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 The Chavez Thread - he's worth it

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PostSubject: Re: The Chavez Thread - he's worth it   The Chavez Thread - he's worth it - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 18, 2009 12:42 am

cookiemonster wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Any sources for any of that, Cookiemonster ?

My brain.

That's a relief.
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PostSubject: Re: The Chavez Thread - he's worth it   The Chavez Thread - he's worth it - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 18, 2009 12:59 am

cactus flower wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Any sources for any of that, Cookiemonster ?

My brain.

That's a relief.

I'd hate for you to be worried so I added some links.
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PostSubject: Re: The Chavez Thread - he's worth it   The Chavez Thread - he's worth it - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 18, 2009 1:31 am

cookiemonster wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Any sources for any of that, Cookiemonster ?

My brain.

That's a relief.

I'd hate for you to be worried so I added some links.

That's very good of you cookie.

In one of your links says that the poverty rate tripled from the seventies to the nineties - a bit of context here:

Quote :
The huge public spending and accumulation of internal and external debts by the government and private sector during the Petrodollar years of the 1970s and early 1980s, followed by the collapse of oil prices during the 1980s, crippled the Venezuelan economy. As the government devalued the currency in order to face its mounting local and non-local financial obligations, Venezuelans' real standard of living fell dramatically. A number of failed economic policies and increasing corruption in government and society at large, has led to rising poverty and crime and worsening social indicators and increasing political instability,[15] resulting in two major coup attempts in 1992.

Your link also said the poverty rate has fallen under Chavez.

Would it be quibbling to mention that going up 50% is not doubling, and that the food price increase was after food price controls were removed to encourage production? Big food price increases are never good. There were world shortages last year, this year there is a much bigger supply.

They have plenty of problems, that goes without saying, but if their economy only contracts 2% this year they'll be doing better than us.
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PostSubject: Re: The Chavez Thread - he's worth it   The Chavez Thread - he's worth it - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 18, 2009 1:42 am

Sure, if we start murdering each other in record numbers too we'll be laughing.
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PostSubject: Re: The Chavez Thread - he's worth it   The Chavez Thread - he's worth it - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 18, 2009 1:53 am

Should we hold the US as the alter image of Venezuela as the US is the bastion of free enterprise.

The US can't raid its treasury because the US govt has been a debtor nation for decades. It's taken to printing script but that's alright because billions have been wiped off every type of asset you care to name.

Obtaining reliable statisitical information has become very hard since GDP, inflation and jobless figures are manipulated. However, this has spawned an entire cottage industry which tries to extrapolate the "real" figures. Free market Capitalism at its best.

If one ever wants to study the utterly bizzare and arcane, they need look no further than US accounting standards for big business.

Bankrupt financial services centre in New York.

Gun crime of horrific proportions. 10's of thousands murdered every year. Jails overflowing. (Last Friday a Yahoo article highlighted that two NY judges had taken bribes from a privately run borstal to give kids longer sentences so the borstal could make more money from the govt. One kid, whose friend had shop lifted, was sentenced to 3 mos as an accomplice.)

Over 40 million Americans live below the "official" poverty line and millions more are joining every year.

Infrastructure across the country in need of replacement or upgrades but left to rot because the funds are not available.

Senators and other US officials spending time in jail or in courts over corruption charges.

California bankrupt and other states teetering on the brink.

Declining manufacturing base - especially in the auto industry. The Michigan governor is on record saying that her state has been in perpetual recession for over a decade. Trillions poored into bankrupt banks but a few measely billion for the auto industry, where real goods are made, has to be scrutinised with a near forensic alacrity.

Invaded two sovereign nations with the results that 10's of thousands have died. Many US combat troops in need of counseling and drugs to cope with the experience, not the mention their own dead.

Home grown Nazi parties, KKK and other assorted lunatics rampant.

The list could go on.

Hell, one might even find a fault or two about Ireland.


Last edited by rockyracoon on Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Chavez Thread - he's worth it   The Chavez Thread - he's worth it - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 18, 2009 1:55 am

rockyracoon wrote:
repeat
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PostSubject: Re: The Chavez Thread - he's worth it   The Chavez Thread - he's worth it - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 18, 2009 8:42 am

You didn't mention this, Cookiemonster

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060353.html

Chavez condemns attack on Caracas synagogue, blames opposition

By Haaretz Service and The Associated Press

Quote :
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez on Sunday condemned an attack on a Caracas synagogue amid tense relations with Israel, suggesting it was plotted by opposition leaders to tarnish his self-styled socialist revolution.

Armed men broke into a synagogue in Venezuela's capital late on Friday night, destroying religious objects and spray-painting walls in what Jewish leaders called the worst attack ever on their community in Venezuela.

The socialist leader last month expelled the Israeli ambassador and cut diplomatic ties in protest over the military campaign in Gaza that killed nearly 1,300 people.
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"We condemn the actions on the synagogue of Caracas," Chavez said in a televised speech on Sunday. "It must be asked ... who benefits from these violent incidents. It is not the government, nor the people, nor the revolution
."

