A Greek government official's car was firebombed in front of his house on Friday while assailants threw a Molotov cocktail at a bank and another group attacked a police car, authorities said.

Attacks on government and banking facilities are frequent in Greece, but they have been widespread since a 15-year-old boy was killed by police earlier this month, triggering a wave of violent youth protests against authorities.

Link

Another big protest is planned for the 9th of January.

cactus flower wrote:

Aragon wrote:

After the US backed coup in Venezuela - it was people power that restored democracy - they took to the streets in such vast numbers that the coup leaders fled in fear. That's not a riot of course. Mass expressions of protest and even angry riots do make governments aware that there is only so far they can go but no further. There has never been a single democratic freedom that was obtained without a fight of some sort - none was ever 'given' - they had all to be demanded. Right now all our freedoms are being taken away again - employment rights, rights of peaceful protest, rights of privacy while at the same time a massive economic burden is being imposed on the business sectors and individuals who have no responsibility for the filthy prictices of the financial markets and the political class who facilitated them at every turn. It makes my blood boil, for one, to think of the thousands of people thrown out of jobs here and small, profitable businesses that are going to the wall in Ireland while not a single banker, economist or politician has had to lose theirs. Not only that but the banking bailout and recapitalisation plans are not working because the money is only going to subsidise the wrong economic entities. And as has been said to death, meanwhile the people responsible go on enjoying massive salary and other subsidies courtesy of their victims. In the face of that sort of arrogance it's no wonder people are angry enough to riot, imo.

Plenty of dictators have fallen when masses of people have taken to the streets in a disciplined way, and when someone was ready to take responsibility for government. Riots are the opposite to that - I was watching TV film of the Los Angeles riots last week and saw a looter taking clothes from a dry cleaner, with the owner saying " what are you doing - those are your neighbour's clothes". The rich don't pay for riots. They are just a gesture of powerless frustration. In Greece, I think there is much more going on than just riots, and it is very much a media exercise to make it look as though there is a total breakdown of order and no coherent opposition.

It comes naturally to the media to do this, as in it's not a conspiracy or anything. But we can't be too downbeat as there's always more of 'us' than 'them'...

Media alternatives like internet boards/blogs, 'citizen journalism', Indymedia, the Real News Network, Znet, Democracy Now, etc are a start at providing access to alternative sources of information that are not monopolised by the corporate sector or the government, and some are even now moving to cable/tv.
Some of the best analysis, say of the American election could be found from these outlets and I don't think you'd need to be on the left to see that. Having said that they have yet to tap into the wide demographic seen on the streets during the war in Iraq protests.

But I think the mask of impartiality and diversity of the mainstream media has really very visibly slipped this year.

You don't need to be as well informed as many people on this forum to see the point being made, when you look at what line BBC newsnight (for a 'flagship' 'liberal' example), took during the Georgian, er, invasion, or the one-sided analysis of the economic crisis, ( the Irish site, mediabite, were very good on this http://www.mediabite.org/article_The-Media-and-the-Banking-Bailout_679566551.html ) by Primetime and the Irish media, or the curious fixation on the democratic worthiness of Zimbabwe served with a heavy side helping of humanitarian imperialism by bomber-'left' decents (hardened 'veterans' of the Iraq invasion, natch), or more recently on the environment etc

and now the mainstream media analysis of what's going on in Greece, is almost non-existent. The lights not being shun there. It's just a riot...just a riot.

One of the real stumbling blocks to progress, is an undemocratic and biased media. Invariably biased due to ownership (corporate and state) and the varying filtering processes (see Chomsky, just switch on the news etc).

A related stumbling block is a clear vision for the future, coming from the disparate dissenting groups, where people can see that they would be better off, in terms of say the environment or their everyday working lives, than with the business as usual status quo.

Meanwhile the minority interests which clearly control the media in our polyarchies* do the unsurprising thing in such a context, and divided and conquer, obfuscate, and, well, downright lie.



*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyarchy#Characteristics

Quote :

In a discussion of contemporary British foreign policy, Mark Curtis stated that "Polyarchy is generally what British leaders mean when they speak of promoting 'democracy' abroad. This is a system in which a small group actually rules and mass participation is confined to choosing leaders in elections managed by competing elites." [6]

http://www.medialens.org/about/the_point.php
We did not expect the Soviet Communist Party's newspaper Pravda to tell the truth about the Communist Party, why should we expect the corporate press to tell the truth about corporate power?

Heard on tv news that there were 800 "establishments" (schools and colleges?) were occupied in Greece. Has anyone got any news?

cactus flower wrote:

Heard on tv news that there were 800 "establishments" (schools and colleges?) were occupied in Greece. Has anyone got any news?

Haven't heard anything but just checked on Newsnow but nothing -- http://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/World+News/Europe/Western/Greece

Isn't there a big demonstration organised for the 9th or something ? Which channel did you hear that on ?

cactus flower wrote:

Heard on tv news that there were 800 "establishments" (schools and colleges?) were occupied in Greece. Has anyone got any news?

Cancel, for life, free education and/or social welfare payments for anyone still occupying schools or colleges after 1.00pm, @ 2.00pm send in the lollypop ladies to clear out anybody still there, restart the education system @ 9.00am tomorrow.
What it lacks in liberal thinking it makes up for in decisiveness, what do you think?

tonys wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Heard on tv news that there were 800 "establishments" (schools and colleges?) were occupied in Greece. Has anyone got any news?

Cancel, for life, free education and/or social welfare payments for anyone still occupying schools or colleges after 1.00pm, @ 2.00pm send in the lollypop ladies to clear out anybody still there, restart the education system @ 9.00am tomorrow.
What it lacks in liberal thinking it makes up for in decisiveness, what do you think?

For a moment I thought I was on the Gaza thread, and was going to say, not necessary, as they have already bombed them.

Riots break out in Greece again last night. It was thought that the rioters had had enough after the last spate burned out but this was sparked off during a demonstration over an incident concerning a Bulgarian immigrant worker.

The Bulgarian woman who was working at a Government office for a sub-contractor had appealed against unfair wages but was assaulted by a gang and burned with acid.

1min 57 sec - BBC