cactus flower wrote:

A second referendum seems inevitable. I'm starting this thread, with the idea that the Lisbon Treaty can be discussed here in a Libertas/Ganley-free environment. In fairness, you are asked also to keep any party political pointscoring out of the thread and focus on the merits of the case. This is not intended to exclude any discussion of or by Libertas - there are a number of threads already running where that can take place.

But you though you would mention them specifically anyway. Jesus, you're so blinded by your own crazy irrational fear of a Libertas monster you've created in your own mind it's actually quite funny.

In fairness Cookie, Libertas is a contentious subject in the context of Lisbon. So a specific mention was most likely warranted. The OP was simply to direct the thread towards discussion of the second referendum and the issues therein, not the parties involved.

I would not try to read anything more into it than that.

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

In fairness Cookie, Libertas is a contentious subject in the context of Lisbon. So a specific mention was most likely warranted. The OP was simply to direct the thread towards discussion of the second referendum and the issues therein, not the parties involved.

I would not try to read anything more into it than that.

My ass! "This thread isn't intended to discuss specific party/organisation impacts on the treaty..." would have been more apt if it was "simply to direct the thread towards discussion of the second referendum and the issues therein, not the parties involved". Indeed the OP could have said just that rather than specifically mentioning the one player in the debate which this site and the poster and moderator who wrote the first post has a particular dislike of. Bloody typical behaviour from this place anyway.

build a bridge

Well Cookie, I read back over the thread, and clearly the direction given in the OP has done the job. Until now that is ..

If the government achieve those kind of safeguards and scoff a big heap of humble pie at the start of the campaign then there is a good chance that they'll pass this thing. I reckon that the middle class will come out in force this time as well. Any polls coming up?

Yet, I don't understand how they can have binding agreements like those above without modifiying the treaty document.

I agree. Has anyone got a link to a list of the guarantees agreed?

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Yet, I don't understand how they can have binding agreements like those above without modifiying the treaty document.

They can't. The Treaty is unchanged. But I think with each of these Treaties there have been some of these little nods in the direction of various nations concerns. I don't know if any of them have ever been tested in the Courts though.

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Well Cookie, I read back over the thread, and clearly the direction given in the OP has done the job. Until now that is ..

Well if the post wasn't tainted with biased nonsense the issue wouldn't exist and couldn't be highlighted.

cactus flower wrote:

A second referendum seems inevitable. I'm starting this thread, with the idea that the Lisbon Treaty can be discussed here in a Libertas/Ganley-free environment. In fairness, you are asked also to keep any party political pointscoring out of the thread and focus on the merits of the case. This is not intended to exclude any discussion of or by Libertas - there are a number of threads already running where that can take place.

The idea of the thread is that is should focus on the content of the Treaty, and any arguments or reasons based on the Treaty and any associated proposed arrangements as to why people might shift their position from Yes to No or vice versa.

I don't understand where the bias is in this statement. Is it just because it happens to mention Libertas? Cookie, I don't think there is a sinister motive here.

unaligned wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

A second referendum seems inevitable. I'm starting this thread, with the idea that the Lisbon Treaty can be discussed here in a Libertas/Ganley-free environment. In fairness, you are asked also to keep any party political pointscoring out of the thread and focus on the merits of the case. This is not intended to exclude any discussion of or by Libertas - there are a number of threads already running where that can take place.

The idea of the thread is that is should focus on the content of the Treaty, and any arguments or reasons based on the Treaty and any associated proposed arrangements as to why people might shift their position from Yes to No or vice versa.

I don't understand where the bias is in this statement. Is it just because it happens to mention Libertas? Cookie, I don't think there is a sinister motive here.

I thought cactus' post was intended to indicate this thread should not become another discussion of Libertas.

ibis wrote:

unaligned wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

A second referendum seems inevitable. I'm starting this thread, with the idea that the Lisbon Treaty can be discussed here in a Libertas/Ganley-free environment. In fairness, you are asked also to keep any party political pointscoring out of the thread and focus on the merits of the case. This is not intended to exclude any discussion of or by Libertas - there are a number of threads already running where that can take place.

The idea of the thread is that is should focus on the content of the Treaty, and any arguments or reasons based on the Treaty and any associated proposed arrangements as to why people might shift their position from Yes to No or vice versa.

I don't understand where the bias is in this statement. Is it just because it happens to mention Libertas? Cookie, I don't think there is a sinister motive here.

I thought cactus' post was intended to indicate this thread should not become another discussion of Libertas.

