[Poll] ESB - to invest 22 billion in renewables / Bord Gáis Enters Electricity Market 18/02/2009

tags: How much was your Jan. electricity bill?

Recently the Minister put on hold plans to take the Grid away from the ESB and re-install it in a new company called Eirgrid in an effort to introduce cheaper, greener energy into the system but the ESB are opposed to the removal of this asset from their possession which would have as a consequence their relegation to supplier-status instead of grid monopoliser. Is this some sort of trade-off?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhojeyidsnsn/

The Irish Times
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0327/breaking61.htm

The ESB
http://www.esb.ie/main/news_events/press_release337.jsp

wtf will the €22 billion come from? Dat's a lodda dosh. Is it really a b?

Thats between now and 2020 I think.

Okey.

The Eirgrid separation is hardly going to go ahead now, is it? The ESB couldn't borrow that kind of money without serious asset backup don't ye think?

I suppose its a divvy up in preparation for more bloody privatisation. If its anything like telecomms we may all buy candles.

cactus flower wrote:

I suppose its a divvy up in preparation for more bloody privatisation. If its anything like telecomms we may all buy candles.

What I believe should happen is what Ryan is doing or wants to do and that is:

seperate the electricity system into two entities - ALL the power stations, windfarms, solar panels etc. etc. etc. on one side (all private but some could be public to some degree I think - depending on EU competition laws) and the wires and substations on the other side.So that's


a) The entities which supply the power
b) The wires between the entities that supply the power (that's very simply put and how I think of it)

b) will be known as Eirgrid and will belong to the country i.e. it will be a state-owned entity as the telecomms backbone infrastructure should have been. The other entities in a) can do what they want as long as they supply cheap, clean, safe power and in theory should be in competition with each other to supply the best cheap clean safe power - that could be you or I too with a million solar panels stuck onto our houses pumping electrons into the grid - Eirgrid.

The problem is the ESB is a semi-state yoke which owns everything - both a) and b) at present so there is no room for competition - they have a complete monopoly and are in competition with nothing except for a few windfarms which get cribbed about to high feckin heaven

So, it would be good if Eirgrid and the rest of the ESB (the power stations) got seperated and Eirgrid made a state company and the power stations privatised or whatever. The theory is that the market will find it's own level for power suppliers given certain parameters - they must supply clean safe power because they will also be in competition with other suppliers through an interconnector from Britain.

That all could be changed now as Ryan has put on hold his plans for whipping the wires out from under the ESB - I believe they did a deal with each other but I have no proof will the ESB sue me feck it I'll be the Machine Nation One if they do - Weyhey !

The analogy would be the separation of train services from rail lines in the UK, followed by privatisation of both, followed by disaster, followed by realistation that the rail lines needed to be nationalised again?

The train services is the other example which I believe follows the same model and pattern as the telecomms here (everything privatised ffs) and now the electricity grid. They all seem structurally related - permanent structures lying under services fed-in or at end points of the grids or nets common to all of them.

The Greens don't want Eirgrid to be privatised no doubt for the same reason the telecomms infrastructure shouldn't have been privatised... Sinn Fein and the Greens were both talking about getting the Eircom wires back before the election (actually the GP had a feasibility study intention for Eircom on their website)

The bits in between - the wires, the fibre, the tracks should never be privatised - it's handing a monopoly to some crowd on a plate - weyhey !!

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=104&sid=1432247

A UN report is showing a massive increase in investment in renewable energy technology. Does anyone know what Ireland's overall energy strategy is ? - there must be a document.

Spanish firm Endesa have bought 4 irish power stations from the ESB for €450 million

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/esb-picks-spanish-firm-for-euro450m-station-sale-1439116.html

http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/mhsnmhgbkfcw/

A story here about Endesa buying 20% of ESB - is this the same thing?

Still not got a reply from Minister Ryan about the Grid, and what contstraints exist to buying from renewable sources.

This was announced in the 2007 budget was it not ?

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

This was announced in the 2007 budget was it not ?

Breaking News "broke" it again today. Is this the most frequently broken news story of our day? Do they think it is so boring that we won't notice it?

Did we reallly have to buy loads of NDP stickers for every bus in Dublin ? Sheesh.