Im not sure that there were such strong condemnations from the British, German and French Heads of State, where there were also attacks on Synagogues during the Gaza attack.

Good to hear you come out against anti semitism Cookiemonster


Last edited by cactus flower on Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:03 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Mention of poster's connection with Anti-Semitism in another context deleted - cf)
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PostSubject: Re: The Chavez Thread - he's worth it   The Chavez Thread - he's worth it - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 18, 2009 10:51 am

cactus flower wrote:
You didn't mention this, Cookiemonster

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060353.html

Chavez condemns attack on Caracas synagogue, blames opposition

By Haaretz Service and The Associated Press

Quote :
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez on Sunday condemned an attack on a Caracas synagogue amid tense relations with Israel, suggesting it was plotted by opposition leaders to tarnish his self-styled socialist revolution.
."

Yeah, he balmed the opposition, how very... predictable.


Quote :

Good to hear you come out against anti semitism Cookiemonster, but how does that sit with your membership of Libertas? One of Libertas' seven "signatories" for Libertas as an EU registered organisation is a leading member of both these antisemitic parties - both the main party and the youth wing -
Any chance you could stick to the one subject rather than running around like a wild headless chicken trying to bash Libertas with everything and anything you can?
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PostSubject: Re: The Chavez Thread - he's worth it   The Chavez Thread - he's worth it - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 18, 2009 10:59 am

cookiemonster wrote:


cactus flower wrote:

,,, membership of Libertas? One of Libertas' seven "signatories" for Libertas as an EU registered ,,,
Any chance you could ,,, Libertas


affraid
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PostSubject: Re: The Chavez Thread - he's worth it   The Chavez Thread - he's worth it - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 18, 2009 12:51 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
Quote :

Good to hear you come out against anti semitism Cookiemonster, but how does that sit with your membership of Libertas? One of Libertas' seven "signatories" for Libertas as an EU registered organisation is a leading member of both these antisemitic parties - both the main party and the youth wing -
Any chance you could stick to the one subject rather than running around like a wild headless chicken trying to bash Libertas with everything and anything you can?
Seconded. Very much off-topic, even had the thread been about Venezuelan anti-Semitism.
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PostSubject: Re: The Chavez Thread - he's worth it   The Chavez Thread - he's worth it - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 18, 2009 1:14 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
You didn't mention this, Cookiemonster

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060353.html

Chavez condemns attack on Caracas synagogue, blames opposition

By Haaretz Service and The Associated Press

Quote :
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez on Sunday condemned an attack on a Caracas synagogue amid tense relations with Israel, suggesting it was plotted by opposition leaders to tarnish his self-styled socialist revolution.
."

Yeah, he balmed the opposition, how very... predictable.

?

If you read the material you posted on Chavez you will know that it was quite clear that there was no evidence of any description to connect Chavez or his government with the vandalism of a synagogue.
The incident happened in the middle of the bombardment of Gaza and shortly after Chavez gave the Israeli Embassy staff 72 hours to leave Venezuela. This was one of the very few serious acts undertaken against the Israeli bombardment/invasion by any State and was celebrated in Gaza. A few days later this vandal attack took place.

If it was ordered by Chavez, it was atrocious of him, but at the moment there is no evidence that it was. His suggestion that it was a "black flag" job can not be ruled out.

I've deleted the L word from my previous post, and you're welcome to delete from your nested quote of it if you want to.
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PostSubject: Re: The Chavez Thread - he's worth it   The Chavez Thread - he's worth it - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 18, 2009 1:37 pm

Quote :
Any chance you could stick to the one subject rather than running around like a wild headless chicken trying to bash Libertas with everything and anything you can?
In fairness cookie I'm sure you can appreciate having to defend a man against a buckshot blast of wild and varied smears and accusations?


Last edited by evercloserunion on Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Chavez Thread - he's worth it   The Chavez Thread - he's worth it - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 18, 2009 1:40 pm

cactus flower wrote:

If it was ordered by Chavez, it was atrocious of him, but at the moment there is no evidence that it was. His suggestion that it was a "black flag" job can not be ruled out.
As far as I can see, there's no reason to blame Chavez or the opposition.
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PostSubject: Re: The Chavez Thread - he's worth it   The Chavez Thread - he's worth it - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 18, 2009 1:43 pm

905 wrote:
cactus flower wrote:

If it was ordered by Chavez, it was atrocious of him, but at the moment there is no evidence that it was. His suggestion that it was a "black flag" job can not be ruled out.
As far as I can see, there's no reason to blame Chavez or the opposition.