Yep it's fine, another Ganley-is-Satan-fest is really not necessary, so bored of them now.

Squire. The US at inception was supposed to be a collection of 13 independent countries. Money was federalised if you will and the states made their own laws except for treason and counterfeiting and I believe piracy. But you want the EU to prevent say France and Germany going to war or maybe Flanders and Walloons.

Cactus you are in favour because you want a progressive society. Why not join a far left party and make Ireland socialist. You recognise it costs money so you want rich Germans to pay Irish dole. Time now to get rid of the dole as the Germans are broke.

People can't buy the groceries and it is simple to know why.

Most won't admit that they just want the money.

youngdan wrote:

Squire. The US at inception was supposed to be a collection of 13 independent countries. Money was federalised if you will and the states made their own laws except for treason and counterfeiting and I believe piracy. But you want the EU to prevent say France and Germany going to war or maybe Flanders and Walloons.

Cactus you are in favour because you want a progressive society. Why not join a far left party and make Ireland socialist. You recognise it costs money so you want rich Germans to pay Irish dole. Time now to get rid of the dole as the Germans are broke.

People can't buy the groceries and it is simple to know why.

Most won't admit that they just want the money.

Ireland is too small and too dependent to be socialist. Your idea of a pan-european socialist party is more viable altogether.

If anything it is too big to be socialist. The bigger the more waste.

What Ireland needs is 25 counties run by Cactus and one run as a free market economy. Even Mayo would do fine.

youngdan wrote:

If anything it is too big to be socialist. The bigger the more waste.

What Ireland needs is 25 counties run by Cactus and one run as a free market economy. Even Mayo would do fine.

I would let Mayo run the rest under the New Economic Policy.

Anyhow, there are 32 counties.

Mayo would be independent, I am singing the national anthem
here in an early gathering of the MRA. TIOCAIGH AR LA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWVfKnwkwzc

while I take on board everyone's concerns about the lack of democracy inherent in Lisbon, I also think it is highly dangerous that the Treaty rests on the vote of a tiny minority of citizens that may be strongly influenced by the machinations of their immediate neighbours, most likely those to the East and West. We should not get to hold the rest of Europe to ransom, nor should the economic future of Europe's 400 odd million citizens be decided by shadowy political interest groups whose funding sources are less transparent than the bank accounts of EVERY ex taoiseach we have EVER had.
While the Treaty has its flaws, I dread to think, in the current economic environment, about what will happen to all of Europe if we don't pass it.

We need to worry about energy security and the parlous state of our economies, NOT Lisbon, so let's pass it and MOVE ON

And, just a spot of food for thought here, but the UK times headlined yesterday with the parlous state of the Sterling Euro exchange rate and speculation that the BoE may be forced towards the printing presses (yes Youngdan, we know you predicted this...)

Just look at the UK and US economies; elements of their political infrastructure would LOVE us to give Lisbon the boot, but do you think they'll be able to bail us out afterwards??? Especially if they start closely resembling Weimar Germany??

I'm with Peer Steinbruek all the way.....

And I know that many will accuse me of panicking, but, sometimes panic is appropriate.

expat girl wrote:

I also think it is highly dangerous that the Treaty rests on the vote of a tiny minority of citizens that may be strongly influenced by the machinations of their immediate neighbours, most likely those to the East and West. We should not get to hold the rest of Europe to ransom

If the people of Europe were all allowed to vote on the future of their own sovereign nations, then we 'tiny minority' in Ireland would be in no position to 'hold the rest of Europe to ransom', whatever that means (I wasn't aware we were demanding money with menaces or anything like that). It's hardly our fault that we are the only ones being allowed a say. But I suppose that's the 'democratic' nature of the EU for you, it is our fault that we are asked to vote and the other peoples aren't, isn't it?...

My two cents.

To be perfectly honest - I don't understand how the Government can go ahead with another referendum without a mandate to do so from the people. As a Yes voter and campaigner last time out - the result was pretty cut and dried - whatever you might think of the motives of the No campaign and the voters for falling for it and why they voted No. If they want to run the Lisbon Treaty by us again - then I think its beholden on them to hold a General Election and for the Pro Lisbon parties to make it part of their manifesto that they will hold a rerun - then we'll see whether the people want another go at this or want to go a different route and would also flesh out the bonafides of Libertas and the like..........If this referendum is re-held in the absence of such a mandate and/or Libertas, Sinn Fein,Coir etc etc make major gains in the Euro Elections next year - then I think they would be staking on very thin ice - FG would want to be very very careful how they approach this.