They had a discussion on the Pin the other day about "Why electricity isn't cheaper" which is a lovely question and again something I'd see as an opportunity or a weakness. The opportunity is in finding out why it isn't cheaper and giving ourselves a little project to make it cheaper.

Yes, I do believe that things like utilities should get cheaper, ideally FREE if at all possible - or at least we should be aiming for a condition where there is a lot less work and cost involved in producing and maintaining electricity output - isn't this the Machines Dividend after all ?

Something isn't quite right about Ireland though and I think they come up with interesting stuff on that Pin thread on this topic

It begins

dipole wrote:

OK. Brent Crude is a 44 dollars a barrel according to Bloomberg.
The Russians have turned back on the tap for natural Gas.
Industry is contracting and demanding less fuel.

Why did my electricity charge per KWh go up further in my last bill?

I can't switch away. The only other supplier is Airtricity who charge the same standing charge and per unit charge is less than 10% cheaper. I don't trust them as a company so I won't switch to them for such small savings.

Focusing rant in to a discussion point:
The Irish Economy can't compete internationally when the bare essentials that people need to survive are so outrageously expensive.

And this is the post I find is on the money - made by someone called "roc"

roc wrote:

Well, the original price increases were introduced to promote 'competition' in the sector. I'm not sure if it's the same reason for these latest increases.

ESB used to sell us electricity very cheaply. They put a small premium on big business to subsidise this low cost household electricity (they made no profit on consumers)

But, when the agenda of 'competition' became de rigeur, ESB was forced to raise prices by the state because other companies could not compete at these prices, obviously.

I have to say that I have had some dealings with ESB over the years, and I have always been impressed by all aspects of how ESB operate, the quality and dedication of their staff (sure they're well looked after - that's probably why they're so good), and the quality of the work they have done for this country, and continue to carry on.

There's a fair bit free today:

It is possible that lecky is so expensive precisely BECAUSE they are spending 22bn on renewables.

It really comes down to this; do we want the lights on in some form in 10-20 years time. Someone has to pay for it; do we choose to do that by income tax (as we did when lecky was cheap, but this plan has probably been banjaxed by EU competition strictures), or do we charge the heaviest users more to pay for tomorrow's supply??

expat girl wrote:

It is possible that lecky is so expensive precisely BECAUSE they are spending 22bn on renewables.

Hmmm ... interesting theory. How about a song ?

I am a linesman for the county ...

Quote :

Fury as ESB workers are awarded pay hike
Staff given 3.5pc rise despite average earnings of €76,000

ESB workers, who on average earn more than €76,000, have been given the first 3.5 per cent installment of the National Pay Deal that even union leaders now regard as simply unviable.

The astonishing decision has infuriated business leaders and comes just five months after the semi-state company imposed a 17.5pc increase in electricity prices.

The pay increase will be paid to more than 4,000 craft and general ESB workers and will cost €8.9m a year.

ESB workers are already among the best-paid in the country, earning more than twice the average industrial wage.

Key power station workers earn an average of €92,000, while staff at Poolbeg power plant take home an average of €142,000 a year, according to a 2006 report to the Government by consultants Deloitte.

Energy costs in Ireland are the second highest in Europe.

Read More >>>>
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fury-as-esb-workers-are-awarded-pay-hike-1605911.html

Quote :

Waterford Hoteliers Condemn ESB Wage Increases

Waterford hoteliers have condemned as outrageous the decision by the board of the ESB to pay the 3.5% wage increase under Towards 2016 (the first phase of the transition agreement). The South East branch of the Irish Hotels Federation questions whether the board of the ESB has fully grasped the perilous condition of the Irish economy and calls on the Commission on Energy Regulation (CER) to intervene immediately and instruct the board to reverse its decision and to disallow wage increases in the calculation energy tariffs. It states that any increases would further erode Irish industry's competitiveness, particularly when the focus should now be on seeking whatever means possible to reduce electricity costs.

Damien Lynch, Chairman of the IHF South East Branch said, "The notion that the board of the ESB would consider wage increases at the current juncture demonstrates a stark disconnect with economic reality. The immediate focus must be on providing electricity at the lowest possible cost and reducing existing prices, which are among the highest in Europe." Waterford Today

Boards.ie

etc.