Agreed. Its a known unknown. We have no evidence either way.
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PostSubject: Re: The Chavez Thread - he's worth it   The Chavez Thread - he's worth it - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 18, 2009 2:45 pm

905 wrote:
cactus flower wrote:

If it was ordered by Chavez, it was atrocious of him, but at the moment there is no evidence that it was. His suggestion that it was a "black flag" job can not be ruled out.
As far as I can see, there's no reason to blame Chavez or the opposition.

The attacks on the Ateneo de Caracas CUntural Centre were very much linked to Chavez though, which seems to have been ignored. Incidentally the Ateneo was involved in launching Chavez's political career after the failed coup d'etat in 1992. Of course the opposition were using it so it had to be closed down... for teh greater good.

I've no problem with a stable and ligitimat open democratic socialist government (apart from not being a socialist that is, but if that's what the people want and it is actually ligitimate, open and democratic), but Venezuela is anything but and it's based on nothing more solid than the venezuela's reserves of oil and the price thereof, which is not very stable at all, the rest of the economy is tanking and almost everybody in the county is relaint on the Government, once their ability to keep supporting the people begins to fail (and the deminishing of the national reserves suggests that it is) the country, which is already one of the most violent in the world, will fall apart.
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PostSubject: Re: The Chavez Thread - he's worth it   The Chavez Thread - he's worth it - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 18, 2009 3:15 pm

Here's an update on both attacks:

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90852/6588486.html

Quote :
Venezuela has detained 11 people, among them seven police officers, for attacking a synagogue in the capital Caracas last month, authorities said.

Luisa Ortega Diaz, director of the Venezuelan General Prosecutor's Office, said seven policemen and four civilians had been detained for their alleged involvement in the attack.

Amid an apparent rise in anti-Semitic sentiment in Venezuela following Israel's military offensive in the Gaza Strip, an armed group of 15 vandalized the oldest synagogue in the capital on Jan.30 in what Jewish leaders called the worst attack on their community in the country.

The detentions were made after President Hugo Chavez declared Saturday he was against such "counter-revolutionary criminals."

Chavez ordered the Prosecutor's Office to detain Valentin Santana, leader of the pro-Chavez group La Piedrita, who was blamed for conspiring in the attacks on the synagogue and the Apostolic Nunciature in Venezuela.

Santanta was also blamed for the attacks on the main cultural complex El Ateneo de Caracas and the TV channel Globovision, and of making death threats against many businessmen and opposition politicians.

"That person (Santana) must be detained. Nobody here can threaten anybody with death," Chavez said, adding his government would not allow destabilizing acts to be committed in the country
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PostSubject: Re: The Chavez Thread - he's worth it   The Chavez Thread - he's worth it - Page 2 EmptyThu Feb 19, 2009 10:25 pm

cactus flower wrote:
They have plenty of problems, that goes without saying, but if their economy only contracts 2% this year they'll be doing better than us.

I think the Venezuelan economy has been the most prosperous in the Latin American region since Chavez has been in power?
Stiglitz has consistently supported Chavez's economic policies*.

It seems like from an impartial developmental standpoint Chavez is doing all the right things whether one is a capitalist or a socialist or whatever.


*

Joseph Stiglitz, in Caracas, Praises Venezuela’s Economic Policies
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/node/2719
Quote :

"Venezuela's economic growth has been very impressive in the last few years," Stiglitz said during his speech at a forum on Strategies for
Emerging Markets sponsored by the Bank of Venezuela.

Venezuela, the fourth largest exporter of crude oil to the United States, has experienced the highest economic growth rate in Latin
America in recent years, with fifteen successive quarters of expansion and looks set to close the year with 8-9% growth.


[....]

In his latest book "Making Globalization Work," Stiglitz argues that left governments such as in Venezuela, "have frequently been castigated
and called ‘populist' because they promote the distribution of benefits of education and health to the poor."

"It is not only important to have sustainable growth," Stiglitz continued during his speech, "but to ensure the best distribution of economic growth, for the benefit of all citizens."

Although Stiglitz praised Venezuela's "positive policies" in areas of health and education and policies to promote economic diversification,
he assured that Venezuela still faces the challenge of overcoming structural problems associated with an economy overwhelmingly geared
towards oil production.

Redistributive policies are having a positive macro effect in Venezuela and the oil industry is but a part of that.

also
Nobel economist endorses Chávez regional bank plan


http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/oct/12/venezuela.banking


Quote :
The Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz has endorsed an ambitious plan by Venezuela's president, Hugo Chávez, to create a
pan-regional bank for Latin America. Professor Stiglitz, a Washington insider and former World Bank chief economist, said the Bank of the
South would benefit the region and give a welcome shakeup to western lending institutions.The bank, known in Spanish as Banco del
Sur, is due to be founded next month in Venezuela's capital, Caracas, with start-up capital of up to $7bn from seven South American
countries. It represents a victory for Mr Chávez, who conceived the project and drove it through numerous obstacles. Mr Chávez, a
self-described socialist revolutionary, argued that the bank would wean the region off Washington-dominated prescriptions and help to deliver
economic independence....
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