Anyway - whats up with Cookie? - has he departed these shores? and who put the electric eel down his boxers to the degree he has taken such a passionate dislike to this place? - I assume (cos I've only been popping in now and again in recent times) it had something to do with Libertas - man - there I was questioning his cynicism over all things political and there he goes taking to Libertas like a convert to Born again evangelism or a rabid FF'er (present company excepted , Zhou and Tonys!) - suppose its something to be thankful for - hope he comes back - not enough Right wingers in this joint!

That said - have a good evening folks - Im off to the doctors to get the stitches out of my nose then off to the pub for a few quiet ones with the auld lad -went hunting last weekend with the local hunt - first time in ages - and Like Brian Cowen with the Irish Electorate in the Lisbon Referendum - myself and the horse had a last-minute serious difference of opinion on whether we could jump a gate - he refused - I went airborne and ended up with a bloody nose among several more aches and pains -and the nag just stood there laughing at me.

Ahh - the joys of country living

youngdan wrote:

I find this love for Europe weird
but I am willing to learn

Is it just about money. If anyone has another reason that does not come to mind can they mention it.

It's to do with the fact that under the EU we have enjoyed the longest stretch of peace time in Europe since the time of Pax Romana. It's also the cultural links which have been only possible as part of a community of European states. The EU is also essential for the tackling of transnational issues like terrorism, crime, climate change and poverty. Europe is also about protecting human rights, civil liberties, working conditions and equal standards. The money from EU funds and from the freedom of markets in Europe are great but Europe is about so much more than that.

Edo wrote:

My two cents.

To be perfectly honest - I don't understand how the Government can go ahead with another referendum without a mandate to do so from the people. As a Yes voter and campaigner last time out - the result was pretty cut and dried - whatever you might think of the motives of the No campaign and the voters for falling for it and why they voted No. If they want to run the Lisbon Treaty by us again - then I think its beholden on them to hold a General Election and for the Pro Lisbon parties to make it part of their manifesto that they will hold a rerun - then we'll see whether the people want another go at this or want to go a different route and would also flesh out the bonafides of Libertas and the like..........If this referendum is re-held in the absence of such a mandate and/or Libertas, Sinn Fein,Coir etc etc make major gains in the Euro Elections next year - then I think they would be staking on very thin ice - FG would want to be very very careful how they approach this.

I don't know whether the general electorate actually feels the outrage (or 'outrage' in some cases) expressed by the more politically inclined. Repeat referendums are a feature of Irish politics - I don't think the man in the street is either surprised or particularly outraged.

To my mind the mandate the government has is that our fellow EU members still want a ratification, and the government's duty is to try and keep both them and us happy. The ideal way of doing that is to explain in sufficient detail this time why ratification is good for Ireland, and successfully persuade us to vote Yes. They completely failed to make the case last time, but was for want of even trying, and that, to me, means they should try again, and try properly.

That it's politically damaging for them is just tough - they should have pulled the finger out first time round.

Edo wrote:

Anyway - whats up with Cookie? - has he departed these shores? and who put the electric eel down his boxers to the degree he has taken such a passionate dislike to this place? - I assume (cos I've only been popping in now and again in recent times) it had something to do with Libertas - man - there I was questioning his cynicism over all things political and there he goes taking to Libertas like a convert to Born again evangelism or a rabid FF'er (present company excepted , Zhou and Tonys!) - suppose its something to be thankful for - hope he comes back - not enough Right wingers in this joint!

He's currently in a tempestuous love affair with Libertas, and the object of his affections cannot be even slightly slighted without provoking his jealous rage. I've done it myself, but at least it was over a woman rather than a bald pink Galwegian.

Edo wrote:

That said - have a good evening folks - Im off to the doctors to get the stitches out of my nose then off to the pub for a few quiet ones with the auld lad -went hunting last weekend with the local hunt - first time in ages - and Like Brian Cowen with the Irish Electorate in the Lisbon Referendum - myself and the horse had a last-minute serious difference of opinion on whether we could jump a gate - he refused - I went airborne and ended up with a bloody nose among several more aches and pains -and the nag just stood there laughing at me.

Ahh - the joys of country living

Nature red in tooth and nose.

Expat. You assume that passing Lisbon would alter the economic system.

The problem is that governments spend more than they take in. Therefore inflation.

Some say free dentures for grannies is a human right. Well so is Santa bringing toys

Anyway the dreamers are afraid to wake up.

Did you read where the B of I was going to turn to "quantitive easing". Ireland did this in the eighties but that is no longer an option thanks to that lug from Clara