Looks like some machine men have us by the

Quote :

Commission offers €100m for power link to Britain

THE EUROPEAN Commission plans to give more than €100 million to Ireland to strengthen the electricity grid as part of an EU-wide economic stimulus package.

It also wants to offer several million euro in extra money for Irish wind energy projects as part of a €5 billion recovery plan that seeks to boost Europe’s energy security.

A commission source said last night the final list of projects would be debated by the 27 EU commissioners today but the Government had successfully secured the Irish projects.

“The money will be made available for interconnection to strengthen the electricity grid,” said the source, who added that extra money was also available for wind projects.

Eirgrid is expected to be allocated at least €100 million to help it build an east-west interconnector between Ireland and Wales and upgrade the grid. This project is scheduled to start shortly as part of its Grid 25 project to double the capacity of the national grid.

The total cost of the project is estimated at €4 billion, the majority of which will be borne by consumers. The award of EU funds should reduce electricity prices somewhat.

Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin engaged in an intensive lobbying campaign with the commission in recent weeks to ensure Ireland would be included in the €5 billion stimulus package. The package was debated by foreign ministers in Brussels on Monday and they will be asked to agree the details of the commission’s package in coming weeks.

More >>>> Irish Times

We'll probably spend it on pensions though...

Auditor #9 wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

I suppose its a divvy up in preparation for more bloody privatisation. If its anything like telecomms we may all buy candles.

What I believe should happen is what Ryan is doing or wants to do and that is:

seperate the electricity system into two entities - ALL the power stations, windfarms, solar panels etc. etc. etc. on one side (all private but some could be public to some degree I think - depending on EU competition laws) and the wires and substations on the other side.So that's


a) The entities which supply the power
b) The wires between the entities that supply the power (that's very simply put and how I think of it)

b) will be known as Eirgrid and will belong to the country i.e. it will be a state-owned entity as the telecomms backbone infrastructure should have been. The other entities in a) can do what they want as long as they supply cheap, clean, safe power and in theory should be in competition with each other to supply the best cheap clean safe power - that could be you or I too with a million solar panels stuck onto our houses pumping electrons into the grid - Eirgrid.

The problem is the ESB is a semi-state yoke which owns everything - both a) and b) at present so there is no room for competition - they have a complete monopoly and are in competition with nothing except for a few windfarms which get cribbed about to high feckin heaven

So, it would be good if Eirgrid and the rest of the ESB (the power stations) got seperated and Eirgrid made a state company and the power stations privatised or whatever. The theory is that the market will find it's own level for power suppliers given certain parameters - they must supply clean safe power because they will also be in competition with other suppliers through an interconnector from Britain.

That all could be changed now as Ryan has put on hold his plans for whipping the wires out from under the ESB - I believe they did a deal with each other but I have no proof will the ESB sue me feck it I'll be the Machine Nation One if they do - Weyhey !

Ah - I knew I had heard why our electricity is so expensive - it is not because of the workers, or the ESB holding on to stuff - it is mainly because the Regulator has deliberately pushed the price up to "encourage competition" - because Ireland is a small market, it is not really viable to have competition, so the theory is if you push the price up enough it will then become viable for new private companies to set up. Evil lunatic neoliberalism!!!!

johnfás wrote:

We'll probably spend it on pensions though...

I was wondering how much of that will go towards what it should be going towards ....

Auditor #9 wrote:

And this is the post I find is on the money - made by someone called "roc"

roc wrote:

Well, the original price increases were introduced to promote 'competition' in the sector. I'm not sure if it's the same reason for these latest increases.

ESB used to sell us electricity very cheaply. They put a small premium on big business to subsidise this low cost household electricity (they made no profit on consumers)

But, when the agenda of 'competition' became de rigeur, ESB was forced to raise prices by the state because other companies could not compete at these prices, obviously.

I have to say that I have had some dealings with ESB over the years, and I have always been impressed by all aspects of how ESB operate, the quality and dedication of their staff (sure they're well looked after - that's probably why they're so good), and the quality of the work they have done for this country, and continue to carry on.

It certainly is on the money and reminds me of a tribune article which repeats the very same point.

Obsession with privatisation is the real cause of the energy struggle
http://www.tribune.ie/article/2006/may/21/obsession-with-privatisation-is-the-real-cause-of-/?q=obsession%20with%20privatisation

Quote :

....
The assertion that high prices are caused by lack of competition is equally groundless.

Between 2001 and 2004, ESB operating costs, including the purchase of increasingly expensive oil and natural gas, went up by only 5% a year. Meanwhile, electricity prices increased by over 40%. Since the price increase can't be put down to rising fuel costs or some fantasy 'wage racket', what is going on?

The government wants what the authors want in the name of 'competition' and 'liberalising the market' . . . private sector companies producing electricity. But ESB prices have historically been so low that private companies couldn't turn a profit.

To entice private operators, the government increased energy costs through price rises, stealth taxes and levies. People are paying for an ideological experiment in liberalisation and the eventual privatisation of significant sections of ESB.

There's more. Consumers pay an invisible 'investment levy'. Despite the fact that the grid is a resource of vital national importance, the government, unlike those in most other countries, does not provide the capital investment. Instead, the cost is paid through higher electricity bills. Even the Department of Enterprise, Trade & Employment stated that this policy "unnecessarily adds to energy costs and undermines our commercial competitiveness".

The government also adds a public obligation levy, again criticised by ET&E, and higher VAT. Businesses lose competitiveness and householders face higher living costs, all because of the government's ideological obsession with privatisation.

The article was correct to highlight the need to develop native renewable resources.

It is an economic and environmental imperative that we switch from a fossil-fuel based economy to a renewable energy-based one.

But the article painted a backward-looking landscape of competing private companies wholly owning the generation plants. That was tried in Ireland and failed so completely that the government of the time had to establish ESB.

Back in the 1920s, we had a plethora of private companies in the energy market. They made good profits but couldn't do the thing they were supposed to: provide electricity on a national scale.

An epochal shift from fossil fuels will not be carried out by a fragmented and incoherent market. This is not a statist argument. This development can, and where possible should, take place with a range of partners such as private companies, multi-nationals, local authorities and non-profit organisations.

But we will need a substantial player with decades of experience on a national scale. We will need large-scale industrial planning. We will require considerable investment in research, design and integration, especially in the area of wave and tidal power which has even greater potential than wind.

There is one body in existence that can carry that out: ESB.

Rather than selling off an efficient and competitive public enterprise we should harness the skills, productivity and experience of the ESB workforce to make the transition to renewable technologies while maintaining competitive prices.

We need a national vision similar to that being developed in Sweden, which is working for an oil-free economy by 2020. What we don't need are pricing policies and ideological experiments that create obstacles to efficiency and damage business, living standards and our environment......

Is this local lunacy, or is it an EU idea?

the book, DEMOCRACY AND REGULATION: How the Public Can Govern Essential Services

BY GREG PALAST, JERROLD OPPENHEIM, AND THEO MACGREGOR
Pluto Press, London and Virginia
WINNER OF ACLU UPTON SINCLAIR AWARD

outlines how the US regulated system was run and how prices increased
after deregulation and the importation into the US of the Thatcher's UK
privatised market model.

(
also see the site

http://www.democracyandregulation.com/
which is packed full of policy documents on reducing price, regulating the industry and protecting the environment etc)


It shows how prices increased across the board in this respect in every country the model was introduced.

This is the reason why the prices have increased in electricity. It is also the reason for increased instability of supply due to a decrease in repair and upkeep of the networks.

Also, I read an FT article a few years ago which outlined how energy privatisation had resulted in an addiction to natural gas over renewables.

here it is

Liberal markets create an addiction to gas - my article in the Financial Times
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/1/31/163824/717

"Energy market deregulation is incompatible with the fight against global warming – markets like to finance gas plants – and with security of supply when exporters will not play by our rules. There is no reason to expect them to do so at a time of increasing tightness in energy markets. We have solutions available, if we act on demand reduction and promotion of renewable energy. Sadly, we seem to be doing the exact opposite."

Finally, this view that we can't have electricity publicly provided because (to quote expat girl) "this plan has probably been banjaxed by EU competition strictures" is just profoundly undemocratic. If we vote to do it, then we should be able to do so.

Of course that won't go down too well to those in favour of Lisbon which will make things worse in this respect.